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TSLA Disaster Musk Deathwatch #YOLO EVs Electric vehicles Quality Safety

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indoctrinated #1 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 01:15

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Tesla's operations have "four-star fiasco" written all over it. Here is a small selection of their "achievements".
- Shipping a 100,000$+ vehicle with a fatal safety defect to a customer. How was this even able to leave the factory? This would most likely cause the car to crumple like a tin-can in a front-end collision.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/04/tesla-owner-finds-torn-pillar-freshly-delivered-model-s/



- insane cash burn|

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 The company burned through $1.16 billion in cash in the second quarter by spending on capacity for its cheapest model yet and boosting battery output.

 

-Dubious quality
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2016/06/14/one-out-of-ten-cars-coming-down-the-line-is-a-reject-tesla-says/#9625e9556c16

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 “Product specialists at the event said that on average (both S and X) over 90% of the vehicles coming out of the assembly lines don’t require extra work,”

 

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I asked an executive of a very large global automaker what would happen at his company if one out of 10 cars coming down the line were a reject. The executive, who requested anonymity because he did not want to be showered with vitriol, said:

“We'd stop production immediately, gather management, grasp the situation, find information, and make a decision whether to restart or not. We most likely would not -- 10% is an incredibly high number.”

 

Suspicious corporate culture- having customers sign NDA's for repair work on manufacturing/design defects.
http://dailykanban.com/2016/06/tesla-suspension-breakage-not-crime-coverup/


Tesla's response to the Daily Kanban's investigation into this issue?

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 We don’t know if Mr. Niedermeyer’s motivation is simply to set a world record for axe-grinding or whether he or his associates have something financial to gain by negatively affecting Tesla’s stock price, but it is important to highlight that there are several billion dollars in short sale bets against Tesla. This means that there is a strong financial incentive to greatly amplify minor issues and to create false issues from whole cloth.

 

The new Tesla Model 3 has only had 260(!) units built from late July to end of September.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/10/musk-blames-bottleneck-trickle-hotly-anticipated-backlogged-model-3/
Rumours are that some Model 3 were/are being hand built (!)
https://www.wsj.com/articles/behind-teslas-production-delays-parts-of-model-3-were-being-made-by-hand-1507321057
With this in mind- can anyone convince me that Tesla is a well-run company with these issues just being a "hiccup"?

Sleeper_has_Awaken #2 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 01:28

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Probably BS, the must of done some crazy driving and bent the frame for that to happen.

Mudman24 #3 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 01:31

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I am a fan of them, but I’ll probably wait till they get all of their kinks figured out before going in on one. If they are going strong when I need another vehicle, I’m seriously considering one.

Nonamanadus #4 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 01:37

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Supposed to be top of the line for safety rating but I would see how they fair out in Ontario as they put enough salt on the roads in the winter to age anything and expose weakspots. I never seen rust on an engine block until we imported in a used truck from there. 

SpitYoYoMafia #5 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 01:45

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I'm seriously questioning this because I have never heard of a dealer ever doing this to their customers because it's straight up bad business. Now if the car got damage during the shipping that's not their fault, go after the shippers and make them pay for it.

 

That being said I think that spending more than 40-50k on a car is absurd. Even if I was a billionaire it would still be absurd to me.

 

That being said the newer models are 30k. Like making them affordable for everyone? I don't even think that the middle class could really afford that with how much they get taxed and the bills that they have to pay and families etc.

 

Upper middle class sure but for people that get 50-55k~ a year not so much, they probably already have cars as is.


Edited by SpitYoYoMafia, Oct 10 2017 - 01:48.


indoctrinated #6 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 01:48

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Seriously the articles illuminate some very disturbing facts about Tesla.

View PostSleeper_has_Awaken, on Oct 09 2017 - 20:28, said:

Probably BS, the must of done some crazy driving and bent the frame for that to happen.

You're going to call the paying owner of a Tesla a liar?
 

