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Suggested Changes to the Grille 15 please!


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flowerpower210 #21 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 05:47

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​NO


Edited by flowerpower210, Sep 13 2017 - 06:43.


teamoldmill #22 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 12:53

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View Postianizor1000, on Sep 13 2017 - 04:39, said:

Win rate is not the only number that matters. Unicums generally tend to know a bit about the game and their opinions are pretty valid.

 

They know which tanks are good and bad, and post the opposite on the forum, yes.

 

When you see unicorns padding in the Grille instead of the 140 or whatever medium or heavy is all the rage, let me know. When you see them seal clubbing in the JP IV and 3601 and Emil, let me know. The tank is bad, period. And yes, over hundreds of thousands of battles, win rate is the the ONLY thing that matters, if your goal in this game is to win games. Unicorns don't play bad tanks in general for a reason. Unicorns in general play the best tanks in tier to stay purple and smash their enemies. They do not play garbage tanks to prove a point. The few who occasionally do play garbage tanks are supported by other unicorns in the super tanks which massively cancels out some of the trash.

 

Use your head. These old "a German tank has a 46% win rate, but its awesome because a purple 140 driver says so" arguments are silly and old.


Edited by teamoldmill, Sep 13 2017 - 12:54.


SovietMemeBear #23 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 16:44

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View Postteamoldmill, on Sep 13 2017 - 11:53, said:

 

They know which tanks are good and bad, and post the opposite on the forum, yes.

 

When you see unicorns padding in the Grille instead of the 140 or whatever medium or heavy is all the rage, let me know. When you see them seal clubbing in the JP IV and 3601 and Emil, let me know. The tank is bad, period. And yes, over hundreds of thousands of battles, win rate is the the ONLY thing that matters, if your goal in this game is to win games. Unicorns don't play bad tanks in general for a reason. Unicorns in general play the best tanks in tier to stay purple and smash their enemies. They do not play garbage tanks to prove a point. The few who occasionally do play garbage tanks are supported by other unicorns in the super tanks which massively cancels out some of the trash.

 

Use your head. These old "a German tank has a 46% win rate, but its awesome because a purple 140 driver says so" arguments are silly and old.

 

The tank isn't bad. Youre just to bad to understand how to play it properly. 

flowerpower210 #24 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 17:25

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How can the tank be bad? It has a high alpha gun with good accuracy and penetration AND it is fast enough for you to relocate and make opportunities for yourself. To top it off, it has a semi-traversable turret.

 

This thing looks awesome.



agtdetructor #25 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 17:57

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It is a perfectly balanced TD, the whole line is sniper glass cannons so you should know how to handle this type of tank when you reach grille 15

Edited by agtdetructor, Sep 13 2017 - 18:00.


Markd73 #26 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 18:02

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View Postkishan99, on Sep 12 2017 - 04:22, said:

I don't understand WG's balancing strategy.  A tank with 0 armor and half a turret (rotation), and very prone to module damage should have a really good, high power gun...  Something like the deathstar.  The deathstar at least has armor and nobody spams HE at you.  Even the Jg E100 doesn't have a fully rotational turret, but it has good armor, a good gun, great penetration. 

 

The second you get shot in the 15, your gun or engine is gone.  Not enough health, not good enough gun with a 16 second reload and only 750 average, useless armor (but I understand that the previous tiers had 0 armor too), losses modules quickly.

 

Changes I suggest...

 

Option 1: Gun does 950-1475 damage, 19 second reload with 100% crew, medium to low penetration.  Keep the armor, since its basic for previous tiers.  Camo is fine.  Increase reverse speed and turn speed by 10%.   I understand its an accurate gun, but the low penetration should even it out.  

 

Option 2: Make the Grille 15 an autoloader.  550 Average damage with 4 rounds in the magazine.  26 second reload at 100% crew.  Medium to low penetration.  Each shot fired, expands the aiming circle, but the fast aiming should make it nice. Reload between shells is 1 second.  Armor and everything is the same.     

 

Honestly, I think the grille is pretty underpowered.  I have gotten plenty of hate in chat saying, "Why do we get the grille, and they get a jg".  I hope you guys agree with me!

 

What? The Jg E100 has good armor? Where?

 

Just shoot the cheese lower plate



Markd73 #27 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 18:08

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View Postteamoldmill, on Sep 12 2017 - 13:37, said:

 

It is #9 in win rate of 10 TDs. 46.84%, almost 6% behind number 1, the E3. Tanks that get down to the 46% zone are bad. STRV wins 5% more often.

