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Italy will finally be in WoT...


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Isola_di_Fano #41 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 01:24

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Soldiers were good.

 

High Command was totally deficient and clueless.



landedkiller #42 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 01:31

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It was a month or two ago but wasn't there a Brazil tech tree proposal. I thought i saw a detailed Brazilian tech tree proposal on the forums and some of the tanks looked bad-[edited]. I need to find that post again

WangOnTheLoose #43 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 01:36

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View Postindoctrinated, on Sep 12 2017 - 16:41, said:

Why should the Italian tree have priority over the Israel tree when an Israel tree can be made complete from Tier 1 to Tier X?

 

Ummm well there is the obvious answer that they actually fought in WWII....... are you looking for another reason?

RatFink_ #44 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 01:59

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View PostShortcult, on Sep 12 2017 - 22:57, said:

Unfortunately, Italian tanks will only be able to participate for 9 minutes in a random battle.  They will then switch sides, have their guns disabled and be forced to hide in a corner.

 

What?  RU devs are gonna do this, you know it.

 

Also, they will be faster backing up then going forward!

Dirizon #45 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 02:07

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It's going to be a med line.

They will do like they did with Japanese med line, the first and easier line, extend it historically to tier 7. This will culminate with M15 42, very much like the Chi To, and instead of the 7 being something like Chi Ri, although it could be, they'll use the fast tank cruiser prototype M16 43 as their T7, upgunned of course. The ltalianline most resembles Japan and Czech inter war and WWll designs. 

 

Tier 8- changes massively. M47 probably undergunned with only 9cm guns, T9 license built 0T0 Melara Leo 1A2, T X Fiat 0F4O 0G, which seems to be an extremely similar design as Leo and AMX meds

 

they will first release P4O heavy tank, as a tier V prem ltaly heavy, comparable to things like Turan lll and Chin Nu Kai, and also introducing the line like Chi Nu Kai did for japan



madogthefirst #46 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 03:04

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View Posttanopasman62, on Sep 13 2017 - 08:16, said:

 

I demand white flags for my French tanks.

I demand the Liberte be painted the french national flag, white.



webco_2_75 #47 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 05:16

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View Post_Gungrave_, on Sep 13 2017 - 15:36, said:

 

Again...too many clone tanks because Middle Eastern nations bought up a lot of hand me down tanks from Russia, UK, and some from the US.

 

They could make some great historic battles of some of the best tank warfare since WWII with Arab and Israeli lines.  People might get butthurt about the topic for some reason but the Arab-Israeli wars were responsible for most of the actual post WWII tank on tank combat in the world and deserve representation in the game.  You could do a joint Middle Eastern line where the tiers of all the lines alternate between Arab and Israeli tanks just for giggles.... It would be amusing to listen to those with strong ideological preferences complain about having to play the other sides tanks lol... Make the lines really cool andit would be even funnier...

Edited by webco_2_75, Sep 14 2017 - 05:17.


StiffWind #48 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 05:26

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I'm sure they'll goof the tanks up...but it'll be nice to see a new line.

 



Isola_di_Fano #49 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 05:40

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View PostRatFink_, on Sep 13 2017 - 19:59, said:

 

Also, they will be faster backing up then going forward!

 

Dear friend, you could not be more wrong.

 

Italian tanks were so bad they could not back up. 

 

:facepalm:



StiffWind #50 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 05:44

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View PostIsola_di_Fano, on Sep 14 2017 - 05:40, said:

 

Dear friend, you could not be more wrong.

 

Italian tanks were so bad they could not back up.

 

:facepalm:

 

The Semovente was nick-named "the self-propelled coffin" for a reason.