Block Quote

 I picked up my S90D last Friday and was super happy about it, there was some trim mis-alignment on delivery but nothing serious. Today, I was showing off the car to my brother in-law and noticed something very wrong with the A-Pillar. On the passenger side where it touches the front of the windshield, the aluminium was actually cracked and there is a gaping hole to the inside! There is no way that I would have actually caused this and you can see that they painted the crack part as well.

 

View PostMudman24, on Oct 09 2017 - 20:31, said:

I am a fan of them, but I’ll probably wait till they get all of their kinks figured out before going in on one. If they are going strong when I need another vehicle, I’m seriously considering one.
If you buy one you're probably better off waiting quite some time for Tesla to work out any problems, if that ever happens.

View PostNonamanadus, on Oct 09 2017 - 20:37, said:

Supposed to be top of the line for safety rating but I would see how they fair out in Ontario as they put enough salt on the roads in the winter to age anything and expose weakspots. I never seen rust on an engine block until we imported in a used truck from there. 

That ball-joint failure apparantly happend at 70,000 miles. The problem is Tesla asked the owner to sign an NDA as part of a "goodwill" agreement where Tesla would pay 1/2 of the repair cost. Quite disturbing to do that when this is a serious safety issue.



SpitYoYoMafia #7 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 01:51

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View Postindoctrinated, on Oct 09 2017 - 16:48, said:

Seriously the articles are shine some very disturbing facts about Tesla.

You're going to call the paying owner of a Tesla a liar?
 

 

If you buy one you're probably better off waiting quite some time for Tesla to work out any problems, if that ever happens.

That ball-joint failure apparantly happend at 70,000 miles. The problem is Tesla asked the owner to sign an NDA as part of a "goodwill" agreement where Tesla would pay 1/2 of the repair cost. Quite disturbing to do that when this is a serious safety issue.


 

 

Uh, this is definitely their fault. If it wasn't you wouldn't be signing that piece of paper, even if it was to "look good" it shows that you're at fault. . .

 

That being said I never see myself ever buying one. I still seriously question whether or not tesla shipped that car in that condition though, that seems extremely fishy and such bad business especially for so much money exchanging hands.

 

Edit: The fact that it is painted over already does show that it happened in the factory. But this is just so damn sketchy, someone is definitely getting fired. . .


Edited by SpitYoYoMafia, Oct 10 2017 - 02:06.


StoveBolt54 #8 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 01:59

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I'll stick with me trusty '69 C-20 Chevy truck.

indoctrinated #9 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 02:06

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Oct 09 2017 - 20:51, said:

 

Uh, this is definitely their fault. If it wasn't you wouldn't be signing that piece of paper, even if it was to "look good" it shows that you're at fault. . .

 

That being said I never see myself ever buying one. I still seriously question whether or not tesla shipped that car in that condition though, that seems extremely fishy and such bad business especially for so much money exchanging hands.

To me that NDA is an indication that Tesla wants to conceal a serious defect with the vehicle. This would collapse your front suspension and easily cause a collision when driving the vehicle. I don't think I've ever heard of the other automakers having customers sign these documents with their vehicles.
The cracked pillar is 100% a manufacturing defect. If it was from shipping damage you'd most likely see damages to other parts of the exterior, but this problem is specifically located in the front pillar.

Large majority of luxury vehicles are merely leased or financed- I doubt anyone actually pays the cost upfront. I myself am not that interested in 60,000+$ vehicles, nor do luxury badges necessarily impress me but there are discernible differences in ride quality, comfort, etc etc in S-Class, Lexus LS, Genesis G90 class vehicles.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/08/shocker-premium-buyers-actually-lease/
 

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 Industry-wide, leases comprise about a fifth of all new vehicle registrations, but within the luxury market, lease penetration is more than twice as high at 45%. Three premium makes: BMW, Infiniti and Mercedes-Benz, actually have national lease rates at or above 50%…

 

 



SpitYoYoMafia #10 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 02:08

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View Postindoctrinated, on Oct 09 2017 - 17:06, said:

To me that NDA is an indication that Tesla wants to conceal a serious defect with the vehicle. This would collapse your front suspension and easily cause a collision when driving the vehicle. I don't think I've ever heard of the other automakers having customers sign these documents with their vehicles.
The cracked pillar is 100% a manufacturing defect. If it was from shipping damage you'd most likely see damages to other parts of the exterior, but this problem is specifically located in the front pillar.

