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OMG MM IS BROKEN


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Fractured_Raptor #1 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 11:52

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I'm sure plenty of people have said this already, either in the comments of other threads or with topics of their own, but I thought I'd add my opinion. Match Maker works most of the time. Now and then it drinks the Kool-Aid and stacks one side with super heavies and gives the other side none. Or the amount of Destroyers is laughably one sided. Outside of that it isn't Match Maker that's the problem. It's the player base. For every competent or good player we have there's hundreds of bad ones, don't quote me on that or take it as statistical fact. It's a number for comparison and that's it. That's where the argument for skill based match making comes in .. and that's a terrible idea. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it myself but let's face the facts. We don't have the server numbers to make it viable. Like I said there's more bad than good. While the bad are having decent que times the good players will wait a lot longer to see a match, the really great ones will wait even longer than that. As much as I hate going up against some of them, the ones who don't pad in lower tiers then throw premium in high tiers to look like they're good, no one should be punished to make things easier on the average or bad players.

 

There's also the mindset of players to consider. A lot of people farm the worse players, worse by comparison to their ability, and if skill based matches were a thing they'd no longer have that. They'd always see people who're on their tier. That means we'd see a metric ton of posts about how it's horrible and I'd rather not deal with that. Outside of making que times longer for better players there's virtually nothing WarGaming can do to fix the problem. Ron White said it best. You can't fix stupid. Sure, some or a good number of the worse off players can be taught and improve but I'd bet my bottom dollar that another big bunch can't. You can sit the tank inside a barn, have it pre aimed at the wall, and they'd still miss. I guess all we can do, for now or forever, is stick to detachments to make sure you're rolling with a crew who's on your tier. And to you bad players out there who read this ... don't take this as an insult. It's a video game and video games are meant to be enjoyable. If you enjoy tanking then keep doing it. You do you and I'll do me, can't vouch for everyone else. See you on the battlefield Commanders! 



Awestryker #2 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 12:10

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MM is fine...hard work and effort = wins...

F0R_M07H3R_RU5514 #3 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 12:11

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View PostFractured_Raptor, on Sep 14 2017 - 05:52, said:

It isn't Match Maker that's the problem. It's the player base.

 

Yes, it is, without a doubt, the players.  However, we all get the same players, and they're all bad, except, as you noted, the outliers.  Unfortunately, without those bottom 60%, the game on NA would surely die.  I don't know how MM would handle a peak of 7k users in prime time with as few as a couple of hundred in off-hours.  Plus, many, if not a majority of these players are pumping cash into the game in the form of premium time and tanks.  The elite and very good players are undoubtedly funding much of their premium time with tournament or clan gold.  I don't come anywhere close to that category and I'm still sitting on 20k tournament gold from back in 2015.

 

Unfortunately, skill-based MM isn't really the answer.  It wouldn't have the impact most folks desire, which is competitive non-ROFLstomp games.  The snowball impact that most feel would be alleviated by skill-based MM would continue to happen, as it a part of the game and happens even at elite levels of play.  Go back and look on Yoube for the Anfield compilation of PURPL vs -G- clan war.  These were the best of the best.  Two clans of uber-elite players.  They picked the tanks they wanted.  They planned an agreed-upon strategy.  They knew the map they were playing on.  Nothing was left for discussion.  Yet, almost all of the battles were, what we might refer to as ROFLstomp - landslides.  So, skill-based MM wont solve that problem.



MacDaddyMatty #4 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 12:16

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Sometimes you are the windshield, sometimes you are the bug.

More often, you are two old ladies fighting over the last box of prunes at Walmart.


 

GL HF!



Fractured_Raptor #5 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 12:25

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View PostF0R_M07H3R_RU5514, on Sep 14 2017 - 06:11, said:

 

Yes, it is, without a doubt, the players.  However, we all get the same players, and they're all bad, except, as you noted, the outliers.  Unfortunately, without those bottom 60%, the game on NA would surely die.  I don't know how MM would handle a peak of 7k users in prime time with as few as a couple of hundred in off-hours.  Plus, many, if not a majority of these players are pumping cash into the game in the form of premium time and tanks.  The elite and very good players are undoubtedly funding much of their premium time with tournament or clan gold.  I don't come anywhere close to that category and I'm still sitting on 20k tournament gold from back in 2015.

 

Unfortunately, skill-based MM isn't really the answer.  It wouldn't have the impact most folks desire, which is competitive non-ROFLstomp games.  The snowball impact that most feel would be alleviated by skill-based MM would continue to happen, as it a part of the game and happens even at elite levels of play.  Go back and look on Yoube for the Anfield compilation of PURPL vs -G- clan war.  These were the best of the best.  Two clans of uber-elite players.  They picked the tanks they wanted.  They planned an agreed-upon strategy.  They knew the map they were playing on.  Nothing was left for discussion.  Yet, almost all of the battles were, what we might refer to as ROFLstomp - landslides.  So, skill-based MM wont solve that problem.

