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Free to Play. Pay to Win


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dunniteowl #21 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 02:36

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I was going to deal with you piece by piece and a mis-key ate everything.  I can't redo all that so I'll be brief instead.  Count yourself lucky.

 

No.  I have not noticed it requires money to get better.  As I have progressed I have trained.  We all have to train hundreds of hours.  A Premium Account, Premium Tank or Gold Rounds will not change that.  The only thing all that does is speed up the grinding process.

 

I haven't spent a penny on this game.  Others that do and who have tens of thousands more matches than I, have Premium Time, Tanks and spam Gold Rounds like it's candy korn (sorry, couldn't help a Hallowe'en reference) and are so bad at this game that even you could beat them at your skill level and newness.


 

Money doesn't make a seminal difference.  Oh, sure it buys a bit of an advantage, but no advantage can be so powerful in such a mix that skill has no place.  Skill means a player WILL hand you your backside with a stock tank and a 75% crew (only complete noobs and people who can't logic rationally will start with a 50% crew unless it's on purpose to handicap themselves) even if you do have a two or three skill crew.  Your crew and tank research only make the tank respond better.  It will not allow you to be smarter, a better aim or to know what's going on across the map -- that has to come from you, regardless how much you may or may not pay for the privilege of playing.

 

Until you come to understand that your premise is nothing more than an sneaky psychological 'trick' to allow you to not have to put out more effort for gain, you will continue to operate at the "mercy" of your perceptions that you can't make a difference without paying.  As long as you hold that view, it just won't change for you.  That's your responsibility.

 


 

I make a difference in my matches.  Not a lot, though enough.  You might even say my difference is "marginal."

 

You know how much time passes between 1st place and 3rd place in a footrace?  It's in milliseconds.  Hundredths of a second.  That marginal difference is the difference between winning more than you lose and it's only a few milliseconds here and there in your tank's responsiveness.  More importantly, the minimap is your key to success.  Awareness of what's going on around you in a match is more valuable than Premium Time, a Top Gun badge or Gold Rounds.  When you know what's going on as much as you can, you are in a position to take that information and use it to your team's (and your) advantage.

 

You can't use a credit card or a debit account to get that level of awareness.


 

In short, you must come to understand that your entire premise is flawed; being based on your emotional feels about your chances than from anything you can honestly call a fact.  And as long as that remains your position, you will not improve well enough to come to believe that you are currently mistaken in your notions.

 

So I hope that this message provides you the incentive to stop making excuses for the game "beating" you.  You can still take out a more skilled player -- it happens all the time.  I derped a League Player who rage posted me after the match.  I love that kind of saltiness!

 

Was I a better player?  Not by his judgment, but he didn't get the kill, I did.  If I were to check, I'd bet he was a much better player than I.  Even good players make mistakes, get overconfident or underestimate their opponents.


 

In summation, hang in there and stop making excuses (even though you don't think you are -- you are, this OP is an excuse post) for why you cannot overcome the same challenges ALL OF US have to deal with EQUALLY on the field.  This includes players who will AFK, drown, hide in the back the entire match or piss and moan while madly pinging the map with useless information that no-one else can benefit from while they are distracting useful players.  Yeah, that takes hundreds of hours of training not to want to reach down the line and throttle someone, believe me.

 

We all have to deal with it and you will, too.  You can pay or not, but paying will only speed your way to failing higher up in tiers than if you had to do it like me.  And, if you do carry on in that vein, I will still play against you as if you were the best player until you show me otherwise.  It's the only way I play.

 

I recommend you do the same.


GL, HF & HSYBF

[ask anyone, for me this is brief!]
 


 



OldFrog75 #22 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 04:28

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When I first started someone posted to me, "You can invest your time or invest your money - the choice is yours..."

 

Crew skills are important and money helps acquire them faster - Free XP Conversion, Premium Tanks, Premium Days.  I hate grinding so I'll use whatever alternatives WG provides.    :playing:


Edited by OldFrog75, Oct 08 2017 - 07:59.


