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Please post your concerns about SPG/Artillery here (Seriously)

SPG Artillery Scumbags ignore complaining trolls

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Metia #1 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 17:12

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In the interest of cleaning up the forums I thought it would be a good idea if we just posted a combined thread about the community's feelings towards SPG's here.  I specifically want the problems people have, no posts from people like me who enjoy playing the class, just the complaints.  it will be more effective to gather all of them here in one thread with many responses, as opposed to dozens of threads with 3-6 responses.  If you already have an active SPG thread, if you can edit your post to come here that would be great.  Get everything in one place, get your ducks in a row and come forth with a list of reasons that do not include getting their bottom tier open top TD 1 shot by the top tier spg on the opposing teams.  Complaints like that simply look petty, everyone can be one shot (ok well not everyone... T.O.G. I am looking at you) by a top tier tank, so make the concerns more class wide, as opposed to specific cases or games.

 

It's hard with so many threads all about the same topic, sorta... that have few if any replies for voices to be heard, so rather than having to sift through each post to find what you agree/disagree on, post here, discuss it between yourselves and come up with an *agreed upon* list of concerns.  It, in general will also make the forums easier to browse, and certainly make it easier for newer players who want to discus something about the new tank they researched, and if the line is still worthwhile (yes I am looking at you M3 Lee) or whether it may not suit their play style, even if the newer player gets further down the line.  

 

So, in summery keep this list to *concerns* as opposed to making lots of posts, post *here*.  voices of five people talking at once be a mess, voice of five people speaking in one voice is stronger.



Al_Scarface_Capone_ #2 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 17:19

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Stunning...

Fire that Wargaming developer who thought of it



nuclearguy931 #3 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 17:22

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Why do we still have the 'Intuition' perk for arty loaders?

 

This perk should be removed and the skills/perks reset for the loaders.



SuperTankDriver #4 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 17:25

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View Postnuclearguy931, on Sep 23 2017 - 16:22, said:

Why do we still have the 'Intuition' perk for arty loaders?

 

This perk should be removed and the skills/perks reset for the loaders.

 

intuition needs to be removed from the entire game. it's a useless perk.

 

most of the time I wouldn't want to risk having to go through a full reload just for a minor chance to fire the shell I want to. Atleast if I have the wrong shell loaded, I can track the guy who is attacking me.



LeaveIT2Beaver #5 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 17:27

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View PostSuperTankDriver, on Sep 23 2017 - 11:25, said:

 

intuition needs to be removed from the entire game. it's a useless perk.

.

 

I disagree. There have been times when I need to switch out rounds on the fly as the situation changed and I was glad my gunner had it .

 

Arty is not part of the meta anymore. It pays nothing, and it is just irritating. IMHO the only reason WG has not taken arty  out is that it would be hard to figure out how much to compensate each player (  read $$$$$$$$ )  


Edited by LeaveIT2Beaver, Sep 23 2017 - 17:29.


SanguTik #6 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 17:29

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SPG's do good things for competitive play in some cases I'd say. The meme responses from Wargaming and players about dynamic and preventing camping come true in 15v15 tier 10 clan wars. In the casual game modes, this is not true. Arty actually promotes camping as the most aggressive players are the ones punished by artillery. Arty tag/stat focusing remains an issue and arty can continue to bleed you of HP and keep you stunned in 90% of areas on the map restricting your play and making for a much less dynamic game. Arty players are toxic and quite often do a good job of griefing. I remember back in all chat every time an arty player shot somebody he'd spam chat saying BOOM just to trigger people. Arty TK quite often because they have no care for the team. If an enemy and friendly are side by side the arty will take the shell and kill the friendly without a care in the world. Arty players are also the most common to kill themselves by drowning or blowing themselves up showing extreme lack of sportsmanship and denying the enemy his extra credits and experience in a fit of 5 year old rage. A majority of arty players have no care for performance, they are there so that they can ruin the game for others. Remember how many people got upset when they changed arty? The griefers were upset that they couldn't one shot people anymore. All they cared about was ruining some guys game in one shell without any tactical thinking or care to win.

heyArty #7 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 17:44

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View PostSanguTik, on Sep 23 2017 - 17:29, said:

