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Artillery needs to be removed from the game


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Clickez4Fun #101 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 05:49

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View PostShortcult, on Sep 13 2017 - 19:12, said:

 

Do please find where I was bullying others.  At the very least the reread could be insightful.

 

I feel like I am the only one standing in the middle ground.  The radicals at either end I find to be incorrect.  I do realize that my responses can make me look like I am on the haters side.  In my mind it is because the haters do not respond with such enthusiastic vitriol to my posts.  The apologists however seem to see me as worse than Cromwell, and regularly let me know.  And yeah, I am not a big enough boy to not respond in kind to others.  Even if their demeaning post was not initially aimed at me, one of the apologists said 'defending the little guy', see it works both ways.  Almost like it was competitive huh?  Also, are you implying that if I just logged in once a day my point would bear more merit?  Seriously?

 

Yep, CW and GL are both more competitive.  Are you implying that they completely removed arty in both of those modes in order for it to be more competitive?  What are the realistic chances of getting an answer to that?  Still haven't seen a response to a split mode, why are the apologists so scared of that?  With my suggestions it would be the larger population.  Oh, and a population that didn't deride arty constantly.  Are you so used to the derision that you feel it is what defines you?  You can't play WoT unless someone is insulting you?  I hope that is not the case.

 

Is this the part where you tell me to go play Blitz?

 

Let's use your post from this thread as an example, shall we...I have no need to go searching for your whimsical choices of words you claim are not bullying.

 

I guess the bolded portion below, is a term of endearment in your household... :unsure:

 

View PostShortcult, on Sep 13 2017 - 12:26, said:

 

Point two is actually brilliant.  It does not result in the competitive mode I have long desired, but it hoists the haters and apologists on their own petards.  Worst case, implementing this would give WG a valuable amount of data.  Best case a lot of players return to the game, some of them even paying (me?).  There would probably be very few players that did not check the box to remove at least one class.  Again, valuable data.

 

There will of course be the 'I want a box for HE', 'I want a box for the GF', 'I want a box for the Luchs' simpletons that are unable to see past their own interest.  That being the case, as a preemptive strike, I wanna box for close air support!  (Yeah, introduce it then let me deselect it).

 

You don't play WoT, yet you constantly want to have changes made. Claiming an arty free mode will bring back players is your OPINION, without any basis in fact to back it up.

 

You choose to use insults in almost every post on the arty subject. Trying to spin my words to fit into your agenda is another attempt to have others follow your will.

 

Who's stopping you from developing/producing your very own game with the mechanics you require? Rather, you want to make changes to a game that isn't on your playlist. Making the claim you may return, and pay into the WG coffers, only if they create an arty free, competitive game mode. WG added ranked battles for those seeking a more competitive game mode. I admit, it still needs work, but at least the effort is there. You may want to give the ranked battles a chance.  If not ranked battles, the obvious choice is WoT Blitz for your arty free gameplay. 



eisen1973 #102 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 05:54

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View PostPFCWilliams, on Sep 10 2017 - 23:21, said:

Tier 8 Su-14-2 hit my Grille 15 for 1,167 in a single shot and hit an AMX 30 b for 1000 plus in the same match.

 

Tier 8 doing 1000+ damage to tier 10's.....

 

 

Please tell me more how arty has been..."nerfed".

 

 

 

You have been playing since 2010 and arty was not something they introduced later, so are you serious man? It's been 6 years now, get used to it bro. 

Shortcult #103 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 06:19

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View PostClickez4Fun, on Sep 13 2017 - 20:49, said:

 

Let's use your post from this thread as an example, shall we...I have no need to go searching for your whimsical choices of words you claim are not bullying.

 

I guess the bolded portion below, is a term of endearment in your household... :unsure:

 

 

You don't play WoT, yet you constantly want to have changes made. Claiming an arty free mode will bring back players is your OPINION, without any basis in fact to back it up.

 

You choose to use insults in almost every post on the arty subject. Trying to spin my words to fit into your agenda is another attempt to have others follow your will.

