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Artillery needs to be removed from the game


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Thornir #121 Posted Sep 15 2017 - 21:04

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View Post1Bourbon1Scotch1Beer, on Sep 15 2017 - 18:58, said:

 

Hurr Durr indeed, you didn't even take the time to read/understand his post, if you're even capable of doing so. Are you such an apologist that you're unable to admit it's even a bit wrong that the actual gameplay effect of artillery is exactly opposite to the stated premise behind artillery's value to the game?  This is not a question of CAN artillery be avoided, it's HOW it can be avoided. When that answer is camping and playing ineffective and UNFUN redline positions, especially in tanks for which that playstyle completely ruin their effectiveness, there is clearly a problem.  

I did read his post. I understood his post. Heard it dozens of times before.

 

You sit still spotted for six seconds, something is going to hit you. Camping is on you. Good players don't do it. 



1Bourbon1Scotch1Beer #122 Posted Sep 15 2017 - 21:57

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View PostThornir, on Sep 15 2017 - 20:04, said:

I did read his post. I understood his post. Heard it dozens of times before.

 

You sit still spotted for six seconds, something is going to hit you. Camping is on you. Good players don't do it. 

 

No you clearly don't get it. Let me walk you through this - what is the best way to not get spotted? 



Thornir #123 Posted Sep 15 2017 - 22:13

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View Post1Bourbon1Scotch1Beer, on Sep 15 2017 - 21:57, said:

 

No you clearly don't get it. Let me walk you through this - what is the best way to not get spotted? 

 

No no, allow me! Anyone that exposes themselves long enough to get arty shot is going to get shot, period. Making " an aggressive move" sounds great, but if it's done in plain sight, someone - arty, TD, LT, whatever - is going to blat you. You don't get to build a case 

That it's wrong if "only" arty can hit you; arty is part of the list of tanks that's going to blat you if you stay exposed too long. 



thejoker91 #124 Posted Sep 15 2017 - 22:23

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View PostThornir, on Sep 15 2017 - 18:13, said:

 

No no, allow me! Anyone that exposes themselves long enough to get arty shot is going to get shot, period. Making " an aggressive move" sounds great, but if it's done in plain sight, someone - arty, TD, LT, whatever - is going to blat you. You don't get to build a case 

That it's wrong if "only" arty can hit you; arty is part of the list of tanks that's going to blat you if you stay exposed too long. 

 

Except, you know, for all the situations where you fire, retreat behind a hill, where NO TANK CAN HIT YOU. And Bum, you get artied.

There are a million ways to break direct LoS with enemy tanks. But since arty doesnt require LoS, leaving hard cover means you get artied.-



1Bourbon1Scotch1Beer #125 Posted Sep 15 2017 - 22:30

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View PostThornir, on Sep 15 2017 - 21:13, said:

 

No no, allow me! Anyone that exposes themselves long enough to get arty shot is going to get shot, period. Making " an aggressive move" sounds great, but if it's done in plain sight, someone - arty, TD, LT, whatever - is going to blat you. You don't get to build a case 

That it's wrong if "only" arty can hit you; arty is part of the list of tanks that's going to blat you if you stay exposed too long. 

 

Your blinders are on so tight, like a child sticking his fingers in his ears... I never said it was wrong that arty can hit you in places other tanks can't, this ability and the exceptional range are literally the only two advantages of artillery. The issue is that the only way to nullify the threat of artillery is to CAMP and NEVER be spotted. This is exactly opposite of the touted "purpose" of artillery as a gameplay mechanic. THAT is what is broken. I guess if you enjoy that playstyle and would prefer to promote a completely passive game more power to you; I would argue that this is very detrimental to the enjoyment the vast majority of players look to receive from playing this game. 

