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3 tier battles a deterrent for new players?


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Tedsc #1 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 00:53

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Once you get to tier 5 and 6 the newness wears off.  At that point you are grinding stock tanks with less than 100% crews.  Roughly half of your battles are bottom tier.  Wargaming says you can be effective in that KV1 against a fully upgraded T29 who may or may not have a 100% crew and a few skills/perks to boot.  

 

That game play experience is not fun.  Some people see it as the painful process to be endured to get to the tier 9 and 10 games where vehicles are much more equal.  But how many other just see it as a poorly designed game and move on to something else?

 

When I just started playing WoT, I asked a few other people about it and a common theme was that it is a game that exists for people who have played forever.  The odds heavily tilted in their favor so unless you are prepared to be the underdog for a very long time, don't bother.

 

3 tier battles is largely where that sentiment comes from IMO.



Kamahl1234 #2 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 01:10

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One of the biggest hurdles new players have to overcome, while in part what you're saying, is also the same misguided mindset you seem to be expressing.

 

What this hurdle is, is realizing that no matter what tank you're in, you shouldn't press a tank with advantages over you by yourself, unless you have no choice. New players struggle with this concept, and even experienced players do. A KV-1 will never fight a T29 in solo combat on even ground and be victorious. Same thing would happen with a KV-1 vs a KV-85, or even a sniping T67. There will always be a tank with advantages over yours. 

 

It's not something like poor design, poor design is forcing new players and veterans into the same favor without RNG. Bottom tier tanks shouldn't be on equal footing, even equal tier tanks will always have the noob being the underdog for the vast majority of their experiences. This is actually common in most games, where experience simply wins out. 

 

 

IMO this sentiment actually comes from players not realizing that experience with a game simply makes you incredibly better at a game, and that they have to start at the bottom of that totem pole to get there. There isn't a way around it. 

Remember one very important thing for your argument, that AW did this very thing, and had a 2 tier spread. Top tiers still wiped the floor with people. Experienced players still wiped the floor with people of their own tier and even those of a higher one. 

 

That said, MM isn't perfect, but having played as long as I have, the biggest hurdle isn't MM, it's simply the wall of information that players need to know to do well in this game. There really isn't a way around this particular hurdle other than research and experience. Smoothing it out simply will take the flavor and fun out of the game for frankly the majority. 



Nudnick #3 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 01:12

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Everyone I've introduced to the game left within a month. I guess you have to be a special kind of masochist to stick with it. Or just plain stubborn.

Tedsc #4 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 01:26

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View PostKamahl1234, on Sep 19 2017 - 01:10, said:

One of the biggest hurdles new players have to overcome, while in part what you're saying, is also the same misguided mindset you seem to be expressing.

 

What this hurdle is, is realizing that no matter what tank you're in, you shouldn't press a tank with advantages over you by yourself, unless you have no choice. New players struggle with this concept, and even experienced players do. A KV-1 will never fight a T29 in solo combat on even ground and be victorious. Same thing would happen with a KV-1 vs a KV-85, or even a sniping T67. There will always be a tank with advantages over yours. 

 

It's not something like poor design, poor design is forcing new players and veterans into the same favor without RNG. Bottom tier tanks shouldn't be on equal footing, even equal tier tanks will always have the noob being the underdog for the vast majority of their experiences. This is actually common in most games, where experience simply wins out. 

 

 

IMO this sentiment actually comes from players not realizing that experience with a game simply makes you incredibly better at a game, and that they have to start at the bottom of that totem pole to get there. There isn't a way around it. 

Remember one very important thing for your argument, that AW did this very thing, and had a 2 tier spread. Top tiers still wiped the floor with people. Experienced players still wiped the floor with people of their own tier and even those of a higher one. 

 

That said, MM isn't perfect, but having played as long as I have, the biggest hurdle isn't MM, it's simply the wall of information that players need to know to do well in this game. There really isn't a way around this particular hurdle other than research and experience. Smoothing it out simply will take the flavor and fun out of the game for frankly the majority. 

If you want people to focus on their roles in a team, you have to give people the tools to be effective in their role. A KV1 should be able to take on a heavy tank role.  As a bottom tier, a KV1 isn't going to break through anything.  Its not going to tank in the traditional gaming sense and it honestly cannot even off tank from bottom tier.  Its slow with a weak pen and alpha from bottom tier so it cannot effetively support fire either.  What it can do is wait for the next battle and hope MM is more kind.

 

Why would I want to endure that as a new player?