Large majority of luxury vehicles are merely leased or financed- I doubt anyone actually pays the cost upfront. I myself am not that interested in 60,000+$ vehicles, nor do luxury badges necessarily impress me but there are discernible differences in ride quality, comfort, etc etc in S-Class, Lexus LS, Genesis G90 class vehicles.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/08/shocker-premium-buyers-actually-lease/
 

 

 

 

I think that the guy that signed the paper isn't very smart either, I would just get a lawyer and sue because that's worth a hell of a lot more money especially if they don't even want to fork over for the full repair cost for their defect.

indoctrinated #11 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 02:16

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Oct 09 2017 - 21:08, said:

 

I think that the guy that signed the paper isn't very smart either, I would just get a lawyer and sue because that's worth a hell of a lot more money especially if they don't even want to fork over for the full repair cost for their defect.

 

Tesla was pretty lucky that they didn't seem to land in any big legal trouble with the NHTSA

Block Quote

 

NHTSA Communications Director Brian Thomas, when speaking with Neidermeyer, explained, “NHTSA is examining the potential suspension issue on the Tesla Model S, and is seeking additional information from vehicle owners and the company.

“NHTSA learned of Tesla’s troublesome nondisclosure agreement last month. The agency immediately informed Tesla that any language implying that consumers should not contact the agency regarding safety concerns is unacceptable, and NHTSA expects Tesla to eliminate any such language. Tesla representatives told NHTSA that it was not their intention to dissuade consumers from contacting the agency. NHTSA always encourages vehicle owners concerned about potential safety defects to contact the agency by filing a vehicle safety complaint at SaferCar.gov.”

 

I really don't know how Tesla is getting away with all of this. These are serious problems that would cripple any "normal" automotive OEM.
I have no doubt someone got into hot water regarding the cracked pillar. Tesla would have been in huge trouble letting a dangerously defective car like that go for sale, and into the hands of a customer. The fact that it happened is disturbing enough.

lordawesome7 #12 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 02:28

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everyone here is talking about these expensive cars and im here with my <$5K car going at a moderate pace with good fuel efficiency (like 27-28 mpg)

indoctrinated #13 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 02:39

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View Postlordawesome7, on Oct 09 2017 - 21:28, said:

everyone here is talking about these expensive cars and im here with my <$5K car going at a moderate pace with good fuel efficiency (like 27-28 mpg)

Hilarious you should mention this.

I'd actually prefer driving this 1992-1996 Toyota Camry rather than the majority of new vehicles on sale today. Mediocre power output from it's motors but they were bullet-proof. Nice quiet comfortable ride.



SpitYoYoMafia #14 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 02:43

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View Postlordawesome7, on Oct 09 2017 - 17:28, said:

everyone here is talking about these expensive cars and im here with my <$5K car going at a moderate pace with good fuel efficiency (like 27-28 mpg)

 

I don't even own a car yet :(

 

I probably won't get my first car until next year

 

I do want an old crown vic for my first car though :trollface:

 

Edit: I just wanted to say as a future engineer thanks for posting this, I did some research and learned a lot about the car industry and how a lot of processes work from people who worked there. It was really interesting to see people's different takes on this subject and what went wrong, why, and how as well as how to prevent this in the future.


Edited by SpitYoYoMafia, Oct 10 2017 - 02:57.


lordawesome7 #15 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 03:04

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View Postindoctrinated, on Oct 09 2017 - 20:39, said:

Hilarious you should mention this.

I'd actually prefer driving this 1992-1996 Toyota Camry rather than the majority of new vehicles on sale today. Mediocre power output from it's motors but they were bullet-proof. Nice quiet comfortable ride.