155mm_Royalty #23 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 05:12

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View Postg4143, on Oct 07 2017 - 15:05, said:

 

Your example doesn't address the point. Would Barry Bonds hit more home runs with a professional baseball bat or a whiffle bat? This addresses the point.

Your not addressing that this is a team game. 

Also why haven't we seen a spike in winrates from bad players driving so called 'pay2win' premiums?

 

If you lack the skill to implement the tool you remain bad no matter how much armor is slapped on your tank.



Nunya_000 #24 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 05:17

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View Post8bit_Gamer, on Oct 07 2017 - 14:18, said:

#1: Premium Tanks are better than their Standard Tech tree piers. 

Yes, many of them are. At least for the average player. Some examples are Defender, Lorraine 40t, Patriot, AMX M4 mle. 49 Liberté and Skorpion G. These tanks may not be better than ALL of their Standard TechTree piers but better than most.

The situation, generally, also dictates the performance of your tank obviously but put in the same situation with two equally skilled players these Premium Tanks will perform better.Clearly the tank you choose will not change a players decision making or his map/situational awareness...it simply allows him/her to perform better in the situations they put themselves in.

*This can be confirmed through VBAddict.

 

#2: Premium Ammo, load the skill!

Loading Premium Ammo does not make you a better player. But it WILL improve your performance. Premium ammo has a higher penetration value which, in general depending on ammo type and opponent, will cause less bounces and more.....yup, damaging hits. Damaging hit = experience, kills and a better chance of winning the game. You can buy these rounds with silver which you can buy with real life currency. Not rocket science people...

 

#3 Premium Accounts and Premium Tanks only helps to speed up your grind.

Your Crew Skill % matters. Any F2P player who has had to grind a crew to %100 knows this. As does anyone who uses silver or gold to speed this process up.

Crew Skills matter. Take a 5 skill crew out on any tank. Then swap that crew out for a 0 skill crew and you will notice the difference.

Many stock tanks are terrible and only become viable/competitive after researching the top gun or turret or both. Many players, mostly experienced players with at least 10k battles will Free Exp (which cam be converted with Gold you bought with real life currency) through stock tank grinds for this exact reason.

 

All of the above are clear examples of Pay2Win elements. In many other competitive online titles even cosmetic micro transactions are cause for an uproar if the price is to high or the grind to get them through gameplay is to great. In the WoT community we are suffering from 'head in the sand' syndrome. Most refuse to acknowledge these observations.

 

I am in know way condoning nor condemning WG's business model. I myself have taken advantage of all the offerings WG gives me including Premium Account and Premium Tanks. I am only trying to bring to light what I feel to be painfully obvious. Any player if given the above mentioned advantages will perform better, advance quicker and in general have a more pleasant gaming experience.

 

I play WoT to win...and I pay to do it!

 

 

Well said, but I think premium rounds will improve production, not performance.   



the_Deadly_Bulb #25 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 05:38

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View PostVooDooKobra, on Oct 07 2017 - 16:49, said:

 

More accurately i am saying that a good tank is not going to make a bad player a good one.  While tanks like the defender and the liberte on the premium side may be kinder to a bad player when they make mistakes they will still have the same flaws in their playstyle which will not help them in other vehicles.   Good players know how to use their tanks strengths and minimize their weaknesses.   you made the statement that buying a premium instantly makes you a better tanker and that is not true. 

 

you could probably have given Barry Bonds a wiffle bat and he probably would have more home runs than an average player with a high end bat

 

View Postg4143, on Oct 07 2017 - 17:05, said:

 

Your example doesn't address the point. Would Barry Bonds hit more home runs with a professional baseball bat or a whiffle bat? This addresses the point.

 

 

VooDooKobra addresses the point succinctly.

I believe it would be more accurate however to make the comparison where the new player who trots off to the Premium Shop and buys a T-VIII Premium tank is a deaf and blind kid with the Professional bat and Barry Bonds has a wiffle bat. Sure Bonds may not be able to hit it out of the park with a wiffle, but at least you can be sure he would hit it, not so the deaf and blind kid.