 

Statistics, how do they work? Could care less about super duper unicorn thoughts, I care about numbers.

 

498 tanks in the entire game. Grille is 453rd for win rate. How is this good? Remember, 99.99% of the players will not have a bunch of 8,000 WN8 platoon mates setting them up to actually do something. And you don't play it, but play the usual mix of great mediums/heavies. Why not pad in the Grille? What is next, going to say the JP IV and 3601 are the best tanks in the game? Tiger II is the best T8 heavy?

 

 

You have some points but you are failing to account for:


A) There are way  more bad players than good in this game

B) More bad players own and play the Grille than good players (just based on population size alone)

C) The Grille appears to have a very high skill floor (I could be wrong but am open to discussion from good players on this one)

D) What is the differential between the winrate of a good player with a Grille vs a bad player with a Grille?

 

I think the numbers may be skewed and you are not doing a nuanced enough analysis. I could be wrong but you may want to take another look at your analysis.

 

P.S. Reminds me of the people who say the Object 260 is really good. Really? Maybe it is or maybe it is just how difficult it is to get and that only the best players could get in in the early days and skewed the winrate....because...you know....they are good players.

 



Canadian_Mano #28 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 18:18

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Needs full turret, otherwise fine tank

ThePigSheFlies #29 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 18:19

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View Postkishan99, on Sep 11 2017 - 23:22, said:

  I hope you guys agree with me!

 

I don't.  I'd just like the reverse speed increased/un-nerfed, and for the RNG on damage rolls to be reduced.  

 

the closest I came to TD15.4 (8k dmg and 5 kills) I missed by 46 hps.  every single shot except 1 in that game was a low roll.  (well except perhaps kill shots, we never know how high a kill shot would have rolled :rolleyes: )

 

 

View PostMarkd73, on Sep 13 2017 - 12:02, said:

 

What? The Jg E100 has good armor? Where?

 

Just shoot the cheese lower plate

 

​#2 through the casement works most of the time

 

View PostMarkd73, on Sep 13 2017 - 12:08, said:

P.S. Reminds me of the people who say the Object 260 is really good. Really? Maybe it is or maybe it is just how difficult it is to get and that only the best players could get in in the early days and skewed the winrate....because...you know....they are good players.

 

 

it's a heavium, which allows good players to get into action for early damage, as well as flex for mid game opportunities.  it's also fairly rare, so average and sub-average players don't know where to shoot it.

 

I don't have mine - yet.  been one mission away for longer than I care to admit - and I refuse to spam battles in a single class to chase it.



ThePigSheFlies #30 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 18:30

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View Postteamoldmill, on Sep 13 2017 - 06:53, said:

 

They know which tanks are good and bad, and post the opposite on the forum, yes.

 

When you see unicorns padding in the Grille instead of the 140 or whatever medium or heavy is all the rage, let me know. When you see them seal clubbing in the JP IV and 3601 and Emil, let me know. The tank is bad, period. And yes, over hundreds of thousands of battles, win rate is the the ONLY thing that matters, if your goal in this game is to win games. Unicorns don't play bad tanks in general for a reason. Unicorns in general play the best tanks in tier to stay purple and smash their enemies. They do not play garbage tanks to prove a point. The few who occasionally do play garbage tanks are supported by other unicorns in the super tanks which massively cancels out some of the trash.

 

Use your head. These old "a German tank has a 46% win rate, but its awesome because a purple 140 driver says so" arguments are silly and old.

 

not sure which false unicums you are looking at on streams or youtube.  the ones I watch, and try to learn from are purple in pretty much any tank they spend any significant amount of time in.

 

 

 

 



wXwXw #31 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 18:46

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Grille has the worst gun handling in the game. It's even worst than E4 and as bad as FV, but at least FV can 1 shot most tier 10s and Grille cannot. 

ThePigSheFlies #32 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 23:10

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View PostwXwXw, on Sep 13 2017 - 12:46, said:

Grille has the worst gun handling in the game. It's even worst than E4 and as bad as FV, but at least FV can 1 shot most tier 10s and Grille cannot. 

 

the number of times a 183 can one shot a full health TD, or Heavy is about as often as the fact that my then tier 7 walker bulldog once ammo racked, one shot killed a T62a that was trying to get on the hill on mines...