 

yeah, i got a used Hyundai Accent 2010 that the dealers son got a dent on, so that saved me $500 and florida gas is dirt cheap compared to nyc (i moved down for college) so its really nice and smooth getting around compared to the crowwded streets of the city

 

i dont see why most people would need more, though if this counts as a dream car, this would be nice having light composite armor while being very agile and good looking https://inkasarmored...s-maybach-s600/


Edited by lordawesome7, Oct 10 2017 - 03:04.


indoctrinated #16 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 03:15

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Oct 09 2017 - 21:43, said:

 

Edit: I just wanted to say as a future engineer thanks for posting this, I did some research and learned a lot about the car industry and how a lot of processes work from people who worked there. It was really interesting to see people's different takes on this subject and what went wrong, why, and how as well as how to prevent this in the future.

I read quite a lot of posts from various sites like TTAC, Ridgeline Owners Club and Daily Kanban. It's quite interesting learning about the automotive industry. I've also spoken to other posters on this forum regarding the industry too. I actually learned what "six sigma" manufacturing is from Mattwong a while back.
Another automotive manufacturer that's highly suspect is Honda. Their recently released vehicles (2016 Pilot, 2017 Ridgeline and 2018 Odyssey) have had severe quality issues. Have a gander at this:
http://www.odyclub.com/forums/81-2018-odyssey/303330-quality-issues.html


 

View Postlordawesome7, on Oct 09 2017 - 22:04, said:

 

yeah, i got a used Hyundai Accent 2010 that the dealers son got a dent on, so that saved me $500 and florida gas is dirt cheap compared to nyc (i moved down for college) so its really nice and smooth getting around compared to the crowwded streets of the city

 

i dont see why most people would need more, though if this counts as a dream car, this would be nice having light composite armor while being very agile and good looking https://inkasarmored...s-maybach-s600/

Hyundai Accent looks like a pretty solid, economical commuter car. Great choice.
If you drive some decently luxurious vehicles like the Grand Cherokee, Chrysler 300, Hyundai Genesis (these are all more affordable than Lexus, Daimler, etc etc) you'll notice a discernible increase in comfort. It's very tangible, but YMMV. Depends on if this increase in comfort and quietness is important to you.


Edited by indoctrinated, Oct 10 2017 - 03:16.


SpitYoYoMafia #17 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 14:47

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I think that I'm starting to see a problem here. The companies are releasing products before they are perfected for public consumption. In doing do their first products usually have defects for the first set (s) of models and they'd rather sell then fix the issues with them than to put them back on the assembly line or simply wait until they can proficiently produce them.

 

I don't believe that this is a QA issue anymore. Big wigs are likely pushing for this. But is it worth your reputation? What happens if there is a structural failure? What if something that should never have happened actually happens? How do you do damage control for these events? Why even take the risk in the first place?

 

I can somewhat understand their perspective but it's very difficult to accept tarnishing a good reputation and risking law suits for this.



indoctrinated #18 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 22:37

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My gut feeling is this is more of a corporate culture problem which begins with the companies' leadership. I believe that currently Honda and Tesla can get away with it due to their customer's perceptions of their respective brands. Honda has a reputation for producing quality vehicles built up from the 80s and 90s while Tesla is seen as an "innovative" (LOL, what is innovative about Tesla?).
If you actually take a look at the vehicle structure on the Model S it is possible that more defective models may have left the factory but are simply hidden from view:


The upper portions of the vehicle structure may have been cracked but are merely concealed by the interior trim. You'd have to rip open the vehicle's interior to actually check this.
Honda is in a similarly dire situation:

Csimo

 

Hachigo has one huge mess to clean up before he can start moving forward. Honda is just starting to get the initial quality surveys back on the new Pilot and from what I've heard the results are very bad. I visited the Pilot forum and was astounded at the number of problems reported, and how few good news stories were posted. Many of the problems are associated with the 9AT transmission and we won't have to deal with that on the next generation Ridgeline, but there are many other common problems reported.

One person I hold in high regard said the new Pilot wasn't ready for mass production but management pushed it anyway. There are some design and engineering problems combined with poor build quality at Lincoln, AL. I know I'm a dinosaur in the industry and many assembly techniques have changed, but I'm pretty damned sure that there's still several people involved in final inspection before the vehicle is 'bought off'. They're lucky I'm not in charge of final inspection because if I were some people wouldn't have a job on Monday morning.
 