This is more like the end result of a trip to the T-VIII section of the Premium Shop by a new player. Its a quick ticket (albeit an expensive one) to Loserville, usually resulting in coming to these forums shortly after to make anther derivative of  "WoT is a Pay to Win Rip-Off!".


 

T-VIII Premiums are not the new players friend. Never have been.

They have made a lot of money for WG, no doubt.



Markd73 #26 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 06:35

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View PostBavor, on Oct 07 2017 - 21:31, said:

DId you ever notice that the players who fail to be bothered to learn the basics of this game call the game pay to win and say that skill doesn't matter?  Especially the ones who average 1 shot of damage per battle in their tier 6, tier 7, and tier 8 tanks?

This 



g4143 #27 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 09:52

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View PostBavor, on Oct 07 2017 - 22:31, said:

DId you ever notice that the players who fail to be bothered to learn the basics of this game call the game pay to win and say that skill doesn't matter?  Especially the ones who average 1 shot of damage per battle in their tier 6, tier 7, and tier 8 tanks?

 

But its also the acclaimed players who state that the tank matters and it matters a lot. How do you explain away that obvious fact?

 

You also have to admit to the 'obvious fact' that the tier system of tanks admits there is a hierarchy of tanks and you play differently depending on the matchmaker's team choices.

 

You also have to admit the 'official docs claim' that certain features and tanks are to be ground(grind) through. Now why would the docs make such claims?


Edited by g4143, Oct 08 2017 - 10:39.


Firemoth #28 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 12:08

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i do bad in good tanks and good in bad tanks.

dunniteowl #29 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 15:14

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View Postg4143, on Oct 08 2017 - 09:52, said:

 

But its also the acclaimed players who state that the tank matters and it matters a lot. How do you explain away that obvious fact?

 

You also have to admit to the 'obvious fact' that the tier system of tanks admits there is a hierarchy of tanks and you play differently depending on the matchmaker's team choices.

 

You also have to admit the 'official docs claim' that certain features and tanks are to be ground(grind) through. Now why would the docs make such claims?

 

You, sir, are being purposely DENSE.

 

Can you not make a simple equation of equality?


 

I'll make it simple.  You in a stock tank.  Me in a stock tank.  You with a 100% Crew and me with a 50% Crew.  I will THRASH YOU left and right, leaving your head hanging on like a ragdoll's that has most its stitches gone nearly EVERY SINGLE TIME.  Why?  Because I (me, the person at the keyboard) know more about what I'm doing than you do.  Period.  I could take you in a tier lower unit pretty much most of the time.


 

Why?  Is it the tank is better, even a tier lower?  Why?  Is it that I have some secret paid for advantage you do not?  Why?  Is it because I can somehow overcome the disadvantage you keep laying claim to with regard to skill?


 

For the answer, read the first paragraph again.  I know more about this game than you do.  It's not hundreds of hours grinding a tank to make it better.  It's hundreds of hours of grinding 27 tanks that make ME a better player.  You cannot suddenly, magically 'get gud.'  Actually, it's 27 tanks I now have and another 45 or so I went through to get to those.  That's WHY I'm better at this game than you are -- actual experience playing.  That's all there is to it.


 

Now, maybe I am Naturally a Better Player than you, I don't know.  There are folks out there with innate sense of timing and skill that literally makes them a unicum out of the gate.  That's really very rare in any game.  Most of what you will find are dedicated gamers who play consistently and regularly that keep their skills sharp and honed for play.  There are plenty of "play for fun" folks out there with stats similar to yours, only with 40K or more matches.


 

There are folks too old to be competitive, perhaps I fall into that category at 57 years of age.  Even so, however, no amount of explication on my part or excusing on your part is going to change our physical conditions.  That said, I was at one time a 48.23% player who thought very much like you did at the start.  I didn't even know I had stats until about 4K matches.  I didn't find the forums until 6700 matches.  I didn't start purposely playing better until then.


