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Which tanks to re-balance in +1|-1 MM


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Dirizon #1 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 04:03

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Hey everyone. This is theorycrafting and does not apply, l just want people input on which truly need balancing in 1 tier spreads.

 

lVs: 

many would have Matilda come to mind, but l can't see that being true. Matilda is slow and easily outmaneuvered, and has only fair DPM. Gold rounds seem to wear it down fast too

 

V:

LeFH is definitely one. Giving it normal firing randomness like most 1O.5cm arty is a start, but also reducing fire rate and view range. 

T67 is definitely one, heck T67 needs nerfs even in current +2|-2 scene. 

.oi. EXP got appropriate nerfs already. 

I do not think ELC, M41 (maybe pre-nerf) S35CA, PZ lV S C are strong enough to worry about. 

 

Vl: 

KV2 and .oi. are still too strong as is, +2|-2. Consistent and constant over performers. 

ARL44 needs 1O.5cm gun gold round adjustment

SU1OO shares no faults of SU1OOY and should probably lose the 12.2cm. D1OS gun should be nerfed a bit like KV85 guns

Type 64 and AMX12T stand out as stronger LTs

Reduce T3485M DPM

Reduce 131FT DPM more like lkea 65

Maybe AMXF3?

 

Vll: 

E25  lol  E25 and LeFH should be the only tanks in the game given +3|-3 every match

T29

SU12244, lSU12.2, SU15.2

A1357, Type 62, T71 - obviously first 2 more so

S51

 

Vlll:

252Y, 252Y, 252Y, Defender, Defender, Defender, Chrysler, Chrysler, Chrysler, Lorraine, Lorraine, Lorraine, Scorp G, Skorp G, Skorp G, Liberte, Liberte, Liberte, lS3, IS3, lS3

All the tanks above, repeated. Should only be in tier 1O battles.

M41 GF 

VKO1P and 0H0 need weak spots like KV4 

T54 Mod 1

 

This is my take.



echo9835 #2 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 04:16

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any of the premium tanks probably will not ever see a big nerf, if you ever wonder why, think about what happened with the Super Pershing. Keep that in mind. basically everything would have to be reworked in 1-1 MM spread, as everything right now, even preferential MM tanks, is balanced around the 2-2 MM spread

 



CedricMacLaren #3 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 04:28

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Why would any tank outside of those with preferential MM need to be rebalanced?  And the few outliers like the Defender. 

Mikosah #4 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 04:28

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Remember that changing to +/-1 is a narrower spread in both directions, not just one. Many tanks that cause trouble because they can pick on something two tiers lower, or are non-viable because they have to deal with something two tiers higher, will actually be better balanced in +/-1 than they are now. If you ask me, the only stumbling block is tanks that are badly incompatible with the current system, and would have been rebalanced either way. In light of that I'd say just about every tank is already perfectly tuned for +/-1 MM.

 

Look at something like the Defender for example. One of its biggest problems is that tier 6s just can't handle it, and that tier 10s trample all over it. Give it +/-1 and suddenly this thing isn't nearly as ridiculous as it is now. I honestly have a very hard time thinking of any tank that'll actually have to change simply because of the transition from +/-2 to +/-1 MM. There's many tanks that should be rebalanced for other reasons, but not this reason. The question will really be how to compensate premiums that already have limited MM. KV-5 for instance. But WG can always solve that by simply improving its credit earnings and crew training bonuses. And as for tanks like the LeFH that are completely broken either way, that's a separate issue entirely.



Dirizon #5 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 04:37

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View Postecho9835, on Sep 12 2017 - 22:46, said:

any of the premium tanks probably will not ever see a big nerf, if you ever wonder why, think about what happened with the Super Pershing. Keep that in mind. basically everything would have to be reworked in 1-1 MM spread, as everything right now, even preferential MM tanks, is balanced around the 2-2 MM spread

 

 

this is a falsehood and something misunderstood, totally.

T3s were given a stealth -1|+1 spread. Not one tank was reworked. Not even the undeniable irrefutable T127.

lt works. WG just won't accept what works



JOSEPHINEISH #6 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 04:44

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Maybe.

Edited by JOSEPHINEISH, Sep 13 2017 - 04:48.


tanopasman62 #7 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 04:55

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They just added +/- 1 MM for tier 3 without touching a single tank.

 

Therefore, most tanks don't need any changes for a +/- 1 MM.

 

 



Dirizon #8 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 04:56

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View PostMikosah, on Sep 12 2017 - 22:58, said:

 

Look at something like the Defender for example. One of its biggest problems is that tier 6s just can't handle it, and that tier 10s trample all over it. Give it +/-1 and suddenly this thing isn't nearly as ridiculous as it is now. I honestly have a very hard time thinking of any tank that'll actually have to change simply because of the transition from +/-2 to +/-1 MM. There's many tanks that should be rebalanced for other reasons, but not this reason. The question will really be how to compensate premiums that already have limited MM. KV-5 for instance. But WG can always solve that by simply improving its credit earnings and crew training bonuses. And as for tanks like the LeFH that are completely broken either way, that's a separate issue entirely.