SPG's do good things for competitive play in some cases I'd say. The meme responses from Wargaming and players about dynamic and preventing camping come true in 15v15 tier 10 clan wars. In the casual game modes, this is not true. Arty actually promotes camping as the most aggressive players are the ones punished by artillery. Arty tag/stat focusing remains an issue and arty can continue to bleed you of HP and keep you stunned in 90% of areas on the map restricting your play and making for a much less dynamic game. Arty players are toxic and quite often do a good job of griefing. I remember back in all chat every time an arty player shot somebody he'd spam chat saying BOOM just to trigger people. Arty TK quite often because they have no care for the team. If an enemy and friendly are side by side the arty will take the shell and kill the friendly without a care in the world. Arty players are also the most common to kill themselves by drowning or blowing themselves up showing extreme lack of sportsmanship and denying the enemy his extra credits and experience in a fit of 5 year old rage. A majority of arty players have no care for performance, they are there so that they can ruin the game for others. Remember how many people got upset when they changed arty? The griefers were upset that they couldn't one shot people anymore. All they cared about was ruining some guys game in one shell without any tactical thinking or care to win.

 

This is (unfortunately) probably the most accurate description of a lot of players in this class. Artillery is teeming with players who are jerks, and/or just don't give a flying **** about being useful to the team or winning.

 


CapPhrases #8 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 17:56

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View PostSanguTik, on Sep 23 2017 - 11:29, said:

SPG's do good things for competitive play in some cases I'd say. The meme responses from Wargaming and players about dynamic and preventing camping come true in 15v15 tier 10 clan wars. In the casual game modes, this is not true. Arty actually promotes camping as the most aggressive players are the ones punished by artillery. Arty tag/stat focusing remains an issue and arty can continue to bleed you of HP and keep you stunned in 90% of areas on the map restricting your play and making for a much less dynamic game. Arty players are toxic and quite often do a good job of griefing. I remember back in all chat every time an arty player shot somebody he'd spam chat saying BOOM just to trigger people. Arty TK quite often because they have no care for the team. If an enemy and friendly are side by side the arty will take the shell and kill the friendly without a care in the world. Arty players are also the most common to kill themselves by drowning or blowing themselves up showing extreme lack of sportsmanship and denying the enemy his extra credits and experience in a fit of 5 year old rage. A majority of arty players have no care for performance, they are there so that they can ruin the game for others. Remember how many people got upset when they changed arty? The griefers were upset that they couldn't one shot people anymore. All they cared about was ruining some guys game in one shell without any tactical thinking or care to win.

 

I remember the "BOOM" people in all chat, bunch of toxic children.

currently arty like you said has little place to do it's "job" in pubs since there's almost never teamwork of any sort.

boils down to people don't enjoy being smacked/stunned/tracked and so on by someone who doesn't even risk being seen the whole game.

add to that the fact people just regurgitate responses like "adapt" or "don't be aggressive" which leads back to the joke of just humping rocks all game in the hope someone doesn't click on you.



txtaxman #9 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 17:59

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So sick of the complaints. WG always worrying about crowd butthurt and their microtriggers.... 


Edited by txtaxman, Sep 23 2017 - 18:01.


LemmingRush #10 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 18:02

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It shoots over cover

It splashes you behind cover

If they miss you're stunned for 15 seconds

If they focus you you're perma stunned

Many maps don't even have anything the resembles cover

You can't shoot back at it



SanguTik #11 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 18:05

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View Posttxtaxman, on Sep 23 2017 - 09:59, said:

So sick of the complaints. WG always worrying about crowd butthurt and their microtriggers.... 

 

Feedback remains important for any game to continue being successful. We're giving our feedback and because you don't like it YOU are the one being triggered. Good meme though.You probably threw a fit when arty lost AP shells.

Metia #12 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 18:10

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View PostSanguTik, on Sep 23 2017 - 18:05, said:

 

Feedback remains important for any game to continue being successful. We're giving our feedback and because you don't like it YOU are the one being triggered. Good meme though.You probably threw a fit when arty lost AP shells.

 

I agree, mostly as I made this post for people who have concerns about spgs to talk about it and specifically asked to keep "complainer" responses out of it, as all it does it degenerate the post to squabbling.  This is the chance for people to combine their grievances and as people with a shared interest  (their dislike for Arty/SPG) to find it's issues.  I kinda doubt they want to come out of this with a "mrgmrlgmrlf REMOVE ARTY~~~~~!" response.

F4U_wingman #13 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 18:18

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Why even think about it??? 