 

Who's stopping you from developing/producing your very own game with the mechanics you require? Rather, you want to make changes to a game that isn't on your playlist. Making the claim you may return, and pay into the WG coffers, only if they create an arty free, competitive game mode. WG added ranked battles for those seeking a more competitive game mode. I admit, it still needs work, but at least the effort is there. You may want to give the ranked battles a chance.  If not ranked battles, the obvious choice is WoT Blitz for your arty free gameplay. 

 

Simpletons is in fact a harsh insult.  I should stand in the corner.  I believe I said I answered like with like, you'll notice there are no insults in this post.  Go ahead, read it again.

 

Your still going on about the battle count?  That makes a player more or less understanding of the events in game?  I will not log in daily in order for you to more readily accept what I post, because you won't, you'll just slide to the next excuse to deride me as the arty supporters always do.

 

Is it interesting how little of my post you actually answered rather than just attacking me?  Not really for me to decide, but I put it forth for others to think about.  Then they can judge the content of your posts.

 

Spin your words to get others to follow my will?  Admittedly, you found me out.  I secretly want to take over the world and force fairness on all whether they want it or not.  I seek a world where everyone is in the middle and agrees on everything.  Now my plan is spoiled and I will have to come up with another way to try to make people see things without preconceptions and judge them on their merits.

 

Incidentally, the game has been changing since...well since alpha.  Notice those things called patches?  They are changes to the game, just thought someone should tell you.  How many classes have had major overhauls since alpha?

 

Yes, once again, you'll see this post as anti arty when in fact it is anti radical arty supporter.  Perhaps you'll even stretch to say this entire post is an insult.  I'll let others judge.  But again I'll ask, why are you afraid of a mode that 90% of the players play with arty and don't deride them while 10% play on their own without indirect fire?  Keeping in mind I have arty in the garage and would be putting myself in the larger indirect fire group, what is my selfish reason for supporting this mode?

 

 I did play ranked and you are correct, it still needs some work.  I do hope it works out and is a mode that WG keeps.  For that matter I would like to see Grand Battles work out as a keeper mode also.

 

Just couldn't keep from recommending Blitz could you?


Edited by Shortcult, Sep 14 2017 - 06:21.


Thornir #104 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 11:11

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View PostSturmgeschut, on Sep 14 2017 - 03:47, said:

 

Considering 90% of the time I am the good player on the team, what holds me back is [edited]like the British heavy tank line.

Bad mobility, bad gun handling, bad armor, bad alpha, and subhumans on the enemy team firing HE at me because I happen to have the only decent stats in a sea of ketchup is what is holding me back.

 

Arty isn't nearly as annoying when I play tanks that actually allow me to play the tank. You try being useful in a mid-tier British heavy with those pigs focusing you while you're moving at 20kph in Prokhorovka.

 

no, you aren't. Top half most games, top 1/3 frequently, maybe, but no. I have the same WR as you and I don't draw special attention from arty unless I am somewhere they don't want me. 90% is a huge exaggeration. 

 

the problems you cite with mid-tier heavy tanks aren't unique to arty. Everyone is going to get in line to kick your [edited]in those tanks on those maps. Not all tanks play well on all maps, with or without arty, and all lines have hard stretches. Sorry it isn't easier for you. 



Thornir #105 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 11:24

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View PostShortcult, on Sep 14 2017 - 03:54, said:

 

Your response presumes everyone will turn off arty.  In your profile you quote the '90% of players have arty'.  Somehow I can't align these two statements.

 

And please do continue to label me as one of the "People that want to limit arty", I do feel best all alone in the middle ground.

 

my response is in general, to anyone's effort to in any way restrict arty play. You presume I refer to your master plan, or that I am referring to you in particular. I am not. You are looking for an argument with yourself specifically I am not trying to make.

 

and why shouldn't people mention blitz? It's WOT without arty. It might be an option for some people. 