 

 



tanopasman62 #51 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 05:53

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View Postwebco_2_75, on Sep 14 2017 - 05:16, said:

 

They could make some great historic battles of some of the best tank warfare since WWII with Arab and Israeli lines.  People might get butthurt about the topic for some reason but the Arab-Israeli wars were responsible for most of the actual post WWII tank on tank combat in the world and deserve representation in the game.  You could do a joint Middle Eastern line where the tiers of all the lines alternate between Arab and Israeli tanks just for giggles.... It would be amusing to listen to those with strong ideological preferences complain about having to play the other sides tanks lol... Make the lines really cool andit would be even funnier...

 

Let me put this the most clearly possible:

 

WE HAVE ENOUGH CLONES WITH THE CHINESE KNOCK OFF TECH TREE.

 

NO POLITICS HERE, JUST GAMEPLAY.

 

Thanks.



StiffWind #52 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 07:56

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The Israeli's tend to modify their equipment.  This is true with tanks as well as aircraft.  So they wouldn't be clones.  Clones would be more likely on the Arab side of the fence.


 

And nobody brought politics into the discussion except you.


 



TankFullOfBourbon #53 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 13:23

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View Postmworthy, on Sep 13 2017 - 22:48, said:

 

the only nonsense i see is from you. the terrible soldiers you are talking about were colonial forces while the actual army was decent. also were terrible just gonna leave this here https://ww2db.com/ba...p?battle_id=268   the sailors were chicken the ships never stayed in port they sank in port from british torpedo planes before they could leave. as i said they were in a war they were not ready for but the soldiers themselves had good training they were a good fighting force. they also had good frogmen

 

View PostBillT, on Sep 13 2017 - 23:35, said:

 

The general verdict of what I've read is that the Italians had terrible officers.  Their soldiers, often enough, were brave and capable, but they were being led by ill-trained amateurs, many of whom had bought their commissions.  They did better when led by German officers.  And they performed well enough in Russia.  The Germans were pleased by their performance in 1941 and 1942, and when the Soviets counterattacked to encircle Stalingrad the Italian units fought bravely enough even after the Romanians on their flanks disintegrated.

 

And there were plenty of cases where Italian soldiers excelled.  It's not for nothing that WOT has a medal named for Luigi Pascucci.

 

The British derided the Italian infantry, but had nothing but praise for their artillery corps.  Italian gunners earned a reputation for staying at their guns and fighting to the end, even after their infantry fled.  Their frogmen did in fact carry out an impressive, bold attack against Alexandria harbor, and plenty of their aviators fought heroically.

 

And I think logistics (along with lack of motorization) played a huge factor in Italy's awful performance in North Africa.  They deployed more troops there than they could adequately supply, and could only move slowly compared to the more mobile British forces.  Indeed, while the Italian invasion of Greece was a failure, it forced Britain to send many of their best troops from Egypt to defend Greece, improving the balance of power in North Africa.  In a  war of logistics it wasn't a bad strategy: "We can't support any more soldiers in Libya, but we can make Britain take soldiers out of Egypt."  And it worked: while the Brits were in Greece, Axis divisions in Libya forced the British Western Desert Force to retreat to Tobruk. It's just that the credit all went to Rommel, who arrived during this time and led a hasty offensive against the weakened Brits -- using mostly Italian soldiers, albeit well stiffened by the German 5th light division.

 

 

First, I think there's a misunderstanding about the term "soldiers". Officers are also soldiers and to paraphrase an old saying "No army is stronger than its' weakest link". Whether Italy had brave Privates or Corporals is besides the point, the Italian army (consisting of soldiers) caved in at slightest opposition. If Italy had good frogmen or if Pascucci was a hero is irrelevant. As a fighting army, Italy needed more support than they provided. In WOT terms, they were a 44% win rate player in a tier 10 battle - more negative impact than positive.


 

As for your point about logistics and strategy, I find it contradictory. At one side they screw up in regards to logistics, at the other they cunningly lure the brits to leave their positions in North Africa to support the Greeks, giving the Italians an opportunity in Libya/Egypt. I think they were lucky with the latter, it was hardly planned. If they couldn't plan that their army needed food and drink in North Africa, they hardly could form a cunning plan to lure the brits. Rather, they stretched their logistic lines ever further by opening a second front they couldn't support. If Rommel hadn't showed up, North Africa would have been in allied hands already in 1940/41.