I see them in the TANK TREE so I will play what I want, when I want...

shh :bajan:



Nonamanadus #14 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 18:30

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Arty = drone strikes.....

 

Spectator Interruptus....



Jaspo #15 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 18:39

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Block Quote

View PostBANG_UR_DEAD_1, on Sep 21 2017 - 16:48, said:

Arty is the grimreaper of natural selection. the dumb die first.

 

Actually, the opposite is true and that's one of artillery's main problems...it can easily target players who are good enough to not be targeted by anything else while still contributing...thus making their skill irrelevant. This is made worse by arty that is deliberately XVM sniping the better players on the enemy team. And, there's really not a lot of options for remaining arty safe WHILE still contributing to the battle. Thus the common argument; arty causes camping.

 (this from another thread, and is simply my restatement of the gist of what the majority of unicums have been pointing out for a long time now)

 

Additionally,

-God view aim and even worse trajectory aim is incredibly OP and also rather boring to play. Also, this aiming requires very little skill, which is largely what makes it boring.

-Indirect fire is inherently unfair when compared to the mechanics of the rest of the game, which the other 4 classes must play by.

-Stop trotting out the one armed amputee argument in favor of artillery, fringe cases do NOT dictate the needs of the majority, particularly in a statted competitive multiplayer game. It would be one thing if you were providing a bot stomping single player experience for said amputee to enjoy, its quite another when you're giving the handicapped person a huge handicap in competitive play.

-This leads to an observation: many artillery players somehow fail to realize what its like on the receiving end (particularly when being focused by multiple, or in the latest update, even just a single, fast firing, arty), or are somewhat sadistically inclined and thus don't care. Aka, trolls. Don't feed trolls. Bad game design decision, to deliberately feed trolls.

-Arty players like to drown themselves, this is unsportsmanlike, and for some reason almost exclusive to arty (perhaps because they tend to be trolls?)

 


Edited by Jaspo, Sep 25 2017 - 22:03.


Genarelbetrayus #16 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 19:42

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My only concern is I can't 1 shot people and make them salty.:izmena:

BEASTY_BUCKEYE #17 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 19:44

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It would not hurt my feeling a bit if arty was removed from the game or put back the way it was. I would rather be one shot and put out of the game. Then have to die slowly being focused and stunned to death by 3 auto loading artys for 5 mins of suffering. I really don't even see artys value on the games any more other then just being an annoyance. With prem rounds being so power full and some of the tanks being so fast  it really makes arty point less. So get rid of arty or get rid of prem rounds is my view on it. I know the games are always  more fun and the general feel of the teams mode is more up beat when there is no arty. Just my two cents.

TheBaldguy #18 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 20:36

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View PostMetia, on Sep 23 2017 - 17:12, said:

I specifically want the problems people have, no posts from people like me who enjoy playing the class, just the complaints.

Well people who play the class have complaints, and some of those are actually inline with non-players' complaints.

 

Lets talk stunning and splash

The idea behind it was solid, but the implementation is severely lacking. The idea was to move arty more towards being a true force multiplier rather than an individual force. This idea is supportable. However the implementation has a few problems:

 

It encourages focusing a specific group or light tanks.

Here it has two effects that seem to be at odds, but make sense. Artillery has two ways to make credits and experience: damage and supporting damage (technically spotting damage too, but, yeah ... heheh like that happens if you aren't running Bert). Since an arty today isn't going to do much damage to anything other than a light or an open top TD, they have a new bias toward those tanks because they can do actual damage and/or get kills. This is countered in scouts by being mobile and in TDs by trying to remain invisible. On the other hand you have stunning damage.

 

It Discourages Other Support Options

To get experience or credits from stunning someone else has to shoot the tank after you stun it. This encourages looking for groups which are already being hit by allies and avoiding ones that are not. Is there a group of TDs camping a corridor but not being shot? The new mechanics disincentives hitting those TDs and especially so for watching for tracers from that spot -- countering "invisible tanks" picking your team apart. You will stun if close enough, and maybe get a hundred points of damage on a hit unless you are top tier and they are open top and bottom tier when you might get a kill. This combination leads directly to people "getting focused" by arty.

 

The other side-effect of this is that due to low damage you will more often simply do nothing or track them. Get two parties coordinating and you can generally keep someone tracked, even though you are doing minimal damage at best. That leads to extreme frustration on the part of the red player. Two or more parties coordinating rare frankly, they only seem to be coordinating or "focusing you" because they don't have anywhere else to shoot.