 

That said, let's discuss the gorilla in the room. i've said it before and I will say it again, short: the fact that you do not actually play the game anymore makes your opinions on what ought to be done to the game for those of us that do pretty irrelevant. You keep dismissing this when it comes up, like it doesn't matter. It does.  bigly. If you aren't in game, slugging it out, living with the game as it is, you don't deserve a voice on how it should be. Dismiss this again if you like, but it isn't going away. Opinions from the sidelines lack credibility. 



vvav #106 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 13:53

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I think they should give artillery some kind of bonus against heavy tanks. It feels like arty doesn't even shoot heavy tanks anymore unless they have no other options, because shots on lightly armored tanks reward the arty player with more credits/exp. Considering that arty accuracy used to be worse, it used to be like 500 average damage per shot on heavy tanks and 1000 average damage per shot against lighter targets. Now with better accuracy but worse damage it's like 100 average damage per shot on heavy tanks and still 1000 average damage per shot against lighter targets. If you can do 1000 damage by shooting at lights and TDs, why would you ever shoot the heavy tanks for 100 damage? The only reason would be if you wanted to win more than you wanted to get damage, but we all know that WoT players are more motivated to get damage than they are to help their team win, and because of that the arty sits there spamming shots at scouts instead of actually shooting the heavies they are supposed to counter. After the arty rework I just hear arty players cry that they can't damage heavy tanks and I hear light tankers/paper TD players cry that arty hits them more accurately. The only class that benefitted from the rework was heavy tanks that are now immune to arty. The heavy tank bias is getting out of hand if you ask me.

Edited by vvav, Sep 14 2017 - 13:55.


Thornir #107 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 14:55

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View Postvvav, on Sep 14 2017 - 13:53, said:

I think they should give artillery some kind of bonus against heavy tanks. It feels like arty doesn't even shoot heavy tanks anymore unless they have no other options, because shots on lightly armored tanks reward the arty player with more credits/exp. Considering that arty accuracy used to be worse, it used to be like 500 average damage per shot on heavy tanks and 1000 average damage per shot against lighter targets. Now with better accuracy but worse damage it's like 100 average damage per shot on heavy tanks and still 1000 average damage per shot against lighter targets. If you can do 1000 damage by shooting at lights and TDs, why would you ever shoot the heavy tanks for 100 damage? The only reason would be if you wanted to win more than you wanted to get damage, but we all know that WoT players are more motivated to get damage than they are to help their team win, and because of that the arty sits there spamming shots at scouts instead of actually shooting the heavies they are supposed to counter. After the arty rework I just hear arty players cry that they can't damage heavy tanks and I hear light tankers/paper TD players cry that arty hits them more accurately. The only class that benefitted from the rework was heavy tanks that are now immune to arty. The heavy tank bias is getting out of hand if you ask me.

 

we had AP, once. Haters wanted it gone, so we got this instead. They traded poorly, in my opinion. Karma ran over their dogma, it seems.   

 

 

I cant speak for all arty players, but I prioritize based on targeting requests and threats. If I am loaded and there's nothing else to shoot except some knucklehead sitting in the open, I'll take that shot, especially if I'm in a fast reload arty. But anymore, arty's success is tied to team success, so it's best for everyone to shoot who needs shootin', as often as it takes. 



BillT #108 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 15:25

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View PostShortcult, on Sep 14 2017 - 00:19, said:

 

 

Just couldn't keep from recommending Blitz could you?

 

You should try it.  It's WOT without artillery.



Komitadjie #109 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 15:40

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View PostThornir, on Sep 14 2017 - 14:55, said:

 

we had AP, once. Haters wanted it gone, so we got this instead. They traded poorly, in my opinion. Karma ran over their dogma, it seems.   

 

 

I cant speak for all arty players, but I prioritize based on targeting requests and threats. If I am loaded and there's nothing else to shoot except some knucklehead sitting in the open, I'll take that shot, especially if I'm in a fast reload arty. But anymore, arty's success is tied to team success, so it's best for everyone to shoot who needs shootin', as often as it takes. 

 

I actually tend to prioritize as much as I can threats to the team, but in the reality of gameplay, there's often only a couple targets lit to pick from. Of those, I'll usually pick which ever is closer to my aim point, to try to hit it before it drops spotting again.  

 

The DPM on my gun is terribly low, so I tend to keep it firing as much as I can to maximize what I have. If that means a less ideal target, so be it. Every shot that connects chips a bit more HP off of the red team.  A lot is map dependent, too. Long, open maps? I go for TDs heavily. Close funnel maps, I prioritize stunning and splashing the enemy heavies at the corner to give my team the edge, because that's where the battle is usually won or lost on a funnel.  I don't get as much damage, but a better chance of a win.  From a silver and XP standpoint, the win bonus is going to be a lot more than the income I'd get from more damage but a loss!