Mikosah #33 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 23:19

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The Grille is just specialized for an awkward niche. If the meta were more sniper-friendly this situation would be totally different. That said, if they wanted to do something subtle that makes the Grille more usable, all it would take is a dispersion buff. Having 0.40 for turret rotation is overkill. 

gideonan #34 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 07:17

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There is a lot of arguments that the Grille is great in the right hands. Those arguments don't really hold much water. The big question is how does the Grille 15 compare to other tier 10s. In my opinion it doesn't. I'm biased because I have one and openly hate it. I grinded through some painful tanks thinking the Grille 15 would be the big pay off. To be honest the Sturer Emil was with the Rhm getting second. There was no benefit to grinding to the Grille 15.

"It is a great tank. You just can't play it."
If that is true the unicorns would be using them often. The Unicorns avoiding it means there are flaws that make it not worth playing.

"The gun is great"
It is 35th of the tier 10s in DPM. For a TD that isn't that impressive.

Edited by gideonan, Sep 14 2017 - 07:17.


teamoldmill #35 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 12:07

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View PostThePigSheFlies, on Sep 13 2017 - 17:30, said:

 

not sure which false unicums you are looking at on streams or youtube.  the ones I watch, and try to learn from are purple in pretty much any tank they spend any significant amount of time in.

 

 

 

 

 

All of them. Of all the unicorn platoons I have run into, I almost never, I mean like once in a blue moon see a member in a crappy tank like a Grille, a Tiger II, a 3601, Emil, etc. Yes they can even play those tanks 20 times better than the average person, but they are not capable of carrying like other tanks are. Not sure why this forum is so resistant to plain old statistics and math. Over millions of battles, if a tank is losing 5% more than another, you really don't think there are issues with the tank? Unicorns in general play good to OP tanks that help them continue to be purple as an eggplant... and good for them, they should and that is smart. But seriously, don't pretend 453 out of 498 (whatever that number was) means it is a good tank. That is truly silly.

 

Numbers have no bias. When you are near dead last of almost 500 tanks in win rate, it means terrible, period. Game is about winning after all, is it not?

 

 


Edited by teamoldmill, Sep 14 2017 - 12:24.


ThePigSheFlies #36 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 14:05

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View Postteamoldmill, on Sep 14 2017 - 06:07, said:

 

All of them. Of all the unicorn platoons I have run into, I almost never, I mean like once in a blue moon see a member in a crappy tank like a Grille, a Tiger II, a 3601, Emil, etc. Yes they can even play those tanks 20 times better than the average person, but they are not capable of carrying like other tanks are. Not sure why this forum is so resistant to plain old statistics and math. Over millions of battles, if a tank is losing 5% more than another, you really don't think there are issues with the tank? Unicorns in general play good to OP tanks that help them continue to be purple as an eggplant... and good for them, they should and that is smart. But seriously, don't pretend 453 out of 498 (whatever that number was) means it is a good tank. That is truly silly.

 

Numbers have no bias. When you are near dead last of almost 500 tanks in win rate, it means terrible, period. Game is about winning after all, is it not?

 

 

 

on one hand, you're supposedly alluding to statistics, and then on the other hand you're referring to the painfully small sample size of unicums you see in game. over 14,000 battles spread over 6 years...

 

if you want to simply allude to statistics, then go start looking at the number of games played, and their "unicum-ness" in a variety of tanks. you can sift/sort tanks a player has experienced at wotlabs as well as at clantools.us - start looking at the actual people that are unequivocally the top 0.01% of the game and looking at what they play and how well they play it.  folks in the top clans, current and former gold-leaguers, or even prior silver leaguers.  

 

you will probably find in generalities, but not in totality, that  try-hards will indeed have a higher percentage of games in tanks that can flex, so yes, not only mediums, but also heaviums, and in some cases LTs.  what you will also often find is that their inflated ratings in those flexing tanks are high because the "millions of players that have battles in those same tanks" don't perform well in them.  the average player does poorly at winning in flexible tanks with minimal armor.  that's why the Maus is still laughably over buffed because any potato like me can take it on their first battle, middle road on lakeville and farm over 8k blocked with their feet on the keyboard giggling like a child on a sugar buzz while clicking 4-5x on the enemy for 2k dmg...

 

you speak of "carry tanks" - those would typically be the mediums and heaviums - they carry not because they are over powered, after all if you look at those very same millions of battles played by potatoes, most of the player base underperforms in them.  they carry because they are flexible, which allows the unicums to carry through superior map and battle awareness.