 

All tier 8 suffer against Xs. Those that suffer least however, are of course camo TDs that have long ranged damaging guns and are usually fast repositioners , AKA Udes, lSU, S1, SU1O1, Skorp G, Rhm Bors, Charioteer  and......Defender. More so than Cry-K and Liberte simply because it is moron proofed. Defender is basically an obj 26O frontal hull and sides, lS4 upper sides combined, with an improved lS6 turret, holding a higher damage inaccurate lS3 gun, which allows it to slash into the health of Xs better. Almost as fast as lS3 too. Defender IS a X tank, except the gun and view range. 

Vls can't handle it? 8s can't handle it, never mind Vls. Defender needs huge nerfs with +2|-2, never mind the obscene massive nerfs it would need +1|-1. No X tramples defender, except Type 5 because defender cannot pen it, and defenders armour won't block HE, and defender has little health to withstand such high damage HE. Maybe a close range FV18.3 1-shot, although sadly that 23O HESH can still non pen and splash defender lower hull 'weak spot' But defender will still bounce random Xs because of spaced side armour, autobounce upper hull, troll turret, non overmatch roof, and ridiculous  lS4 upper side hull



Dirizon #9 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 04:57

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View Posttanopasman62, on Sep 12 2017 - 23:25, said:

They just added +/- 1 MM for tier 3 without touching a single tank.

 

Therefore, most tanks don't need any changes for a +/- 1 MM.

 

 

 

View PostDirizon, on Sep 12 2017 - 23:07, said:

 

this is a falsehood and something misunderstood, totally.

T3s were given a stealth -1|+1 spread. Not one tank was reworked. Not even the undeniable irrefutable T127.

lt works. WG just won't accept what works

 

l know

tanopasman62 #10 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 05:32

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Now that I'm done playing, sadly most of the tanks that would need to be nerfed to adapt to a +/- 1 MM are premium tanks and we know WG's modus operandi on the subject.

 

And now that O-I Experimental was nerfed then there's no real reason to rework tier 6 and below as tanks are usually balanced to fight tanks a tier higher while tanks a tier lower would still have a chance against them, perhaps weaken AT2's cuppola a little bit, but that's it.

 

The major problem with VK 100.01 is that its pretty much invulnerable to tier 6s while its an XP piñata for tier 10s, tier 7s on the other hand can reliably pen the lower plate and some of them will go through the cuppola with gold rounds and its armor its still workable enough against tier 9s.

 

In most tanks, what would need a rework are gold rounds, you don't really need over 200 pen in a tier 5, no tank, not even the O-I has that many armor. 

 

AMX 12t could lose a round on its clip so it can't clip out tier 5s, while receiving according clip reload times, 10-13 seconds would do, but even then it's not really game breaking.

 

And Japanese heavies need weakspots, so you can pen them without gold.

 


Mikosah #11 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 06:23

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View PostDirizon, on Sep 12 2017 - 21:56, said:

 

All tier 8 suffer against Xs. Those that suffer least however, are of course camo TDs that have long ranged damaging guns and are usually fast repositioners , AKA Udes, lSU, S1, SU1O1, Skorp G, Rhm Bors, Charioteer  and......Defender. More so than Cry-K and Liberte simply because it is moron proofed. Defender is basically an obj 26O frontal hull and sides, lS4 upper sides combined, with an improved lS6 turret, holding a higher damage inaccurate lS3 gun, which allows it to slash into the health of Xs better. Almost as fast as lS3 too. Defender IS a X tank, except the gun and view range. 

Vls can't handle it? 8s can't handle it, never mind Vls. Defender needs huge nerfs with +2|-2, never mind the obscene massive nerfs it would need +1|-1. No X tramples defender, except Type 5 because defender cannot pen it, and defenders armour won't block HE, and defender has little health to withstand such high damage HE. Maybe a close range FV18.3 1-shot, although sadly that 23O HESH can still non pen and splash defender lower hull 'weak spot' But defender will still bounce random Xs because of spaced side armour, autobounce upper hull, troll turret, non overmatch roof, and ridiculous  lS4 upper side hull

 

I totally agree that Defender armor is pure ebola, but that's a problem that we'd be dealing with no matter what the MM spread is. Narrowing the MM to +/-1 wouldn't make this armor situation any worse than it already is, that's the major takeaway here. Any rebalancing to fix this problem would have been just as necessary either way. And removing extreme scenarios like rolling over tier 6s or having tier 10s autobounce the upper glacis closes the gap between the Defender and all the rest of the tier 8s, if only a little.