 

If there's nothing at all lit, I shift aim into their rear and try to tracer-spot for CB fire. It's really low probability of a hit, though, so that's kind of an "only when there's nothing better" option.  I really like CB kills, but they're not terribly critical to winning the game, usually, compared to the stun and damage I can do to their main push.


Edited by Komitadjie, Sep 14 2017 - 15:43.


Kenshin2kx #110 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 17:44

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View PostThornir, on Sep 14 2017 - 00:24, said:

 

my response is in general, to anyone's effort to in any way restrict arty play. You presume I refer to your master plan, or that I am referring to you in particular. I am not. You are looking for an argument with yourself specifically I am not trying to make.

 

and why shouldn't people mention blitz? It's WOT without arty. It might be an option for some people. 

 

<Kenshin2kx>  True, it is an option, but there are differences in the game, so in all fairness, its an option for some, but arguably not all.

 

That said, let's discuss the gorilla in the room. i've said it before and I will say it again, short: the fact that you do not actually play the game anymore makes your opinions on what ought to be done to the game for those of us that do pretty irrelevant. You keep dismissing this when it comes up, like it doesn't matter. It does.  bigly. If you aren't in game, slugging it out, living with the game as it is, you don't deserve a voice on how it should be. Dismiss this again if you like, but it isn't going away. Opinions from the sidelines lack credibility. 

 

<Kenshin2kx>  The fact that someone does not actively play at present does not invalidate their opinions or views (of this game) or anything for that matter.  Subjective opinion and view IS valid from a personal context regardless of circumstance ... this is fact.  Disregarding this, states that direct participation is REQUIRED for 'acceptable input' ... only ... if you are not careful, someone could accuse you of a form of exclusivity similar in intent to the removal of arty ... let all participate in having their say in a civil manner.  EVERYONE has a right to their own view and an equal right to voice it in the context of a forum like this.

 


Edited by Kenshin2kx, Sep 14 2017 - 17:45.


Thornir #111 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 19:42

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Sep 14 2017 - 17:44, said:

 

 

well, I disagree. I believe you need to have skin in the game if you intend to try to change it. I am fundamentally opposed to people trying to make change for others without any consequences for themselves. 

PanzerWahoo #112 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 19:58

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View PostPFCWilliams, on Sep 11 2017 - 05:21, said:

Tier 8 Su-14-2 hit my Grille 15 for 1,167 in a single shot and hit an AMX 30 b for 1000 plus in the same match.

 

Tier 8 doing 1000+ damage to tier 10's.....

 

 

Please tell me more how arty has been..."nerfed".

 

 

 

The SU-14-2 is an extremely dangerous vehicle. Compared to non-premium T8 HTs, MTs, and TDs, it has;

  • worse penetration by all of them, less  then 1/4th the penetration of almost all of them
  • worst base camo rating
  • by very far, the worst reload time
  • the worst DPM
  • the worst (again, by far) shell velocity
  • the worst aim time
  • the worst dispersion
  • among the 34 vehicles compared, sixth worst forward speed
  • the worst reverse speed
  • 2nd worst traverse speed
  • 5th worst power/weight ratio
  • worst hard terrain resistance
  • worst gun traverse speed
  • 4th worst armor protection
  • by far the worst view range
  • And just to top it off, the most expensive vehicle to buy in the compared set

Now, it's obvious how overpowered it is on paper, but let's see how the statistics work out in actual game play. According to vbaddict.net, the SU-14-2 at Tier 8:

  • isn't in the top 10 for winrate
  • isn't in the top 10 for damage dealt 
  • isn't in the top 10 for accuracy
  • isn't in the top 10 in net income
  • isn't in the top 10 for kills per battle

 

This SPG is scary good. I don't know how you people who play Tier 10 vehicles against it handle it. I think you're right. The SU-14-2 needs to be removed from the game for being so massively overpowered. Thank you for bringing this to our attention!