Kamahl1234 #5 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 01:42

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View PostTedsc, on Sep 19 2017 - 00:26, said:

If you want people to focus on their roles in a team, you have to give people the tools to be effective in their role. A KV1 should be able to take on a heavy tank role.  As a bottom tier, a KV1 isn't going to break through anything.  Its not going to tank in the traditional gaming sense and it honestly cannot even off tank from bottom tier.  Its slow with a weak pen and alpha from bottom tier so it cannot effetively support fire either.  What it can do is wait for the next battle and hope MM is more kind.

 

Why would I want to endure that as a new player?

 

A heavy tanks role shifts as the opponents do. Armor isn't going to be balanced if it can withstand +2 tiers of the same class without much issue. When bottom tier as a heavy you gauge your opponents and play roles accordingly, if they're low pen, your armor might work somewhat, if they're bigger tanks, you play a support role and assist the other tanks on your team in engaging it, but never solo or the primary target of the opponent. 

 

I don't see why you think it can't support, the gun has similar stats to even some tier 7 medium tanks, which will always see those +2 heavies your KV-1 does. A KV-1 is good at harassing nearby mediums with armor that might bounce well if angled, assisting with taking down distracted enemy heavies, and generally being a nuisance to the enemy team. But it also suffers in the way all heavies will, without same-tier MM, as tanks above them are rightfully better heavies.

 

Think about it this way. If you played a sport, say paintball with a group of people, and each team had veterans and new players alike. Would you want to solo a guy much more skilled than you are? Or will you try to catch him distracted, or with a friend or two to gang up on him. The guy will have a clear advantage over you and you'll most likely lose solo. Facing him head on by yourself is in game terms practically suicide. 

 

This is the problem, you're seeing a challenge and a situation where you're not dominant as something to "endure" as it's a punishment. It's an opportunity, both to challenge your abilities and learn/experiment with new tactics. The tanks that carry games aren't always top tier, often they will be experienced players in bottom tier tanks as they understand how to properly put the tank to use when bottom tier. This simply comes through practice. 

 

WoT isn't an easy game, it takes a lot to get good at this. It's meant to be challenging, but also rewarding as you get better. A veteran and a noob play the same game, it's the player that differentiates them. 

 

Part of the problem is a lot of games simply handhold players in non-PvP play, so PvP becomes hard, and this is a game where PvP is the primary aspect and it doesn't really hold your hand. 



GeorgePreddy #6 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 02:02

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View PostTedsc, on Sep 18 2017 - 20:53, said:

tier 5 and 6.... At that point you are grinding stock tanks with less than 100% crews.     If  "you are grinding stock tanks with less than 100% crews" at tier 5 and 6, then YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG !!!

 

 



HOTA_CHATON #7 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 02:08

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View PostKamahl1234, on Sep 18 2017 - 18:10, said:

the same misguided mindset you seem to be expressing.

 

 

 

 

OP has a very good point but, someone seems to be a kool aide drinker and miss the point of the post.



Tedsc #8 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 02:11

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on Sep 19 2017 - 02:02, said:

 

The focus is on new players not players with mostly top tier tanks adding a new line.  Free XP isn't an option for newbies who are likely grinding 5-8 lines at the same time.  


Edited by Tedsc, Sep 19 2017 - 02:21.


Blucraft #9 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 02:25

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View PostNudnick, on Sep 18 2017 - 17:12, said:

Everyone I've introduced to the game left within a month. I guess you have to be a special kind of masochist to stick with it. Or just plain stubborn.

 

I can understand that, in spite of what some people think...this game requires a lot of commitment to do well.  

 

-Blu



SturmEnte #10 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 02:37

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At the bottom, heavies sink the most.  That goes for any tank relying on its armor as well.  A T67 is still sneaky and fast against tier 7s.  A KV-1's armor is not impressive against tier 7s.

Omega_Weapon #11 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 02:44

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View PostTedsc, on Sep 18 2017 - 18:53, said:

Once you get to tier 5 and 6 the newness wears off.  At that point you are grinding stock tanks with less than 100% crews.  Roughly half of your battles are bottom tier.  Wargaming says you can be effective in that KV1 against a fully upgraded T29 who may or may not have a 100% crew and a few skills/perks to boot.  

 

That game play experience is not fun.  Some people see it as the painful process to be endured to get to the tier 9 and 10 games where vehicles are much more equal.  But how many other just see it as a poorly designed game and move on to something else?

 

When I just started playing WoT, I asked a few other people about it and a common theme was that it is a game that exists for people who have played forever.  The odds heavily tilted in their favor so unless you are prepared to be the underdog for a very long time, don't bother.

 

3 tier battles is largely where that sentiment comes from IMO.