Ripping #54 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 13:43

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View Postmworthy, on Sep 13 2017 - 19:44, said:

View PostRipping, on Sep 13 2017 - 07:04, said:

Do they come with a already mounted white flag on the turret, to match the real life events of the Italians in the war?

 

that would be france. we tend to forget the italian military was actually pretty good . their army could stand up to the british. and they ahd a better navy than the british they just never got the chance to use them.  they also had some pretty good frogmen. the entire reason italy lost was they were in a war they were not ready for coupled with the fact that most italians never wanted to be a world power. while their tanks were not the best for their time they were good unfortuantely that time war more pre war than during the war the italians built some decent tanks that fell into german hands but still italian built

 

 

You say their soldiers were better than the Brits in WW2..

 

Care to back any of this up with facts... Find any real battles where the Italians managed to beat the British army using their own weapons ?

 

I quote "

Italy declared war on 10 June 1940 and initially the Royal Army started a campaign with limited advances in the Alps against the French Army. But the French were not quickly defeated on this front and all advances came at a high cost to the Italian army. Only in July, after the French surrender to Germany, did the Royal Army initiate a limited campaign from Italian colonies in Africa (Libya and Italian East Africa) against the British in Africa (EgyptKenya, and the Sudan). Italian forces invaded into Egypt, Kenya, and the Sudan.

In August, the Royal Army obtained the only Italian victory in World War II without German intervention when it successfully carried out the conquest of British Somaliland. Indeed, in the first six months of war Italy obtained only minor conquests, as Mussolini mistakenly waited for a quick end of the war.

But soon Britain struck back at the end of that year. In December 1940, British and Commonwealth forces launched Operation Compass which, by February 1941, ended in the conquering of all of Cyrenaica and the complete destruction of a large Italian army. In January 1941, other British and Commonwealth forces launched an invasion of Italian East Africa. By November of that year, at the conclusion of the East African Campaign, the last organized Italian troops surrendered with military honors in Gondar while some Italian officers started a guerrilla war, mainly in Ethiopia and Eritrea."

 

Now as I read this, they had one minor victory before being handed their asses on a plate and defeat after defeat... LOL

 

So no, they could NOT stand up the the British.

 

 



BillT #55 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 14:53

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View PostTankFullOfBourbon, on Sep 14 2017 - 07:23, said:

 

First, I think there's a misunderstanding about the term "soldiers". Officers are also soldiers and to paraphrase an old saying "No army is stronger than its' weakest link". Whether Italy had brave Privates or Corporals is besides the point, the Italian army (consisting of soldiers) caved in at slightest opposition. 

 

Put that way, I wouldn't disagree (save to point out that on the Eastern Front, the Italian units performed competently, better than some Soviet units).  My reaction, though, was based on the over-generalization you made in your original posting when you said:

 

"Italians were terrible soldiers"

 

That made it sound like a racial thing, rather than a problem with the Italian military.



nicodeimous #56 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 17:04

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View PostExceedOmega, on Sep 12 2017 - 11:01, said:

Yay for more diversity

 

At the low to mid tiers - nato clones and such at the high tiers.

 

Just want a M13/40 to be honest - premium or silver.


Edited by nicodeimous, Sep 14 2017 - 17:05.


BrassFire #57 Posted Sep 15 2017 - 00:01

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View PostIndygoEEI, on Sep 12 2017 - 16:51, said:

 

You got your wish guys.  The Italians will be coming...  Soon™.

 

Also no Pink Tanks.... Ever!