Thornir #126 Posted Sep 16 2017 - 01:03

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View Post1Bourbon1Scotch1Beer, on Sep 15 2017 - 22:30, said:

 

Your blinders are on so tight, like a child sticking his fingers in his ears... I never said it was wrong that arty can hit you in places other tanks can't, this ability and the exceptional range are literally the only two advantages of artillery. The issue is that the only way to nullify the threat of artillery is to CAMP and NEVER be spotted. This is exactly opposite of the touted "purpose" of artillery as a gameplay mechanic. THAT is what is broken. I guess if you enjoy that playstyle and would prefer to promote a completely passive game more power to you; I would argue that this is very detrimental to the enjoyment the vast majority of players look to receive from playing this game. 

Except, over the last 7 years - unless you've had your blinders on so tight you didn't notice - that is not what happens. You have got to be spotted AND not moving for seven seconds or so, OR spotted AND moving so predictably a gun with 0.7 accuracy, HUGE bloom while tracking and a complete re-do on aiming if the tracks move while tracking in order to get hit. Most of you guys don't know how to hide behind cover anyway, so if that's your excuse, that's on you.

 

 I've seen good players move in ways that completely confound arty, make them look elsewhere for targets. Hell, even I can do it. But it's easier to scream "broken mechanic" and strive to [edited].  The game up for others than it is to just learn how to deal with this very straightforward mechanic. Did I mention it's been in the game for like, 7 years? What is holding you guys back?



Kenshin2kx #127 Posted Sep 16 2017 - 02:04

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View PostThornir, on Sep 15 2017 - 14:03, said:

Except, over the last 7 years - unless you've had your blinders on so tight you didn't notice - that is not what happens. You have got to be spotted AND not moving for seven seconds or so, OR spotted AND moving so predictably a gun with 0.7 accuracy, HUGE bloom while tracking and a complete re-do on aiming if the tracks move while tracking in order to get hit. Most of you guys don't know how to hide behind cover anyway, so if that's your excuse, that's on you.

 

 I've seen good players move in ways that completely confound arty, make them look elsewhere for targets. Hell, even I can do it. But it's easier to scream "broken mechanic" and strive to [edited].  The game up for others than it is to just learn how to deal with this very straightforward mechanic. Did I mention it's been in the game for like, 7 years? What is holding you guys back?

 

Now this I have to take exception to ... your statement implies boldly that the proxy view that is given to artillery is 'not broken' ... while I agree it is very straight forward, it is broken in that it goes way beyond what arty actually had during the periods in question.  Yet, to be fair, I say the same thing about the red outline ... I say both must go.  I don't have a problem with arty, but I do have one with proxy god view and wouldnt flinch at the removal of the red outline to keep things as fair as possible.


Edited by Kenshin2kx, Sep 16 2017 - 02:05.


Thornir #128 Posted Sep 16 2017 - 02:29

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Sep 16 2017 - 02:04, said:

 

Now this I have to take exception to ... your statement implies boldly that the proxy view that is given to artillery is 'not broken' ... while I agree it is very straight forward, it is broken in that it goes way beyond what arty actually had during the periods in question.  Yet, to be fair, I say the same thing about the red outline ... I say both must go.  I don't have a problem with arty, but I do have one with proxy god view and wouldnt flinch at the removal of the red outline to keep things as fair as possible.

Well, what would you suggest, then? Maps are too small for barrage fire, and please don't make me trot out all the things that are not as they would be in the period in question. Gotta aim it somehow. And remember, arty needs to have some means of making income and XP consistent with the other classes. WG has been gnawing this bone with the haters on their back for seven years, and this works. Best to leave it be and let the game run its course, IMO

 

 



black_irish666 #129 Posted Sep 17 2017 - 22:00

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View PostArclyte, on Sep 13 2017 - 23:48, said:

The arty nerfs pretty much removed arty from the game, until I started playing low armor light tanks

 

arty kids try to justify their BS clicker playstyle by claiming to be countering heavies (like the should be), but the truth is they just want to click for massive damage, regardless of who it is

 

scum

 

​     This "kid" is likely older than you and most definitely a lot wiser. I play this "game" for enjoyment and pass the time. Some people here are just like me, with physical limitations that make playing regular tanks frustrating as hell. Excuse me for playing and enjoying arty, I chose it because I want to contribute to my teams. Reading this thread makes me want to troll the $hit outta' the haters and that really burns my buns.