 

Same. I consider myself to be okay at the most. I have moments of being super and I'm trying to make that a more permanent thing. Bad players, the ones who just can't get better, shouldn't be shoved away from the game. They're the bread and butter that keeps the game alive. I have no proof of that but I'm pretty sure an enormous chunk of WarGarming's income comes from people who aren't statistically good or great. That's why I told them to keep playing and do them, if they enjoy it that's all that really matters. In some cases an individual tank class can make things one sided, more often than not it's skill. I can't even count the amount of times half of my time did one or two shots of damage. Hell, I've seen the knowledgeable players do the same thing. They don't do it as frequently. It goes to show that snowballs and bad decisions can happen to anyone. At least I'm not alone with this mindset. Honestly I was expecting some trolling. That seems to be the norm around here. I don't think I'm good enough to earn a decent amount of gold through my clan, I've never tried either. Would be kinda nice though. I have almost a million and a half free experience I could use on something. 

Edited by Fractured_Raptor, Sep 14 2017 - 12:26.


Thornir #6 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 12:48

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View PostF0R_M07H3R_RU5514, on Sep 14 2017 - 12:11, said:

 

Yes, it is, without a doubt, the players.  However, we all get the same players, and they're all bad, except, as you noted, the outliers.  Unfortunately, without those bottom 60%, the game on NA would surely die.  I don't know how MM would handle a peak of 7k users in prime time with as few as a couple of hundred in off-hours.  Plus, many, if not a majority of these players are pumping cash into the game in the form of premium time and tanks.  The elite and very good players are undoubtedly funding much of their premium time with tournament or clan gold.  I don't come anywhere close to that category and I'm still sitting on 20k tournament gold from back in 2015.

 

Unfortunately, skill-based MM isn't really the answer.  It wouldn't have the impact most folks desire, which is competitive non-ROFLstomp games.  The snowball impact that most feel would be alleviated by skill-based MM would continue to happen, as it a part of the game and happens even at elite levels of play.  Go back and look on Yoube for the Anfield compilation of PURPL vs -G- clan war.  These were the best of the best.  Two clans of uber-elite players.  They picked the tanks they wanted.  They planned an agreed-upon strategy.  They knew the map they were playing on.  Nothing was left for discussion.  Yet, almost all of the battles were, what we might refer to as ROFLstomp - landslides.  So, skill-based MM wont solve that problem.

Excellent post. 

 

With regards to a "skill based" MM, how could "skill" be effectively and consistently measured, even? Think about it, pick a current measurement. WR? What if I am purple overall, but suck in a particular tank? Sort me by the tank, or overall? What if my overall WR is a pretty blue, but 90% of my games are platoons with better players? Etc., etc.

 

if you try to take the random out of random battles, the effort will just lead to detectable "paths" to success, different than the ones we have now, but arguably no better. 

 

And i I agree wholeheartedly that the effort needs to be made to preserve the player base, because as long as we have players, we'll have a game. 

 

This is is one of the main reasons I advocate so strongly for people to quit demanding removal of game elements that make it unique and engaging. Yes, arty, but also things like kemping bush and autoloaders and premium ammo and all the things that may frustrate each of us individually from time to time,  but also keep us coming back AND give ALL

players a way and a chance to play the game.

 

if, as a collective community, we are "successful" in burning WoT to the ground in the effort to gratify our individual, selfish demands - what then? If the other options existed or didn't suck, we wouldn't be here. But they aren't there, or they do suck. 

 

So ffs, could we please stop trying to destroy parts of the house others live in to try to make it better for a few? Add on to the house. Keep the game alive. 



Awestryker #7 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 13:33

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View PostFractured_Raptor, on Sep 14 2017 - 06:25, said:

 

Same. I consider myself to be okay at the most. I have moments of being super and I'm trying to make that a more permanent thing. Bad players, the ones who just can't get better, shouldn't be shoved away from the game. They're the bread and butter that keeps the game alive. I have no proof of that but I'm pretty sure an enormous chunk of WarGarming's income comes from people who aren't statistically good or great. That's why I told them to keep playing and do them, if they enjoy it that's all that really matters. In some cases an individual tank class can make things one sided, more often than not it's skill. I can't even count the amount of times half of my time did one or two shots of damage. Hell, I've seen the knowledgeable players do the same thing. They don't do it as frequently. It goes to show that snowballs and bad decisions can happen to anyone. At least I'm not alone with this mindset. Honestly I was expecting some trolling. That seems to be the norm around here. I don't think I'm good enough to earn a decent amount of gold through my clan, I've never tried either. Would be kinda nice though. I have almost a million and a half free experience I could use on something. 