The_Wehraboo #12 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 06:56

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P L E A S E F O R T H E L O V E O F G O D U S E " 0 " A N D N O T " O " .

 

Thank you.



johnmadara #13 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 06:58

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I dont really have a problem with most tier 8s except the most OP ones only available for money

lionheart1118 #14 Posted Sep 13 2017 - 11:12

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View PostDirizon, on Sep 13 2017 - 03:56, said:

 

All tier 8 suffer against Xs. Those that suffer least however, are of course camo TDs that have long ranged damaging guns and are usually fast repositioners , AKA Udes, lSU, S1, SU1O1, Skorp G, Rhm Bors, Charioteer  and......Defender. More so than Cry-K and Liberte simply because it is moron proofed. Defender is basically an obj 26O frontal hull and sides, lS4 upper sides combined, with an improved lS6 turret, holding a higher damage inaccurate lS3 gun, which allows it to slash into the health of Xs better. Almost as fast as lS3 too. Defender IS a X tank, except the gun and view range. 

Vls can't handle it? 8s can't handle it, never mind Vls. Defender needs huge nerfs with +2|-2, never mind the obscene massive nerfs it would need +1|-1. No X tramples defender, except Type 5 because defender cannot pen it, and defenders armour won't block HE, and defender has little health to withstand such high damage HE. Maybe a close range FV18.3 1-shot, although sadly that 23O HESH can still non pen and splash defender lower hull 'weak spot' But defender will still bounce random Xs because of spaced side armour, autobounce upper hull, troll turret, non overmatch roof, and ridiculous  lS4 upper side hull

Stopped reading once you said t8s can't handle a defender, that is moronic. I have killed defenders and been killed by t8s all the time. They can handle it fine. You should feel bad for making your post.



Dirizon #15 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 02:23

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View Postlionheart1118, on Sep 13 2017 - 05:42, said:

Stopped reading once you said t8s can't handle a defender, that is moronic. I have killed defenders and been killed by t8s all the time. They can handle it fine. You should feel bad for making your post.

 

defender can be penetrated by a tier 6. Church GC or Firefly can load gold ammo, and penetrate defender more or less reliable. Same with SU1OO, Jackson, hellcat, M6. Unfortunately, handle'''' doesn't mean penetrate''''. Defender outwardly stomps any other T8 in direct contact. It is moronic to say otherwise. 2/3rd of the front is auto bounce, the sides are a mix of lS4 and lS7 profiles as well as spaced armour segment, the gun despression isn't too handicapped, and weak spots are small. Fairly well armoured too, as lower glacis is about as strong as King Tiger hull....cupolas are real small, and still decent armour, and no roof overmatch because 5O+mm In addition, it has a huge 44O alpha high pen gun, on top of already great 39O alpha from an lS3.

 

225~ AP is fifty-fifty basically against lower hull, and is heavy tank standard. Turret and upper bounce that easy. No other heavy except 112, 11O, AC48, Liberte, VKO1P do that and those have far more flaws than defender.

defender is the one eight......to rule them all.



lionheart1118 #16 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 11:06

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View PostDirizon, on Sep 14 2017 - 01:23, said:

 

defender can be penetrated by a tier 6. Church GC or Firefly can load gold ammo, and penetrate defender more or less reliable. Same with SU1OO, Jackson, hellcat, M6. Unfortunately, handle'''' doesn't mean penetrate''''. Defender outwardly stomps any other T8 in direct contact. It is moronic to say otherwise. 2/3rd of the front is auto bounce, the sides are a mix of lS4 and lS7 profiles as well as spaced armour segment, the gun despression isn't too handicapped, and weak spots are small. Fairly well armoured too, as lower glacis is about as strong as King Tiger hull....cupolas are real small, and still decent armour, and no roof overmatch because 5O+mm In addition, it has a huge 44O alpha high pen gun, on top of already great 39O alpha from an lS3.

 

225~ AP is fifty-fifty basically against lower hull, and is heavy tank standard. Turret and upper bounce that easy. No other heavy except 112, 11O, AC48, Liberte, VKO1P do that and those have far more flaws than defender.

defender is the one eight......to rule them all.

I didn't say just pen, I said handled. I have no more problems fighting a defender than I do fighting all those other tanks you listed. And when I play my defender the lower hull gets penned just as often as my 112, maybe even more so since it's god damn huge in comparison. There are times when it's getting penned in spots that would for a 112 have it's lfp hidden. The lfp is almost the size of a light tank lol. I bounce more shots on the cupola of the go 100.01p than I ever do the lfp of a defender.



lionheart1118 #17 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 11:10

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Wasn't there something said about not selling it again much like the type 59? I mean it's not like when the type 59 was considered op I don't see platoons of defenders. In fact I rarely ever see more than 1 on a team and even then I don't see 1 every game. And I play t8 more than any other tier.

NeatoMan #18 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 12:12

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luchs.




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