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Hate Arty? Read this, please.


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zarg12 #41 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 18:14

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View PostSgt__Guffy, on Sep 25 2017 - 12:02, said:

 

You are without doubt the most arrogant player I have come across on this forum.  Your personal attacks and dismissive attitude towards anyone who disagrees with you is objectionable and ruins any credibility to your arguments. You do indeed repeat what many other players have stated to the point that you lack originality. Come up with something you thought up, something credible instead of what you think other players want to read. 

 

Both Bavor your yourself do not get it. The fact you claim artillery is a broken mechanic is irrelevant and redundant. It is pointless claiming it validates your assertion that artillery has no place in the game. It is there. It is there to be played.  By all means protest all you like, but it will still  be there. The recent changes made to artillery did nothing to change your opinion, which goes to prove what I have thought all along that any change to artillery is pointless and more likely to upset more players that it appeases.

 

I do not particularly want to get into this debate with you, because what you have stated has been stated by others, many times and you offer nothing new at all. I have always stated I cannot care less whether artillery is in the game or not, but whilst it is, I will play it.

 

It is a simple as that.

 

 

Guffy.

 

 

And what is it that you bring that is hot and fresh? Nothing.

What you're saying boils down to "I think arty is balanced so you should too", I am raising points as to why artillery is broken that I have observed over the past 6 years and you want to dismiss it as "repeating others". What a genius hypocrite.

Yet you still haven't proven me wrong about any of my points, I'm still waiting for you to prove to me with solid facts how what I am concerned about what makes artillery broken (Note, broken does not directly mean overpowered) is wrong yet you still dance around the subject.

To your point about credibility, this means nothing to me. If you want to say you have more experience in the game than me then go ahead and make a fool of yourself, we both know that's wrong.
I know more about the game than you do in every aspect, I can point out when something is broken and should be fixed and I can bring solutions to it.

Sgt__Guffy #42 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 18:26

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View PostThornir, on Sep 25 2017 - 11:12, said:

I really don't think arty is a "broken" class. It is unique, certainly. It can do things other classes can't. 

 

 To be "broken", it needs to be not working as intended. To say it isn't, you need to know what WG intends. I would submit that their intentions have evolved over time, but fairly, the only evidence we have is its continued presence in the game.

 

let us assume for a moment that every single arty player that frequents the forums was persuaded that arty was bad, and stopped playing it. How many is that? Dozens? Hundreds?

 

THOUSANDS of people, with and without arty in their garages, play this game daily,  blissfully unaware of the rage of the "vocal minority" here in the forums. 

 

I am not saying people that don't like arty don't have a case - though I personally disagree with the arguments presented as they tend to ignore the possibility of foreseen and unforeseen consequences for players and the game itself, especially in the Americas. I am saying that lashing your fellow players for making legitimate game play choices and/or not doing anything of significance to foster change is an unsuccessful strategy. 

 

The many that that are vocally opposed to arty that post in here, despite their passion and willingness to bully, blame and shame, won't ever do more than they are doing now. Which is essentially nothing.

 

it makes me wonder how big a deal it really is to them, and how many just love to argue for the sake of it.

 

There is an element of arguing for the sake of it.There is a bullying faction on the EU forum too.  I have had many similar debates on the EU forum, the arty hater faction is strong there and make some good points. But it gets repetitive, to the point the arguments cease to have credibility in the eyes of the reader. 

 

Personally I think the relationship between artillery and other vehicles is the Elephant and Mouse scenario. However good, however dominant a player is in WOT, playing in the ultimate death incarnate, there is something that will negate its total dominance of the game, namely artillery. I think this is the big bone of contention and why players who hate artillery think it unfair.

 

However, the number one player in WOT has not only the challenge of the players seeking to knock them off their pedestal, but the fact that some tomato in a vehicle at the rear of the battlefield can scupper their best laid plans. I find a poetic irony in that. ;)

 



Sgt__Guffy #43 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 18:35

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View Postzarg12, on Sep 25 2017 - 11:14, said:

 

And what is it that you bring that is hot and fresh? Nothing.

What you're saying boils down to "I think arty is balanced so you should too", I am raising points as to why artillery is broken that I have observed over the past 6 years and you want to dismiss it as "repeating others". What a genius hypocrite.