 

The result is that both sides find the exchange more undesirable. There are better ways to gain the desired effect than the way it is done now. Not sure if you're wanting alternatives here or just complaints so I'll hold off on those suggestions.

 

Top Down View

Next up lets look at top down view. First, lets dismiss any complaints about realism. As someone who has literally been shelled by artillery in an actual battle I'll tell you that stunning is as real as it gets. If anything it is far more powerful in real life than in game. Anyway, lets look at the valid complaint here: if you are in artillery view you can see environment destruction nobody else can. I agree with this aspect of the complaint. It doesn't make sense that in the first minute of the game I can see you running over trees and buildings on the other side. This, however, can be addressed specifically without removing the view. Since this suggestion is small I'll go ahead and make it: have it reflect visibility from tanks. If a tank has a tree in its view range and the tree falls, the arty can see it in their view, and only if this is true. This simulates it being relayed by the spotting tank. Right, now on to the next one. It does produce a problem in that counter battery is much more difficult, but there could be an exception for that.

 

Limited Firing Options

This complaint isn't limited to arty but is still a major factor in the other complaints. With small maps and limited shot opportunities, you have a pretty good idea where to aim because the map essentially forces players into that area. This in part leads to the perception of being focused. The main cause of this is small map size, corridors, and firing arc combined with low camo and speed for many arty. There are few positions the arty can have a chance at contributing to the win from, which further reduces where they can shoot, leading to a feeling of being focused by arty. This is actually made worse when there are 2-3 arties because often if nobody else is hitting them the arties split what little damage they do via the stunning mechanic. So it produced even more incentive to "focus" a group.

 

This is amplified by the corridors because it produces the same situation on both sides. The group that you target for splash is only effective if you have a group shooting at the, which means the arty on the other side is targeting your group.

 

Hang Time

Since the "physics" of the game don't reflect any semblance of reality for pretty much most of the tanks and all classes, lets ignore the general "gravity is BS"  complaint as it isn't valid within the game context. However, the long hang time has some specific consequences, some of which lead to other complaints. Most tanks can shoot and within .1-1.5 seconds the round is where it is going to go. So you do have to lead your target if they are moving - and how much is dependent on their speed and your range. Most don't have a problem with that. However, for arty you can be looking at six seconds of hang time, and a lot can happen in that hang time. Most of the friendly fire incidents I've seen have been because someone ran into the area after the shot was sent downrange. Because most people don't understand that arty marked an area, fired, then drove into it they rant about arty killing them. The recent change to a more obvious marker for allies is a good step in this direction, but people still ignore it and face hug after the shot was sent. There is not much that can be done about this mechanically save perhaps a penalty if the arty marked, fired, and then you went in. 

 

It also produced complaints by fast tanks "how did he hit me at 60kph? Impossible!" Nope, it is totally possible. It is possible in all tanks, though harder for arty because they have to anticipate 5-6 seconds rather than .5 to 1.5. I get hit at speed by arty and my first thought is "[edited]; running predictable like that got you killed". Then again, being unpredictable in your movements is a thing learned in armor training (we called it "the Sagger samba" after the soviet Sagger AT guided rocket"). Frankly, as harsh as it sounds, if you are running at 60kph and get hit by arty, either they happen to be good at predicting you based on terrain options or you are very predictable. Or they got lucky and/or you were unlucky. This is especially with the stunning mechanic biasing in favor of shooting at groups of high health targets being hit by others. You have to be a choice and easy target to justify shifting away from stunning damage on a group of heavies.

 

Combining high hang time with long aim time and long reload means an artillery player has to make every shot count as much as possible. This is exacerbated by the reward mechanic. This combination compounds the problem of limited firing opportunities and relying on stun assist damage (or track damage for lower caliber guns). I can see how WG might think it boosts team play, but everyone being essentially forced to shoot the same targets isn't teamwork. Nor is it much fun for either side.

 

You could argue that the hang time for long range is a counterweight. But it really isn't. When the reds are sitting in one spot and playing peekaboo all it does is mean that is who you repeatedly shoot at. Which brings us to the next complaint.