 

below are the tank curves for the Grille 15, and the Obj 140 - an alleged favorite of the try-hard, stat padders, and allegedly 'over powered russian hover med'...  neither have armor.  both are mobile enough to get an average potato over extended and smashed.  shockingly average and below average players are punished in both, and for above average players they both hit their overall averages...

 

 

 

 

wargaming rightfully does not balance tanks just because one tank occupies a low place on the total global win rate.  they data mine, and compare how a given tank performs in the hands of a player.  if a 45%er hits 55% in a certain tank, then clearly that tank is over performing...

 

one tank being dead last in a global metric doesn't mean it sucks.  that's like stating that the last place 100m dash olympian sprinter needs to be put down, or get a 'buff'...

 

 



teamoldmill #37 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 14:42

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140 starts winning a little earlier on the curve, fair enough, maybe I picked the wrong tank as a counter example. However, that being said, can you honestly look at the Grille's curve and say it is even a decent tank? I don't see how. 140 somehow wins 3.25% more of the time. I don't know how to square that.

 

Have a direct link to the tank curve site? I get Russian stuff when I search.

 

I agree about the Maus, it was buffed a little much.


Edited by teamoldmill, Sep 14 2017 - 14:48.


ThePigSheFlies #38 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 18:59

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View Postteamoldmill, on Sep 14 2017 - 08:42, said:

140 starts winning a little earlier on the curve, fair enough, maybe I picked the wrong tank as a counter example. However, that being said, can you honestly look at the Grille's curve and say it is even a decent tank? I don't see how. 140 somehow wins 3.25% more of the time. I don't know how to square that.

 

Have a direct link to the tank curve site? I get Russian stuff when I search.

 

I agree about the Maus, it was buffed a little much.

 

the tank curve site is indeed in russian.  I think it's wot-info or something similar.  

 

paper tanks with high mobility are always difficult to balance, even in this trash map meta.  I personally think that the grille 15 did not need the minor mobility nerf, or the reload nerf that it got as it was all too easy for average and sub-average players to get smoked in it with minimal impact on the game, and it likely showed in the tank curves that it didn't need the modest nerf that it got.

 

that being said, aside from wargaming data mining for balancing, they also have obviously been known to manipulate things in the interest of helping force players to churn/grind...  I personally find it laughable that the 140 got the 62a's turret, when the amx 30 ended up getting its gun handling and penetration RAPED in exchange for turret armor that is offset by a GIANT tumor on top, and dpm increase that puts it only 150dpm more than the 140.

 

but then, I'm hardly playing this game anymore.  I can handle the various tank changes enough with my huge garage and adapt.  my larger issue these days is boredom from 3 years of unchanging trash map meta.



zarg12 #39 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 19:03

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The tank needs no buff. Thank you very much and good bye.

FelixTactx #40 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 19:34

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View Postkishan99, on Sep 12 2017 - 04:22, said:

The second you get shot in the 15, your gun or engine is gone.  Not enough health, not good enough gun with a 16 second reload and only 750 average, useless armor (but I understand that the previous tiers had 0 armor too), losses modules quickly.

 

Option 1: Gun does 950-1475 damage, 19 second reload with 100% crew, medium to low penetration.  Keep the armor, since its basic for previous tiers.  Camo is fine.  Increase reverse speed and turn speed by 10%.   I understand its an accurate gun, but the low penetration should even it out.  

 

Option 2: Make the Grille 15 an autoloader.  550 Average damage with 4 rounds in the magazine.  26 second reload at 100% crew.  Medium to low penetration.  Each shot fired, expands the aiming circle, but the fast aiming should make it nice. Reload between shells is 1 second.  Armor and everything is the same.     

I don't get what your reasoning is here.... A mobile and sneaky TD with a DPM that is on par with other tier 10 TD's, so lets buff the dpm for no reason? The Grille 15 has 2,607 DPM, so keep that in mind. 

Option 2: increasing the alpha to 950 at a minimum with a 19 second reload would give it 3,000 DPM and don't expect them to give a 150mm gun that much damage. 

Option 2: Give it an auto loader that would put the WT E100 to shame with its 4,400 DPM, but with its "low" pen of 279mm and 334mm on the gold. 

(these numbers don't include crew skills and equipment)

 

Everything that you suggested would make this tank exactly what it was supposed to replace and better. This tank is a monster if you get a proper crew with a gun rammer because that puts the DPM at nearly 3000. 






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