Yet you still haven't proven me wrong about any of my points, I'm still waiting for you to prove to me with solid facts how what I am concerned about what makes artillery broken (Note, broken does not directly mean overpowered) is wrong yet you still dance around the subject.

To your point about credibility, this means nothing to me. If you want to say you have more experience in the game than me then go ahead and make a fool of yourself, we both know that's wrong.
I know more about the game than you do in every aspect, I can point out when something is broken and should be fixed and I can bring solutions to it.

 

I do not need to state anything further because you have proven my points for me, particularly about your arrogance and that fact you still do not understand what I have written.



zarg12 #44 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 18:37

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View PostSgt__Guffy, on Sep 25 2017 - 12:35, said:

 

I do not need to state anything further because you have proven my points for me, particularly about your arrogance and that fact you still do not understand what I have written.

 

"I do not have any arguments so I will find a way to weasel my way out of this"

Sgt__Guffy #45 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 18:54

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View Postzarg12, on Sep 25 2017 - 11:37, said:

 

"I do not have any arguments so I will find a way to weasel my way out of this"

 

Look, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. Go look up irrelevant and redundant in the dictionary, then you might just grasp the point I was trying to make. Now if you can't, then walk away and let it lie. I cannot explain further the points I have made which are clear for everyone, including you, to read. The fact you just don't get it is not my fault!

zarg12 #46 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 19:01

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View PostSgt__Guffy, on Sep 25 2017 - 12:54, said:

 

Look, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. Go look up irrelevant and redundant in the dictionary, then you might just grasp the point I was trying to make. Now if you can't, then walk away and let it lie. I cannot explain further the points I have made which are clear for everyone, including you, to read. The fact you just don't get it is not my fault!

 

You have no "points".

Explain to me how shooting over obstacles with a top down view from the edge of the map at base with no way to know you're being aimed at or fired at with no way to fire back or defend yourself from it with a huge splash radius + 15 seconds stun + crew damage + module damage + minimum 300 damage (With spall liner) with a reload of 30 seconds and no risk is not broken?

MWO has a system similar to artillery, however you do not have a top down view and the person being fired at knows something is incoming, giving time to react. That is what balance is.

inb4 this is technology so of course they can detect missiles, to which I say sixth sense.



So again, prove me wrong.

Anublister #47 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 19:12

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Adding to OP's message, please use your newly discovered talent to influence people who make a huge difference in our country. Write, call or email your congressmen. There is a real possibility of a Nuclear War starting soon. A genie that might not be put back in the bottle and an existential threat to every living person on this planet. There are a number of other things affecting your fellow citizens as well. Speak up or you will be ignored, put in a box, thought of only as a commodity, something that has money to be gotten from. Internet neutrality, clean energy, clean air/water, jobs, education, civil rights, freedom of expression and police seizure of your property based only on suspicion are just a few things to concern yourself with alongside a better gaming experience. 

 

Please get involved and make your voices heard. I assume you are one of the sentient beings on this planet. You can make a difference. 



Kenshin2kx #48 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 19:18

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View PostSgt__Guffy, on Sep 24 2017 - 11:25, said:

 

 

There is an element of manipulation, in that those who want artillery removed from the game and succeeded in doing so, would want something else changing, or removing, as soon as WG acceded to their demands  I do not doubt for a minute that it would stop with artillery.

 

 

 

...  there is the fundamental manipulation, in all manifest desire ... If you truly wish to be fair, remove the global root - desire - otherwise observation goes both ways - maintain status quo ... or change.  I personally contend that we need to acknowledge both perspectives continuously, dismiss either one completely and you you have true imbalance.

zarg12 #49 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 19:24

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Sep 25 2017 - 13:18, said:

 

...  there is the fundamental manipulation, in all manifest desire ... If you truly wish to be fair, remove the global root - desire - otherwise observation goes both ways - maintain status quo ... or change.  I personally contend that we need to acknowledge both perspectives continuously, dismiss either one completely and you you have true imbalance.

 

naw m8 it's much more easier for him to dismiss what others have to say because they have the same observations as others, obviously this means we're all stupid and we don't know what we're talking about. Only he knows. Who needs facts and arguments when you can just dismiss others?