 

I think your about where I was at your game count...so don't be to hard on yourself or the system...

 

The only way to win when you have the most tomatoes on your team is to find a way to step up and take the place of 2 or 3 of them, especially if you are top tier...

 

Look at the win rate and wn8 of each of your tanks. Stop playing any tanks you do really really bad in...concentrate on playing tanks with your highest win rates and wn8.

 

Watch online content (Youtube videos) from unicums or near unicums, like Zeven, Lemmingrush, Anfield, Taugrim, 4Tankersanddog, and many others...

 


Edited by Awestryker, Sep 14 2017 - 13:51.


Lucudus58 #8 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 14:30

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View PostAwestryker, on Sep 14 2017 - 12:10, said:

MM is fine...hard work and effort = wins...

 

But you can play your very best and still lose and does not matter how good you are.I played a match in my T-29 and was only heave to their 5 and it did not take long to take me out.It is not just the MM but how they Balance out the Heavies on one side compared to the other side and if it is 5 to 1 you know the outcome of the match already.

Thornir #9 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 14:34

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View PostLucudus58, on Sep 14 2017 - 14:30, said:

 

But you can play your very best and still lose and does not matter how good you are.I played a match in my T-29 and was only heave to their 5 and it did not take long to take me out.It is not just the MM but how they Balance out the Heavies on one side compared to the other side and if it is 5 to 1 you know the outcome of the match already.

First sentence: in any given game you might lose no matter how good you are, but the better you are the fewer of those games you face. Being a better player does make a positive difference;

 

second sentence: more heavy tanks doesn't mean auto win. In fact, my observation has been that the team with the most mediums normally wins. 



Komitadjie #10 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 14:35

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From time to time you sure have to wonder. Had one last night that made me shake my head. Team skill was actually pretty balanced, surprisingly, by WN8.

But map was mines, tier 10 game. Our three tens were a Batchat, a Conqurer, and a... 103, I think. Could be wrong on that one. They had THREE Type 5s. And a full platoon of Scorp Gs, along with one more single one.

Yeah, we lasted about six minutes, mostly because several of our TDs did an awesome job of forting up in the rocks at the end of the island for a last stand. Main game was over in about three.  I personally managed a FFE in the S1 before getting demolished by a pair of type-5 hits seconds apart when I didn't duck fast enough at the four minute mark.

Edited by Komitadjie, Sep 14 2017 - 14:37.


holdmecloserTonyDanza #11 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 14:39

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The skill mismatches get annoying cause it just sure seems odd that with 300 players in queue that magically all the blues/purples end up on one team...however I have to agree with most of what is being said.  you really just have to accept that everyone gets the same crappy teams.  while it is the exception, smashing a clearly more skilled team 15-3 is pretty enjoyable.  at least they've fixed the huge tank class imbalances and tier imbalances that was a much bigger problem

LeaveIT2Beaver #12 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 14:50

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IMHO it is  pew-pew players who just do not care.
Guess which players are in over their heads and then try to tell everyone else what to do,ping the map over and over, camp, cusses everyone else out when they get whacked.

 


Edited by LeaveIT2Beaver, Sep 14 2017 - 15:51.


_Schneller_Heinz_ #13 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 15:06

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View PostAwestryker, on Sep 14 2017 - 12:10, said:

MM is fine...hard work and effort = wins...

 



_Schneller_Heinz_ #14 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 15:08

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View PostKomitadjie, on Sep 14 2017 - 14:35, said:

From time to time you sure have to wonder. Had one last night that made me shake my head. Team skill was actually pretty balanced, surprisingly, by WN8.

But map was mines, tier 10 game. Our three tens were a Batchat, a Conqurer, and a... 103, I think. Could be wrong on that one. They had THREE Type 5s. And a full platoon of Scorp Gs, along with one more single one.

Yeah, we lasted about six minutes, mostly because several of our TDs did an awesome job of forting up in the rocks at the end of the island for a last stand. Main game was over in about three.  I personally managed a FFE in the S1 before getting demolished by a pair of type-5 hits seconds apart when I didn't duck fast enough at the four minute mark.

 

The M103 is a Tier IX!

Komitadjie #15 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 15:12

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View Post_Schneller_Heinz_, on Sep 14 2017 - 15:08, said:

 

The M103 is a Tier IX!