On top of all that Honda is trying to get the Alabama plant back in shape. Many, many quality problems out of that plant. Variations in welding of several millimeters that are totally unacceptable (thus the reason for all the door misalignment complaints on Ridgeline, Pilot and MDX.

I think Honda has too much on their plate right now, and not enough people to put out all the fires. Additionally they don't have the transmission to make it all work unless they pull a rabbit out of the hat.

I believe every word of the above.
 

 If you check Carcomplaints.com you'll see a sharp increase in complaints regarding Honda vehicles from the early 2000s onwards. The 2008 Accord was especially bad.


So far it seems like Honda's quality issues aren't being taken that seriously (?). Tesla seems to have a whole army of rabid fanboys who will shill for this corporation (LOL).



indoctrinated #19 Posted Oct 11 2017 - 02:19

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In an earlier thread I learned more about the pitfalls of attempting to use purely (or mostly) computer design when assembling a vehicle. An example can be seen here:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20150820/OEM01/150829985/honda-goes-prototype-free-to-build-redesigned-pilot
 

Block Quote

 The manufacturing processes used to build the Pilot were engineered and proofed entirely by computer simulation, while design and equipment changes were validated by using test parts quickly produced by 3-D printers.
The newest Pilot was developed "in a virtual world," said Jeff Tomko, president of Honda Manufacturing Alabama, the assembly complex in Lincoln where the Pilot is built. "We developed the manufacturing process virtually so we can make changes before we start with actual builds."

 

Tesla is going along the same route with the Model 3:
http://gas2.org/2017/03/18/tesla-model-3-will-skip-beta-phase-go-directly-early-release-cars/
Problem is Tesla skipped a prototype production line process (using tools that are easier and cheaper to change or modify) which would let them iron out any possible kinks or issues that may occur- instead they are going right to using production tooling.

Block Quote

  Last week, during a conference call with investment bankers involved with the sale of more Tesla stock, Elon Musk made a surprising announcement. He said the analytic tools Tesla has developed will allow the company to skip the beta phase entirely for the Model 3.

 Very high risk strategy with huge downfall potential. This all ties in with reports of hand-built parts being used to produce Model 3s explaining the very low production numbers.
Any bottleneck will dramatically slow production. GM was facing a shutdown of vehicle production due to the bankruptcy of a supplier of  soundproofing materials- Clark-Cutler-McDermott Co.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20160718/OEM10/160719875/gm-scrambles-after-supplier-bankruptcy



SpitYoYoMafia #20 Posted Oct 11 2017 - 16:52

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View Postindoctrinated, on Oct 10 2017 - 17:19, said:

In an earlier thread I learned more about the pitfalls of attempting to use purely (or mostly) computer design when assembling a vehicle. An example can be seen here:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20150820/OEM01/150829985/honda-goes-prototype-free-to-build-redesigned-pilot
 

 

Tesla is going along the same route with the Model 3:
http://gas2.org/2017/03/18/tesla-model-3-will-skip-beta-phase-go-directly-early-release-cars/
Problem is Tesla skipped a prototype production line process (using tools that are easier and cheaper to change or modify) which would let them iron out any possible kinks or issues that may occur- instead they are going right to using production tooling.

 Very high risk strategy with huge downfall potential. This all ties in with reports of hand-built parts being used to produce Model 3s explaining the very low production numbers.
Any bottleneck will dramatically slow production. GM was facing a shutdown of vehicle production due to the bankruptcy of a supplier of  soundproofing materials- Clark-Cutler-McDermott Co.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20160718/OEM10/160719875/gm-scrambles-after-supplier-bankruptcy

 

Wow are you serious? Prototyping any type of new design is almost a #1 priority especially when we are talking about delivering goods and services to the public that could potentially harm them.

 

I looked at the link and those guys are insane. I'll be surprised if they don't fall flat on their [edited]






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