Doc_Ebs #50 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 19:45

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View Postdaangerous, on Sep 24 2017 - 21:00, said:

 

I don't think you can compare boardgames with arty in world of tanks. The horse in chess can be avoided by smart thinking and monopoly is just a luck game. Arty players can focus you all game and when you try to peek a corner to shoot you get a submarine on your roof. If an arty player really wants you he can not be outsmarted. 

I hope my point is made clearly, English is not my first language.

Arty can be out smarter. If you stay covered up and he is dumb enough to sit there and take his gun out of the fight watching your cover, then you have done it! He was not smart enough to traverse and work on other targets. Also you can wait until spotting has stopped. Arty rarely hits what it can't see.



sparango #51 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 19:56

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I do love killing me some arty though

Bavor #52 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 21:19

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View PostSgt__Guffy, on Sep 25 2017 - 11:44, said:

 

An awful lot of assumptions in your diatribe. I think we all know what assumption is the mother of.

 

As expected you have nothing intelligent, useful, or insightful to add to this thread.  Why bother replying other than to clutter up the thread?  Your statements were proven to be useless and/or false and you continue to reply.  You must be one of those people who enjoys hearing himself talk.

Sgt__Guffy #53 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 21:26

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Sep 25 2017 - 12:18, said:

 

...  there is the fundamental manipulation, in all manifest desire ... If you truly wish to be fair, remove the global root - desire - otherwise observation goes both ways - maintain status quo ... or change.  I personally contend that we need to acknowledge both perspectives continuously, dismiss either one completely and you you have true imbalance.

 

Well put, I would not disagree with you, because there is nothing to disagree with. 

 

If you have a debating chamber where both sides of the chamber are having a discussion in normal voices then there is a balanced debate. If however, one side of the chamber speaks in a normal voice and the other side is shouting then that is manipulation which intends to cause imbalance. By default, the ones that shout lose the debate, because if their views were valid they would not need to shout.

In order to debate, you need to have the same subject to discuss. If one side puts across a point of view, but the other side changes the nature of the discussion to put across their point of view, than perspective is distorted to the point there is nothing gained in continuing the discussion.

 



cnumartyr #54 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 21:29

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Actually it isn't a bad balance idea to just add a skill called "Incoming!" to Commanders.  Will tell them if an Arty shell has been fired at them.

 

Edit:  Then increase shell travel time.  If the argument is somehow "Arty prevents camping" then make it harder to hit moving vehicles.


Edited by cnumartyr, Sep 25 2017 - 21:30.


Kenshin2kx #55 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 21:50

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View Postcnumartyr, on Sep 25 2017 - 10:29, said:

Actually it isn't a bad balance idea to just add a skill called "Incoming!" to Commanders.  Will tell them if an Arty shell has been fired at them.

 

Edit:  Then increase shell travel time.  If the argument is somehow "Arty prevents camping" then make it harder to hit moving vehicles.

 

See that's the beauty and consistency of RL artillery ... it goes without saying that those on the receiving end (in all conflicts) ... hate arty, or at the very least are wary its potential.  Yet, for all that indirect power, the shells were fired and arranged into a pattern or matrix in order to realistically cover an area for targeting purposes.  So, in this case, while you didn't like arty, it literally was not AIMED AT YOU in particular.  WoT sees it different ... or rather arty in WoT sees differently ... an effectively placed spotter could literally allow a particular tank to be followed if so desired ... to repeat, a particular tank.  

 

So, if WG wanted to prevent camping, while holding truer to the nature of artillery, then it would introduce an evolutionary change to arty targeting mechanics.  Simply put, allow the in game arty to 'force multiply' it's shot (to be targeted and to land in a calculated pattern) as traditional arty do or have an off map battery to do the same.  If this is done, not only would could you do away with things like super gravity (off map battery), it should make arty more authentic ... and also better fulfill its primary role to prevent camping by the use of the tried and true area denial approach to artillery bombardment ... think about it, you could get tanks moving, while not blatantly persecuting individuals by means of top down spotting and targeting by spotter proxy.   In the real world, infantry and the like resigned themselves to the randomized chance of getting hit or damaged by arty (which is to be expected) ... unlike WoT which, one can argue, you could be in a tank and literally followed by an arty or more than one arty for the duration of your survival ... with the express and undeniable intent of getting you or your tank by conscious aiming and firing be it a long string of stuns, or even cumulative damage for a kill.  Now add the some benefit for arty ... given that the targeting is not vision based, give back shell lethality AND discretional TD functionality per ability of SPG in question.