 



I_brake_for_gnomes #58 Posted Nov 09 2017 - 23:22

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I have studied military history for close to 30 years now. The typical Italian soldier in WW2 was not well trained. Think of them more like conscripts then true soldiers. The colonial troops were basically the same as the Italian regular soldier. But the Italians did have some elite units (Alpini, Bersaglieri, for example) who were as good as any other elite unit. But the best Italian infantry during the war was the Folgore paratroopers. They were often praised by Rommel during the battles of North Africa and could be counted on by the Germans to fight.

The worst Italian troops were the Black Shirts or CCNNs. These were basically fascist party hacks who were more used to terrorizing then to actually fight. Early in the war they hardly had any military training. However once Mussolini saw how well the German SS troops were doing then he wanted his black shirts to be the same. So while 90% of the CCNN troops were horrible, there were some highly capable ones.

The Italians tank forces were highly trained as well. Their main problem was the poor quality of tank construction especially with the brittle steel. The best tanks the Italians had were the Semovente 75/18s which had special anti-tank rounds that could destroy any Allied tank in North Africa including the Matilda tank. The only problem with those tanks were there wasn't enough of them.

The number one problem the Italians had in World War Two was not the leadership but their lack of manufacturing capacity to meet the demands of the war. They did not have enough factories to make war material.

The number two problem was logistics. These people were very incompetent. When the Italian Expeditionary Force in the Soviet Union requested new artillery pieces to be sent the guns were actually sent to the North African front. The big problem with that is the guns meant for the eastern front came with special heating equipment so they could be used in cold weather. Which meant that the guns were useless in the desert. Also sending L3 tankettes to the eastern front was a dumb move as well.

The number three problem was not having enough experienced generals to lead the troops. The Italians did have some very good generals and officers but like the Imperial Russian army in World War One, there wasn't enough to go around.

Lastly was that although their tank designs were excellent they were basically 5 years too late. For example, when they brought out a new tank, such as the M13/40, in 1940. It would have been a world class tank for 1935. Not 1940. This actually ties into my first point. They had really good designs but it took too long for the actual unit to be produced. The P26/40 tank was approved for production in 1940 but it took three years for the tank to finally leave the factory floor. In wartime you need to speed these things up.

Lastly about the Italian Navy. For some reason the admiralty did not believe in radar and didn't have them installed onto their ships until it was too late in the war. After half the fleet got sunk in port by the British, the Italian Navy knew if they left port without radar than the fleet would be in danger. By the time they got around to upgrading their ships the country surrendered in 1943. In the meantime the Italians used their air force, submarines and special forces to attack and harass the British in the Mediterranean.

Didn't mean to write so much but Italy in WW1 and WW2 is a favorite topic of mine and have studied a lot of over the years. Plus this is a very brief account of the Italians in WW2. The Italian soldier was very brave because he knew his job was very tough with what he had. But he still went out there and did his best.



WhiteTigerKatyusha #59 Posted Nov 09 2017 - 23:36

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Let us get the L3/35 tankette, please! Light tank, 20mm AT gun, Tier II?

WhiteTigerKatyusha #60 Posted Nov 09 2017 - 23:39

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View PostDirizon, on Sep 14 2017 - 02:07, said:

It's going to be a med line.

They will do like they did with Japanese med line, the first and easier line, extend it historically to tier 7. This will culminate with M15 42, very much like the Chi To, and instead of the 7 being something like Chi Ri, although it could be, they'll use the fast tank cruiser prototype M16 43 as their T7, upgunned of course. The ltalianline most resembles Japan and Czech inter war and WWll designs. 

 

Tier 8- changes massively. M47 probably undergunned with only 9cm guns, T9 license built 0T0 Melara Leo 1A2, T X Fiat 0F4O 0G, which seems to be an extremely similar design as Leo and AMX meds

 

they will first release P4O heavy tank, as a tier V prem ltaly heavy, comparable to things like Turan lll and Chin Nu Kai, and also introducing the line like Chi Nu Kai did for japan

 

I would DEFINITELY buy a Piyo Piyo P40.




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