 

Then it probably wasn't a 103! Although with that team comp, they may as well have just given us tier 4s and laughed. Lol



Oprawindfury #16 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 16:28

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View PostFractured_Raptor, on Sep 14 2017 - 11:25, said:

 

Same. I consider myself to be okay at the most. I have moments of being super and I'm trying to make that a more permanent thing. Bad players, the ones who just can't get better, shouldn't be shoved away from the game. They're the bread and butter that keeps the game alive. I have no proof of that but I'm pretty sure an enormous chunk of WarGarming's income comes from people who aren't statistically good or great. That's why I told them to keep playing and do them, if they enjoy it that's all that really matters. In some cases an individual tank class can make things one sided, more often than not it's skill. I can't even count the amount of times half of my time did one or two shots of damage. Hell, I've seen the knowledgeable players do the same thing. They don't do it as frequently. It goes to show that snowballs and bad decisions can happen to anyone. At least I'm not alone with this mindset. Honestly I was expecting some trolling. That seems to be the norm around here. I don't think I'm good enough to earn a decent amount of gold through my clan, I've never tried either. Would be kinda nice though. I have almost a million and a half free experience I could use on something. 

 

I am not a good player but always try my best. I also put a lot of real money into the game for stuff i like. What I don't like is always being harrased mainly by clan palyers about how bad i am. Makes me not want to play anymore.

nicodeimous #17 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 16:46

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I personally love the current MM, having played through since the beginning of Beta [literally a week or so after Alpha ended] and having fought against far worse odds constantly.  I can't really remember a time where I was consistently top tier either and so my tank choices reflect a certain tacit understanding about the MM.  I will be fighting as a low tier in a two tier spread, so I pick tanks with penetration to hold there own against the top tier tanks.  if I am grinding a tank I go in KNOWING I will be bottom tier and so tactically adjust before hand mentally.

 

Currently the biggest issue I see in MM [especially in the 3/5/7 format] is that the 3 at the top don't ever seem to realize they have to WORK more to get the win, there aren't others there tier to help them sponge damage or avoid enemy contact or all the other issues I have seen.  You can tell quickly what kind of player it is too by watching there first move locations - and if they hide / run / lag back your more than likely boned.  Not saying the mids and lows can't over come the high tier tanks - its just they have to work even harder to do so while being handy capped by the sponge high tier player.   As a low tier I routinely run in the top quarter of the team damage wise and often first or second - this is a clear indicator to me that the higher tier tanks aren't doing well when the weight of them team depends on them [while I see the enemy team's high tiers in the top four or so].

 

Either way MM is a far cry better than it was - I really don't see much more they can do.  Players playing badly is out of there hands really.



C6Tango #18 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 16:54

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Ever occur to you guys that you are exceptional at this game if your a blue or purple level player, and that most of us are simply average. We're not bad, your exceptionally good.  This game reflects the real world in so much as most of us are average, many are above average, few are exceptional. This is why it's so difficult to get into the NFL, NBA or play in the masters. A very few of us are exceptional.

 

Had Tiger Woods been a WOT player, when he was at this peak, he would have hung out on the local golf course yelling insults at the average golfers for not being him.

 

Play tourneys, play ranked, play that thingy with the maps. OR play on the local golf course, where you can dominate, because we're mostly average.

 

But for God's sake, get over yourselves...

 



LeaveIT2Beaver #19 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 20:55

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View PostC6Tango, on Sep 14 2017 - 10:54, said:

Ever occur to you guys that you are exceptional at this game if your a blue or purple level player, and that most of us are simply average. We're not bad, your exceptionally good.  This game reflects the real world in so much as most of us are average, many are above average, few are exceptional. This is why it's so difficult to get into the NFL, NBA or play in the masters. A very few of us are exceptional.

 

Had Tiger Woods been a WOT player, when he was at this peak, he would have hung out on the local golf course yelling insults at the average golfers for not being him.

 

Play tourneys, play ranked, play that thingy with the maps. OR play on the local golf course, where you can dominate, because we're mostly average.

 

But for God's sake, get over yourselves...

 

  Well said

 



Boneheadded #20 Posted Sep 14 2017 - 21:39

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I just have to say something that has been bothering me for a while now. For the most part MM is better than it was before and match times are significantly faster, during peak hrs it is usually less than 20 seconds and you are in a new game and that is great when you have personal reserves running. I am no unicum and do not think I will ever achieve that level seeing as how the match making system on averages puts blues greens and purples stacked one one side or the other. This makes game play uneven when they completely roll the other team with out much effort. There needs to be some way to balance out the skill base in a tiered way like the tanks and levels to pose a challenge to players but not stack them all on one side. I see many of the green, blue and purple players are happy in the fact that they have no challenge and when players of lesser skill complain they just relish in their triumph. Seeing as how I will most definitely get some backlash about whining or complaining about how match making is broken I would love for players to remember where they came from and not bash others because they are where they are and rather understand the new challenges players are facing.




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