Kenshin2kx #113 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 21:42

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View PostThornir, on Sep 14 2017 - 08:42, said:

 

well, I disagree. I believe you need to have skin in the game if you intend to try to change it. I am fundamentally opposed to people trying to make change for others without any consequences for themselves. 

 

To this I agree.  There is a saying that goes something like ... Successful compromise is defined as a state in which all parties with vested interests are equally dissatisfied but tolerant of the global outcome ....  



Shortcult #114 Posted Sep 15 2017 - 07:24

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View PostThornir, on Sep 14 2017 - 02:24, said:

 

my response is in general, to anyone's effort to in any way restrict arty play. You presume I refer to your master plan, or that I am referring to you in particular. I am not. You are looking for an argument with yourself specifically I am not trying to make.

 

and why shouldn't people mention blitz? It's WOT without arty. It might be an option for some people. 

 

That said, let's discuss the gorilla in the room. i've said it before and I will say it again, short: the fact that you do not actually play the game anymore makes your opinions on what ought to be done to the game for those of us that do pretty irrelevant. You keep dismissing this when it comes up, like it doesn't matter. It does.  bigly. If you aren't in game, slugging it out, living with the game as it is, you don't deserve a voice on how it should be. Dismiss this again if you like, but it isn't going away. Opinions from the sidelines lack credibility. 

 

Interesting aside.  I certainly do not feel like I am looking for an argument against myself.  Ironically (?) I received a PM recently stating that I was disengenuous in my want to split to two modes and only meant for it to be an end to arty through a back handed effort.  Honestly, I had not considered that as an assumption to my suggestion.  Guess my sig precludes my statements.  Such is life.  If I were to say that I was a better IS-3 player than XXXX player, ten people would look me up and refute it with links.  In that same vein, it is interesting that 'its the internet' applies to my suggestion in this case rather than the search for facts to repute me.

 

Making an assumption based on how many games one has played, or when one played their last game is in fact disingenuous.  That factually has no basis on their opinion.  You are more intelligent than that, don't fall for that silliness.  No, I am not trying to placate you, I am still the jerk you have become accustomed to.  When someone played has no bearing on their opinion.  If I said your opinion had no merit because you had not conducted flight operations in the last three months, would that bear any merit?  I feel like you continue to consider me the enemy when I am (in my own opinion for sure) trying to propose a mechanic that will sate the most players.

 

Yeah, admittedly, I can be 'rough' to contend with.  I do tell myself that I only return in kind what I have seen posted.  But, to thy own self be true, I may be a bit of an a$$.  Does that make my opinion less worthwhile?  If your link is true, then my suggestion removes only 10% of the possible targets for arty.  Without arguing if it will or won't, you have to admit there is a possibility that players return to the game if my suggestion is made real.  Whether that offsets the lost 10% of targets to arty players is certainly open for debate.  Opinions will run rampant, only facts will reveal the truth.

 

Lastly, how many posters do we see on what we would call 'alternate' accounts?  My brother and my father both have gifted me accounts that they would not play anymore.  You really think I am continuing to follow a forum on a game I do not play?  I do not pay or play on the account that I post under.  That is irrelevant to my opinions of the game as it stands.  Nope, I will not publicly admit that I may have in game knowledge while the account I am posting under shows a lapse in game play.  Again, I don't consider you that dense, don't prove me wrong.

 

Lastly ok second lastly, I do not have a 'master plan', just a hope to make the game better for all.  Although it would seem, this is seen as disingenuous, go figure.  Welcome to the internet.



Thornir #115 Posted Sep 15 2017 - 13:14

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I have no idea how many accounts you may have. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. You don't play THIS one, and this one is the one you speak from. 

 

Isnt multiple accounts by the same player on the same server a EULA violation? It's common AF, obviously, but you flaunt it?

 

And quibble with with me on your "master plan". You restate it in virtually every arty thread, passing yourself off as the fair broker of an egalitarian idea.. you ARE ant-arty, and now I am thinking you are so willing to sacrifice yourself along with the other arty players because you DO have multiple accounts and at least one without arty. 