 

Now I am a pretty steady 54% player on  most days when I can play.  This is with my age, a low end laptop that plays on lowest possible settings, a wireless internet service that has problems if the weather is bad, the trees have gotten too tall (my antenna reaches out 7.2 miles in the country to a tower before a wire carries my signal) or if a bird farts while flying by.  I work a very physically demanding job that hurts my hands, shoulders, thighs and back.


 

And yet, somehow, I am doing pretty darn okay.


 

You can, too.  Just quit complaining about the pay 2 win and get it in your head that the way to get better at this game is not money.  It's time.  You can, as OldFrog75 told you he was told, "invest your time or invest your money."  The truth is, though, that you're going to have to invest both.  If you wish to invest less time, then you will have to either get really good really fast -- or part with some Simoleans (that's cash for you non-sims knowing folks) and reduce that time factor with currency.


 

No matter what, though, the time you invest in the game is NOT to improve your tanks.  It's to improve YOUR skill.  The position of the Crew has one more than what any tank holds -- the seat in front of the keyboard has one more crew member -- YOU.  No matter how you perceive this game, you are always going to be in the driver's seat.  Why not invest all that time and/or money in YOU and learn the game instead of complaining about it?  Or leave.


 

In the interests of you staying, because I appreciate ALL of my Fellow Gamers (which is why I take this time to remonstrate with you and wake your butt up about your false notions -- I didn't say I'd be "gentle"  ) and hope that they can enjoy the game, increase their skill at playing it -- and maybe take some game related habits out into the real world and pay more attention on purpose to what's going on around you.  I want you to be having fun and you cannot have that much fun if you are only coming here to complain.


 

In that light, I offer you this:

Crew -- Global Wiki

Battle Mechanics -- Global Wiki

Zeven's Replay Reviews


 

These are the only three things I really paid attention to when I decided to play better.  You can't understand the game if you don't understand the mechanics of how the game works.  You cannot get better at the game in a vacuum of knowledge isolated in ignorance.  These things WILL help you if you use them and take the time to pay attention.


 

You can play any tank you want.  You can have the baddest tank out there and until you know what you're doing, you're going to get repeatedly smoked until you decide your brain CAN hold more knowledge or you quit.


 

The choice is yours.  You take a chance either way.


 

GL, HF & HSYBF



GeorgePreddy #30 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 15:31

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Good job explaining, Owl... but I believe there is far too much logic and truth in your post for some folks to truly understand and accept.

 

Unfortunately.

 

(and by the way, I'm 67, so there is hope to keep playing well even until 80-ish, I believe)



lordpelvis #31 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 17:01

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Op, go out a buy yourself a really nice tier 8 premium tank, premium time , and some gold rounds.

In the morning come back and tell us how good you did.

Do you want me to answer that question right now?



_Tsavo #32 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 17:16

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Okay, let's see.

 

The first skill in a crew doesn't take long.  And 100% base training also doesn't take long.  Generally, for the more skilled players, about 10-15 games to take a 75% crew to 100% .  To complete the first skill it takes less than 50 games.  These numbers go up a bit the worse a player gets, since their exp income will be markedly less.

 

So getting a 100% crew isn't much of a time sink.  A 75% isn't cost prohibitive either.  Using a 50% is going into battle with your arms removed.

 

Modules to unlock?  Here I do spend gold to unlock modules, but generally grind the next tank out.  

 

There are some lines I'm playing that I don't feel are worth spending cash on, so they are getting a stock grind.  It's unpleasant for a few games, but not so bad that it can't be overcome.  Most takes have a module or two available already from the grind, or you'll have enough free exo just sitting to unlock a key component.  

 

Equipment, however, IS an expensive buy for new/bad players.  Since they both tend to lack credits.  Though it has been a loooong time since I've had a lack of credits to buy equipment with.  



Peak_Bagger #33 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 17:19

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View Postlordpelvis, on Oct 08 2017 - 17:01, said:

Op, go out a buy yourself a really nice tier 8 premium tank, premium time , and some gold rounds.

In the morning come back and tell us how good you did.