 

​With the 3/5/7 template now, the match maker is better than its ever been before. That said, it can still be improved. Maybe not +1/-1 every battle, but they need to guarantee every player gets to be top tier at least one third of the time (50% would be ideal) and not stuck as bottom tier more than one third of the time max (25% ideal). The game is supposed to be fun and being bottom tier underdog too often isn't much fun, even for the experienced players.

Edited by Omega_Weapon, Sep 19 2017 - 03:12.


Sturmgeschut #12 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 03:12

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Arty is what turns off new players.

 

Why give the game a chance if you suddenly start getting damaged from seemingly nowhere?

 

 

 

 



rokinamerica #13 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 03:26

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View PostTedsc, on Sep 18 2017 - 15:53, said:

Once you get to tier 5 and 6 the newness wears off.  At that point you are grinding stock tanks with less than 100% crews.  Roughly half of your battles are bottom tier.  Wargaming says you can be effective in that KV1 against a fully upgraded T29 who may or may not have a 100% crew and a few skills/perks to boot.  

View PostTedsc, on Sep 18 2017 - 17:11, said:

The focus is on new players not players with mostly top tier tanks adding a new line.  Free XP isn't an option for newbies who are likely grinding 5-8 lines at the same time.  

New players are not grinding 5-8 lines at tiers 5 and 6. Anyone that is at tiers 5 and 6 should know that they need to either save some credits or use some gold to move up crews as they move up tiers and tank lines. Free xp should be used for upgrades and not tank crews unless you have an abundance or the tank is elite. Use your crew from lower tiers, spend some credits to train in new tank and continue skill training. Rinse and repeat. You will get to tiers 5 and 6 with at least a couple of crew skills/perks to go against others with several skills/perks.

 

Honestly. at 20k battles you should know this. 



P_A_N_Z_E_R #14 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 03:28

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Spent many thousands of battles on the lower tiers. Had lots of fun learning the game on my own. If I had to start from the beginning, I would. It is all about fun, learning to adapt and be flexible.

the_Deadly_Bulb #15 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 03:41

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OP I don't feel that +/-2 MM is a bad thing for anyone.

What is happening is the impression that it's bad is growing, in part due to the new way MM has been making the lower tiers avoid this.

There was a time when T-III tanks saw T-V and until the introduction of the new MM all true scout LTs had +3MM for many of their games.



Ophrys12 #16 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 04:30

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I think one of the aspects of this game that will deter new players from continuing the climb up the ladder is the eventual realization that they do need to spend "some" money to avoid frustration in WoTs. Even if they are only playing one tank line (say the KV-1), by the time they reach this tier 5 heavy, if they don't buy gold to train the crew, they will be grinding this tank with a 75% crew (remember, the starting MS-1 crew was at 100% but for only 2 crew members, and it was a light tank).

 

So at this point, they face these options:

1- Buy gold and start with a 100% crew.

2- Don't buy gold and painfully grind through the KV-1 with a 75% crew that can now only face tier 4s up to 7s.

3- Stop playing the game.

 

WG will want players to go by option 1 for obvious reasons, but like the OP pointed out, new players may see the "buy gold" option simply as a permanent "pay-to-play" avenue that will turn them off. Certain players (myself included) will accept the challenge and grind through with the 75% crew with the hopes that once the KV-1 crew reaches 100%, retraining into the T-150 or KV-1S or KV-2 with credits will only bring the crew effectiveness down to 90%. And lastly, a significant portion of new players (already frustrated with playing the tier 4 russian medium T-28 facing KV-2s, Hellcats, T-67s and derping M4s) will simply quit.



I_QQ_4_U #17 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 05:17

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Every single PvP game I've every played had people saying the same sort of thing. The real problem is that most people don't like PvP, really don't like it when they don't win and will not make much of an effort to get better at it. There's nothing you can do to any PvP game to keep these kind of people playing without making the game utter garbage which makes them lose the core player base who support the game much more than the fly by night gamers who hop from one game to the other.

 

 



rokinamerica #18 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 05:24

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View PostI_QQ_4_U, on Sep 18 2017 - 20:17, said:

the fly by night gamers who hop from one game to the other.

 

 

Spoiler

 



Kerosedge #19 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 05:37

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View PostNudnick, on Sep 18 2017 - 19:12, said:

Everyone I've introduced to the game left within a month. I guess you have to be a special kind of masochist to stick with it. Or just plain stubborn.

Yep had a couple they just played a few and said nope. 



Sturmgeschut #20 Posted Sep 19 2017 - 05:58

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View PostKerosedge, on Sep 18 2017 - 20:37, said:

Yep had a couple they just played a few and said nope. 

 

I tell anyone who asks me about this game not to play it.




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