 

I Can't Shoot You Back

First, invisible tanks are annoying and it really doesn't matter why they are invisible. So from that perspective it isn't limited to arty, just the phrase "invisible tanks" which covers TDs, lights, and mediums with good camo. Frankly in game I hear that whine far more often than arty complaints. Some of this complaint about arty though is that they can sit back and rain down fire and vengeance at range (which many TDs can do, but let us ignore that for a moment). One option is to reduce the range and increase the arc - as is done for the Bishop and Bert SPGs. The downside to that, however, is that once seen an arty melts in seconds, and most maps don't have a lot of opportunity for the bishop, for example, to get into a decent support spot. It also requires shorter Time-To-Next-Shot. The other influence on this is the forced focus fire due to the map and other factors above. But breaking through a front brings us to the next complaint.

 

I Get Shotgunned By Arty

Well, my first thought is "tough". Frankly in the real world you get in front of a big bore barrel in a lightly armored tank at close range, you're going to get annihilated even with splash. This as an actual tactic employed in WWII. That said, the complaints here are about a lucky shot as well. It requires the arty to have a shell ready to go, being pointing at you and landing that hit via the arc. He gets, generally, one shot. The two arty I have played where this isn't the case are the Bishop and Bert. The Bishop has the armor/hp to generally take 2-3 shots from a light or on-tier medium, whereas the Bert has mobility. They both have short reloads. I don't really view this complaint as valid; it is really more accurately "I want a free kill". Sure, you can say the arty had the ability to shot you at range, but clearly he didn't have the opportunity, luck, or skill needed to do so. Plus you can say the same thing about most TDs.

 

Fundamentally I think most valid complaints about arty that are specific to arty boil down to "the maps suck". Which is something I think every class can complain about.

 



TheBaldguy #19 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 21:15

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View PostJaspo, on Sep 23 2017 - 18:39, said:

-This leads to an observation: many artillery players somehow fail to realize what its like on the receiving end (particularly when being focused by multiple, or in the latest update, even just a single, fast firing, arty),

 

When I get hit by arty I generally blame myself. However, the one time I do complain (in my head) about getting artied is the lef hitting me repeatedly over a matter of seconds. IMO that thing fires way too fast for arty.

 

Block Quote

-Arty players like to drown themselves, this is unsportsmanlike, and for some reason almost exclusive to arty (perhaps because they tend to be trolls?)

 

Lets be honest, it isn't just arty that does this. I've actually seen more non-arty than arty do it, and I've seen them say they are doing it. In the last two weeks I've seen it most commonly in KV1 and KV4 players. The map opens and it is "*** this team/map" followed by them driving straight into the water and drowning in the first minute of the game. So it is far from anything near exclusive to arty. I've also been in many a game where the dead non-arty players are literally begging or demanding that the remaining player(s) to kill themselves so they can get to the next game, and usually it is arty they are begging. What I have seen more often by arty than drowning is going up to a building and firing to shoot oneself. I didn't even know that was thing until I saw non-arty players requesting it. Personally I refuse to give up and will fight till the last hit point regardless of what I am in or how many reds are bearing down on me. That said, the non-arty who drown themselves at the beginning are more of a cancer on the game than the arty who drowns himself at the end.

 

And to be honest we would also have to bring up the non-arty unsportsmanlike players who push others into enemy fire, shoot them because "you're in MY SPOT", "you bumped into me, RAWR time to die!", "you're arty it is ok to shoot you", "camper!", and so on. They vastly outnumber suicidal artillery. Saying arty is, as a class, almost exclusively unsportsmanlike is not accurate in the least. I see far more trolls in mediums than any other class - mostly because they have more in-game capability to do so and to do it without triggering the blue paintball. Secondarily I see lights and heavies about evenly being unsportsmanlike. Lights tend to permatrack you or get in your face, heavies push you off cliffs or into the open. Indeed, this type of behavior is common enough it gets its own section on Claus's channel. It is rarely, if ever, an arty doing this kind of stuff. A test I think it disingenuous to say arty is a troll class because some of them drown themselves, when this other behavior happens far more often and has far more deleterious effects on gameplay than the occasional end-the-game-by-drowning arty.

 

 


Edited by TheBaldguy, Sep 23 2017 - 21:16.


n4cer67 #20 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 06:30

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Spg's are awesome, only need to have their full damage brought back. Also the SU-26 needs it's 122mm back.

 







Also tagged with SPG, Artillery, Scumbags, ignore, complaining, trolls

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