Do you want me to answer that question right now?

 

Epic response and exactly on the mark. Unfortunately, the OP is simply trying to rationalize why he's so terrible at the game rather than understand and learn from anyone. The other thread where he simply reverted to personal insults when provided with good suggestions is evidence of that.

VooDooKobra #34 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 18:01

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View Post_Tsavo, on Oct 08 2017 - 09:16, said:

Okay, let's see.

 

The first skill in a crew doesn't take long.  And 100% base training also doesn't take long.  Generally, for the more skilled players, about 10-15 games to take a 75% crew to 100% .  To complete the first skill it takes less than 50 games.  These numbers go up a bit the worse a player gets, since their exp income will be markedly less.

 

So getting a 100% crew isn't much of a time sink.  A 75% isn't cost prohibitive either.  Using a 50% is going into battle with your arms removed.

 

Modules to unlock?  Here I do spend gold to unlock modules, but generally grind the next tank out.  

 

There are some lines I'm playing that I don't feel are worth spending cash on, so they are getting a stock grind.  It's unpleasant for a few games, but not so bad that it can't be overcome.  Most takes have a module or two available already from the grind, or you'll have enough free exo just sitting to unlock a key component.  

 

Equipment, however, IS an expensive buy for new/bad players.  Since they both tend to lack credits.  Though it has been a loooong time since I've had a lack of credits to buy equipment with.  

 

and never forget to activate those personal reserves

_Tsavo #35 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 18:02

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View PostVooDooKobra, on Oct 08 2017 - 12:01, said:

 

and never forget to activate those personal reserves

 

I always do.  :C

 

 



OddballCdr #36 Posted Oct 08 2017 - 18:22

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View Postg4143, on Oct 07 2017 - 21:17, said:

Does anyone else notice that this game, as you progress through the tiers, becomes more and more about pay and less and less about skill?

 

You hear the wot experts claim that its skill that wins the battles but you also hear from the experts that must get your tank and research all your modules and then train your crew and then add all your additional/essential modules and elite your tank by getting the next tank in line and then hope the RNG favors you... And this takes 100's of hours of playing to gain this without whipping out your credit card. Did I also mention this only 'marginally' increases the features of your base tank? Now if skill is the major factor here then why do you have to play all those 100's of hours to add and research and train and are at the mercy of the RNG? Shouldn't a skilled player be able to do that without al those modules and research and training and etc? No! You must go through that ritual every time you unlock the next tank if you hope to be competitive at any level above tier 1.

 

Look I'm not complaining about the business model wot uses(they are a business after all), I'm complaining about the so called experts who think skill is a major factor in playing this game when its not. You can't and I mean can't win consistently without investing 100's of hours into a tank or wiping out the credit card and purchasing your crew skills and modules and/or premium tanks. 

 

The bottom line is - If you want to consistently do better then you have to invest huge amounts of time into a tank to make it marginally better or you wipe out your credit card and purchase a premium tank and instantly become a much better tanker.

 

Let me save all the wot experts the response. Yeah I know I'm new and yeah I know my averages are terrible but I'm not dense. I can see how the premium tanks can outperform the standard tanks.

 

WOT experts. I want you to answer truthfully. Do you think you would win more consistently with a premium tank(that plays to your strengths) or a standard tank(without 100's of hours of play time to outfit the tank to be competitive) from the tree? 

 

Like I said, this is not a complaint aimed at WOT(a business has to make a profit) but at the so called wot experts.

 

PS. I'm surprised WOT hasn't sold ad space in its game. You could have an ad play while you are waiting for the count down to complete.

 

Sadly it just doesn't work like that.     The way it works is you put the time and effort in to become a good tanker, THEN use the Premiums to support the rest of your grind to the top.

What yo fail to realize is this is a 7 year old game.   The skill gap (learning maps, weak spots, vehicle limitations/strengths, reading the mini-map, knowing when to push and not to, etc, etc, etc, ) between players at opposite ends of the spectrum is GIGANTIC, as anyone would expect.    No credit card can bridge that gap.   