 

That was NOT my intention when I started this game...



Kenshin2kx #130 Posted Yesterday, 06:44 PM

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View PostThornir, on Sep 15 2017 - 15:29, said:

Well, what would you suggest, then? Maps are too small for barrage fire, and please don't make me trot out all the things that are not as they would be in the period in question. Gotta aim it somehow. And remember, arty needs to have some means of making income and XP consistent with the other classes. WG has been gnawing this bone with the haters on their back for seven years, and this works. Best to leave it be and let the game run its course, IMO

 

 

 

I think my posts in this thread and in many related threads show that I am not being one sided and or blind to the arcade 'expediencies' of this game ... there are many ... 6th Sense?  Insta-Repair Tracks, Crew Resurrection, RNG, limited armor hitboxes, elements in physics ... and thats just off the 'top of my head' ... there are many more I'm sure.  Thing is, there are many 'exaggerations' of context in the game ... some significantly more than others, case in point, the red outline AND the mechanics of arty real time proxy spotting.  

 

So, your question ... "Gotta aim it somehow."   ... very true, and you can still 'aim' in a more consistent manner (which while 'streamlined' by a game model and player user interface) would still be significantly closer (and in far greater alignment to LOS targeting for the traditional tank)  ... Off map Batteries ... say a matrix of 4/8/16 arty that fire in an area denial pattern within the established grid matrix map that the game already has ... so with reaction times expediently adjusted ... the spotter tank actually observes and targets enemies as a roving foreward scout and their radio man translates/relays their spot on the map ... which is received as a sub block ping that is 'answerable' by the arty player in the form of artillery strike to that sub coordinate.  Now, the density pattern & number of artillery would be dependent on the player accrued experience, arty vehicle type, perks, modules (as well as those elements as transferred by the scout) ... 

 

MEANWHILE BACK AT THE RANCH ... in my suggestion, the Arty would now be a specialist SPG with high Arty Functionality (only Arty can actually switchboard the incoming requests for strike and instigate one) ... as well as having TD CAPACITY - to the practical limit of what that arty vehicle could do IRL ... So now arty would gain back some defensive teeth AND have a discretional role in the game as a slow and somewhat cumbersome arty with a really slow but very big bang.   IMHO, not a bad deal ... and to top it off, Arties in particular could get insane spotting and assist damage due to the nature of its dual role of artillery command liaison for base artillery and or a direct role as discretional TD.

 

Somewhat larger maps and larger teams to begin with (like what is happening with grand battles but not just tier 10) ... as for 'pure' arty, have it like Strongholds ... and off map resource to 'call in' based upon forward spotting.  In particular, give the lights their niche by making them back into stealthy quick scouts with eyes and armament appropriate to their class and not some 'pocket medium' ... 

 

So to be candid, take away the 'direct aiming' for the arty aspect, but in trade give the TD role with LOS, but in return, also take away the red outline for LOS tanks ... and that's just the start ... there obviously more iniquities/discrepancies, but IMHO, this is high on the list.


Edited by Kenshin2kx, Yesterday, 08:25 PM.


Hurk #131 Posted Yesterday, 11:27 PM

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View Postthejoker91, on Sep 15 2017 - 14:23, said:

Except, you know, for all the situations where you fire, retreat behind a hill, where NO TANK CAN HIT YOU. And Bum, you get artied.

There are a million ways to break direct LoS with enemy tanks. But since arty doesnt require LoS, leaving hard cover means you get artied.-

its almost like... arty was designed... to hit tanks camping in positions of advantage... 



shoe123 #132 Posted Today, 02:22 AM

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i only have 1 problem with arty. Sometimes they shoot me. If they didn't do that I wouldn't have a problem with them at all.




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