 

My expertise in flying is dated. I would not presume to try to explain to another pilot what they should do or not based on old information. You could take a lesson there. 

 

you are blowing smoke and evading the issue. Again. 



thejoker91 #116 Posted Sep 15 2017 - 14:59

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View PostPanzerWahoo, on Sep 14 2017 - 15:58, said:

 

The SU-14-2 is an extremely dangerous vehicle. Compared to non-premium T8 HTs, MTs, and TDs, it has;

  • worse penetration by all of them, less  then 1/4th the penetration of almost all of them
  • worst base camo rating
  • by very far, the worst reload time
  • the worst DPM
  • the worst (again, by far) shell velocity
  • the worst aim time
  • the worst dispersion
  • among the 34 vehicles compared, sixth worst forward speed
  • the worst reverse speed
  • 2nd worst traverse speed
  • 5th worst power/weight ratio
  • worst hard terrain resistance
  • worst gun traverse speed
  • 4th worst armor protection
  • by far the worst view range
  • And just to top it off, the most expensive vehicle to buy in the compared set

Now, it's obvious how overpowered it is on paper, but let's see how the statistics work out in actual game play. According to vbaddict.net, the SU-14-2 at Tier 8:

  • isn't in the top 10 for winrate
  • isn't in the top 10 for damage dealt 
  • isn't in the top 10 for accuracy
  • isn't in the top 10 in net income
  • isn't in the top 10 for kills per battle

 

This SPG is scary good. I don't know how you people who play Tier 10 vehicles against it handle it. I think you're right. The SU-14-2 needs to be removed from the game for being so massively overpowered. Thank you for bringing this to our attention!

 

Ah, the good old "Arty is not OP look at the data hurrr durrrr".

Arty is broken. Different thing. 

First people need to understand what a broken mechanic is, then they can begin to understand why.

If you create something to discourage camping, and instead it causes camping, then its broken. 



Thornir #117 Posted Sep 15 2017 - 15:46

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View Postthejoker91, on Sep 15 2017 - 14:59, said:

 

Ah, the good old "Arty is not OP look at the data hurrr durrrr".

Arty is broken. Different thing. 

First people need to understand what a broken mechanic is, then they can begin to understand why.

If you create something to discourage camping, and instead it causes camping, then its broken. 

Yeah, wouldn't want to be confused by facts.  

 

It's a broken mechanic.. so broken that it's been left in game, pretty much as is, for seven years. Maybe it's only "broken" to those that can't manage to avoid it. Hurrr durrr.



1Bourbon1Scotch1Beer #118 Posted Sep 15 2017 - 18:58

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View PostThornir, on Sep 15 2017 - 14:46, said:

Yeah, wouldn't want to be confused by facts.  

 

It's a broken mechanic.. so broken that it's been left in game, pretty much as is, for seven years. Maybe it's only "broken" to those that can't manage to avoid it. Hurrr durrr.

 

Hurr Durr indeed, you didn't even take the time to read/understand his post, if you're even capable of doing so. Are you such an apologist that you're unable to admit it's even a bit wrong that the actual gameplay effect of artillery is exactly opposite to the stated premise behind artillery's value to the game?  This is not a question of CAN artillery be avoided, it's HOW it can be avoided. When that answer is camping and playing ineffective and UNFUN redline positions, especially in tanks for which that playstyle completely ruin their effectiveness, there is clearly a problem.  



P_A_N_Z_E_R #119 Posted Sep 15 2017 - 19:18

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View PostPFCWilliams, on Sep 11 2017 - 05:21, said:

Tier 8 Su-14-2 hit my Grille 15 for 1,167 in a single shot and hit an AMX 30 b for 1000 plus in the same match.

 

Tier 8 doing 1000+ damage to tier 10's.....

 

 

Please tell me more how arty has been..."nerfed".

 

 

 

These tanks are highly mobile so.................... not sure whose fault is that.

cnumartyr #120 Posted Sep 15 2017 - 19:21

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View PostP_A_N_Z_E_R, on Sep 15 2017 - 13:18, said:

 

These tanks are highly mobile so.................... not sure whose fault is that.

 

The person who played a paper tank, saw arty on the other team, got lit, and didn't get arty safe.




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