 

If I roll out my SuperPershing right now I'd be doing my team a disservice.    Sadly I didn't realize that long ago no matter how many people warned against that.      Shiny tank with nice armor I don't know how to use properly.



Capt_Nixon #37 Posted Oct 09 2017 - 00:19

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Yes and no. 

 

Take two decent tankers of equivalent skill and experience, give them each the same tank but only one gets a 75% crew and no gold ammo or add-ons, consumables etc while the other gets gold to buy a 100% crew, best add-ons for view range, concealment, premium ammo, etc, and have them each play 1000 matches ... yes, there will be a difference. The guy who paid might have a 57% win rate while the guy who went f2p will have a 53% win rate. Obviously the tanker granted gold will have better stats in terms of damage, kill ratio, etc, because he paid to have a higher view range, better pen, faster reload, better crew etc.

 

But for most players, only 10% of your win rate is a function of your skill and your equipment ... maybe 15-20% for better players. But the other 80-90% of the games one plays are determined by the players you are teamed with and against, not about your own ability.

 

So paying to play will improve your stats, all else being equal, but it will not make you a better player per se. For two tankers equally good at using cover from a hull-down position to spot and shoot, the player with camo, 100% crew from the start and premium ammo will have better stats because he stays unseen longer and can pen the enemy more effectively, but he won't be a better tanker ... they are equally "good" at spotting and shooting. 

 

 


Edited by Capt_Nixon, Oct 09 2017 - 00:20.


g4143 #38 Posted Oct 09 2017 - 02:40

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View Postdunniteowl, on Oct 08 2017 - 15:14, said:

 

You, sir, are being purposely DENSE.

 

Can you not make a simple equation of equality?


 

I'll make it simple.  You in a stock tank.  Me in a stock tank.  You with a 100% Crew and me with a 50% Crew.  I will THRASH YOU left and right, leaving your head hanging on like a ragdoll's that has most its stitches gone nearly EVERY SINGLE TIME.  Why?  Because I (me, the person at the keyboard) know more about what I'm doing than you do.  Period.  I could take you in a tier lower unit pretty much most of the time.


.....

 

And that's a great argument for better players but it doesn't address the fact that some tanks are better than others.

 

Let me make my example extreme so you will witness it.

 

You are using a M3 Lee and another player with the same skill is using a AMX M4 mle. 49. Now who is going to 'consistently' win in that situation? Yeah the user that has the AMX M4 mle. 49.


Edited by g4143, Oct 09 2017 - 02:41.


g4143 #39 Posted Oct 09 2017 - 02:45

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View PostCapt_Nixon, on Oct 09 2017 - 00:19, said:

 

...

So paying to play will improve your stats, all else being equal, but it will not make you a better player per se...

 

 

 

And what yard stick do you use to measure a good player in WOT? Yeah you use their stats. Thank-you for demonstrating my point.

 

Case in point... Do you remember all the 'experts' trotting out my stats and claiming I'm a terrible player?

 

Why is it so impossible for players to admit that some tanks are better than others? The official docs for the tanks do that very thing.


Edited by g4143, Oct 09 2017 - 02:49.


Capt_Nixon #40 Posted Oct 09 2017 - 03:01

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View Postg4143, on Oct 08 2017 - 19:45, said:

 

And what yard stick do you use to measure a good player in WOT? Yeah you use their stats. Thank-you for demonstrating my point.

 

 

Actually I think you missed my point. I don't use their stats, nor should anyone. Just because some WoT 'God' decided that X%age win rate = Unicum player doesn't mean I must abide by their religion, nor do you.  I use a player's game play to determine their ability, which one can only see in-game (or via video, for the many really good players who have posted tutorial videos, you can clearly see how and why they have WoT talent). 

 

People who use stats to measure a player's effectiveness are simply short-changing their own critical analysis and betraying their own objectivity. You can't know how good a player is until you've played with or against them multiple times, or watched videos of their gameplay. 


Edited by Capt_Nixon, Oct 09 2017 - 03:03.





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