Edited by Kenshin2kx, Sep 25 2017 - 21:57.


BillT #56 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 22:14

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View PostBavor, on Sep 25 2017 - 01:16, said:

The simple fact is 90-95% of arty players in pub battles have no clue what to do to help their team.  

 

You label me as an arty hater.  I'm a broken game mechanic hater.  I hate broken game mechanics in the games I play.  

 

Making up ridiculous statistics doesn't impress me.   Besides, if 90-95% of arty players are that bad, why complain about the mechanism?  90-95% of the the time, you say, it's not helping the team win.  So it's basically an irrelevant nuisance.  That's not "broken", that's "underpowered."

 

And to corroborate that, your stats show the same thing as mine -- the same thing I always see, in fact.  Your Win Rate in SPGs is the worst of all your classes.  And since you're clearly one of the 5-10% of people who knows how to help their team with arty, your own data shows that it's harder to affect the outcome of a battle in SPGs than it is in any other class.  Far from being too powerful, arty  is too weak.  That's what's broken.

 

So yes, let's get rid of stun, which only helps your teammates, and return arty to its former ability to do massive damage in one-shot tanks, which helps your team even more.  We probably need to make it stronger yet, but this would be a good first step.

 



BillT #57 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 22:20

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View Postzarg12, on Sep 25 2017 - 01:27, said:

By the way you still haven't proven me wrong, artillery still does fire from base with impunity [edited]ting on heavies all day trying to move the game forward while artillery promotes camping and they DO kill themselves before someone is able to, don't even try talking out of your [edited]on that one. A fairly large portion of arty drivers do it.
 

 

You're pretty good at making up a claim out of thin air and then demanding someone disprove it.  Prove that "a fairly large portion of arty drivers" suicide instead of letting the enemy kill them.


Start be defining "fairly large".  In my experience, not even one arty in a hundred dies by suicide. Thinking back over several recent weeks, I can't remember a single case, so even 1% is probably an overestimate.  



BillT #58 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 22:23

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View PostGenada, on Sep 25 2017 - 06:05, said:

The part that amazes me about this entire debate is that Wargaming has to know that arty has caused them more loss of players then it has brought in. 

 

 

They would have to know it, yes -- if it were true.



SteelRonin #59 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 22:35

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OP, How many multiplayer games have you played?........I am sure you are not a gamer and you are some kind of out of service soldier or retired veteran that plays World of Tanks because........tanks......Why am I sure?, because you don't see how arty is a broken mechanism, clearly you don't have experience in video games and their balance.

 

I don't have any military training, I play a lot of video games from Pokemon to World of Tanks......I play competitive in a lot of multiplayer games....and the first thing you want is to have balance in the mechanisms of the games to prove yourself that your skill is what you need to climb and to improve. And here, in World of Tanks, even the skillest player can't deal with a guy in the other corner of the map that is trying to kill him.........that is a broken mechanism, and therefore, it breaks the balance, and the "skill" factor presented in both players is not valid.

 

Imagine the Roman Colisseum, put 26 soldiers with swords and axes in the middle to fight, 13 vs 13, and put 4 archers in the gallery. While the 26 soldiers fight each others, the 4 archers start to shoot arrows and to kill the soldiers inside.....do you believe that is balance?, do you believe that is fair?.....because that is World of Tanks with arty....


Edited by SteelRonin, Sep 25 2017 - 22:38.


BANG_UR_DEAD_1 #60 Posted Sep 25 2017 - 22:38

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OP I like how you stated your case and agree with you somewhat. The problem we have in todays society is simple. We give participation trophys out to everyone in the guise of no ones feelings gets hurt. To say to someone you suck and are a [edited]is hate speech now days. our p.c. culture has turned most of the male specious into hairless girl looking boys, battles are fought by men and women who know,and understand that not every one is coming home.

 

What we have in this game is a minority of manginas wineing about a part of the game they cant control or see. Since they refuse to change their game play they get on this forum and wine,complain until its really old. This game is suppose to mimic real armor in combat to the best of its ability. I have seen entire tank platoons taken out by one battery of M-109's

If WOT gives into this pinkish group the game will never be the same again,

 

Ask your self whats next?? no apcr only in Premies? or  a warning before the enemy fires on you??

 

 






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