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Free to Play. Pay to Win

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Capt_Nixon #61 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 17:51

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View PostDoomslinger__, on Oct 10 2017 - 04:23, said:

I have watched some of the popular twitch streamers who were starting a new crew in a tank with no skills trained yet. They had better stats with a no skill crew than I could get with a 5 skilled crew in the tank they were playing. They showed their session stats each time they played it and they were way above what most of use could achieve even if we used much better crews in the tank.


​There are some excellent players who can achieve effective tanking with a stock tank, 50% crew, stock ammo, no consumables, etc ... there is no doubt. 


And unfortunately the OP got so many things wrong in his original post that he detracted from a couple very valid points he was trying to make: 1) There is absolutely no disputing the fact that paying for 'extras' -- gold for 100% crews, premium ammo, more credits for better equipment for new tanks, etc -- will improve one's stats; 2) Stats themselves are a flawed and limited indicator of a player's ability. 


In your example, I cite myself ... I am a zero pay player, and 500 battles in to WoT with absolutely no clue what I was doing, I had nearly a 50% win rate. How was a winning record possible (I had more wins than losses but several draws had me just under 50% WR) for a clueless noob like me? Because I was lucky enough to get placed on a lot of really good teams in Tier 1-2 battles with teammates who carried my sorry [edited]through those first 500 battles, and some of my other stats would bear out how sorry I was.


But, those stats also don't tell the whole story either. A couple of my best games came toward the 500-game mark as a contributing tanker to team wins which involved me getting no spots, zero damage and deaths on the Mines map ... I have also had several potential "carry games" with 5-7 kills that ended in a team loss.


Regardless of win rate, which the experts argue averages out for teammate competency over time, my other stats all would have been better had I paid to play for the better crews, equipment and ammo. Maybe even enough to tip 3 or 4 close losses in to the win column to improve my WR by 1% or so. But not enough to take a lucky 50%-er and make me a 55% noob prodigy. It just would have meant more spots, improved damage ratio, improved kill/death ratio, and more XP and credits earned per battle which would now have me in a better position to upgrade crews and tanks more quickly than I currently am.


But It would not make me a 'better' tanker, just a 'more effective' tanker given the upgrades.


Poor players who pay will have better stats, great players who pay will have better stats. There are players I've watched in game after I died who had a 51-53% Win Rate with 15k-20k matches who were significantly better tankers than a couple guys I have on a list here I keep next to my computer who each had 58%+ WRs and 30k-40k battles each with superior supporting stats (kill/death ratio, damage ratio, survival rate, WN8, avg exp, etc ... everything except avg tier) ... the latter guys had over 25k battles each in just one or two tanks at Tiers II and III  (fast pew-pews ... shocker, I know) with 65-70% WRs in those tanks, while the great numbers of tier IV-VII tanks (must be pay to play with that many garage spots) had much smaller battle totals and WRs mostly in the low 40s, and almost no battles in stat killer SPGs as the former guys had. 


The point being that stats are contextual. You have to dig to see what they really mean for each player.


It's not as much 'pay to win' as the OP suggests as it is 'pay to make your stats better', which works for poor player and good player alike. 


So the OP is wasting energy venting at other players who spend money to have an edge ... after all, in a perfect world, as many of those players will end up fighting alongside you as teammates (thus improving YOUR win rate) as will fight against you as enemies. In the same vein, it is a waste of energy and bandwidth to suggest that paying to play doesn't improve stats, because it absolutely objectively does ... otherwise very few would do it.



Edited by Capt_Nixon, Oct 10 2017 - 17:54.

Dogsoldier6 #62 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 17:59


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View Postg4143, on Oct 10 2017 - 02:28, said:

Don't you find it odd that the members must ignore reality to hold onto their positions? Its a special kind of ignorance that ignores reality.




Want to face reality, look in the mirror after checking out your own hard stats in the game.

Ripping #63 Posted Oct 11 2017 - 15:32


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OP Maybe stop posting whining, upset topics about how bad tanks are, or how it is pay 2 win etc etc and send more time playing tanks and improving... You may find then you were wrong about many things you still argue...

Doomslinger__ #64 Posted Oct 12 2017 - 05:12

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Here is a test study done on the EU server where a player started a new account and played 100% free all the way to tier 9 in the Russian medium tank line. According to g4143, this player that did this test should be a 40-45% player because he didn't "pay to win", right? Wrong:

Free to play experiment

Make sure to scroll down to the bottom of the 1st post and click the link to see the result after 900 games and unlocking the tier 9, T-54 medium tank. Look at the results of playing a free account. You will see that the skill of the player is what matters most for your stats. You can't buy your way to good stats if you are not skilled (unless you pay a unicum to play your account which I am sure people actually do - this would be lunacy but some people are just that crazy to do this). It doesn't matter what tanks you play, the better you are at the game, the better your stats will be. A good player can still play a bad tank better than the average player. A bad player will still play a good tank worse than the average player. Sure, you can do better with better tanks but if you are bad, it won't matter what you play, you will still be worse than other players that have more skill in any tank. I played Starcraft for over 10 years on ladder and could never get above average stats no matter how much I played. I just didn't have the ability to play that game well. In WoT, I can play above average in a lot of the tanks but still can't get to unicum levels. We are all limited by our skill cap. Some players are just better at certain games and every game will have a wide range of player skill.

Edited by Doomslinger__, Oct 13 2017 - 01:38.

WangOnTheLoose #65 Posted Oct 12 2017 - 14:53


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View Postg4143, on Oct 08 2017 - 20:45, said:


And what yard stick do you use to measure a good player in WOT? Yeah you use their stats. Thank-you for demonstrating my point.


Case in point... Do you remember all the 'experts' trotting out my stats and claiming I'm a terrible player?


Why is it so impossible for players to admit that some tanks are better than others? The official docs for the tanks do that very thing.


No one has a problem admitting some tanks are better than others, that is objectively true.  What we are saying is that your 43% win rate isn't because you are playing worse tanks it is because you are terrible and don't know what you are doing.  If you played these better tanks you might be able to pull a 45% win rate which is still terrible by the way.  You would certainly not all of a sudden become a 56% winner.


You can complain all you want about the game it doesn't change the fact that you are absolutely one of the bottom 1% of players.  There are bots that play better than you.  I would seriously suggest you try and get better because the game is not fun when you are as bad as you are right now.

poppyfin #66 Posted Apr 03 2018 - 07:00


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View Postriff_, on Oct 07 2017 - 22:24, said:

Does anyone else notice that this game, as you progress through the tiers, becomes more and more about pay and less and less about skill?




poppyfin #67 Posted Apr 03 2018 - 07:02


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You're a moron.  He's saying pay to play will always win.  Doubt that? Answer me this then: how many Unicom players are FTP?


uberdice #68 Posted Apr 03 2018 - 09:52


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View Postpoppyfin, on Apr 03 2018 - 16:02, said:

You're a moron.  He's saying pay to play will always win.  Doubt that? Answer me this then: how many Unicom players are FTP?



Before you start insulting other people's intelligence, how about you point us at any unicums who always win?

Firemoth #69 Posted Apr 03 2018 - 10:04


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View Postpoppyfin, on Apr 03 2018 - 16:02, said:

You're a moron.  He's saying pay to play will always win.  Doubt that? Answer me this then: how many Unicom players are FTP?



the last time i bought premium was 2014, when i got it in a bundle with the type 62.

the last time i bought gold was 2015.

since 2016 i have bought the skorp and the mutz

Edited by Firemoth, Apr 03 2018 - 10:10.

the_Deadly_Bulb #70 Posted Apr 03 2018 - 18:38


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There is ALWAYS some reason or other why a player isn't/can't do well.

Its always something, rigged MM, seal clubbers, prammo, arty and of course the ever popular Pay-to-Win crutch.

What it never is, not ever, is them.


Even though this flies in the face of fact.

Even though their petulant whining is subjected to rapid and complete erosion just by simple reality.

Their theories as to why they can't win don't hold true beyond their own confirmation bias.


People who pay win. Its no secret.

No one looses ALL the time, so those that pay do win.

Here's the kicker, those that don't pay win too.

Paying to play makes no difference in WR.

Premium Time only increases the earnings per battle (win or lose) it doesn't lead to wins or make wins any easier.

Prammo is NEVER purchased by ANYONE with gold, if it is they're doing it wrong.

No one ever escapes the seal clubbers with a Premium Account.

No one gets better MM with a Premium Account.

There is no Pay-to-Avoid Arty so...


If there is a Pay -to-Win road, someone is going to have to show me EXACTLY where it is, because their imagination isn't a place I can visit or make real use of.

coleytrolly #71 Posted Apr 03 2018 - 20:49


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No :D it requires more skill because there are more experienced players in higher tier, so those who pay and rush get destroyed

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