Jump to content


The Tesla trainwreck

TSLA Disaster Musk Deathwatch #YOLO EVs Electric vehicles Quality Safety

  • Please log in to reply
201 replies to this topic

SpitYoYoMafia #141 Posted Nov 13 2017 - 13:00

    Major

  • Players
  • 18942 battles
  • 14,069
  • Member since:
    05-25-2012

View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Nov 12 2017 - 09:07, said:

The ’81 Aries K carried a 41 MPG highway rating – easily meeting (easily surpassing) the CAFE mandatory minimum that year.  Mind, that was with a carbureted engine and a transmission without overdrive gearing. It was nothing less than spectacular. Consider that today – almost 40 years later and with all the advancements in technology – very few new cars can manage 40 or better on the highway.

https://www.ericpete...r-reconsidered/

 

In previous articles this author has said that if auto makers were not constrained by government mandates we could have gas powered cars getting 50+ mpg while emitting over 90% less pollutants than internal combustion engines did in the 1970's.  

 

 

I believe this to be true since gas is owned by the government and they still both need and want to make $$$$$$



GeorgePreddy #142 Posted Nov 13 2017 - 13:49

    Major

  • Players
  • 14345 battles
  • 10,047
  • [L_LEG] L_LEG
  • Member since:
    04-11-2013

View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Nov 13 2017 - 09:00, said:

 

 gas is owned by the government

 



Shrike58 #143 Posted Nov 13 2017 - 14:39

    Major

  • Players
  • 65713 battles
  • 8,357
  • [SG] SG
  • Member since:
    02-23-2013
That Tesla has gotten as far as it has and as fast as it has is impressive...however, selling to well-heeled cultists and selling to people who want to make a statement but at the same time want a car that simply works is another thing. This is keeping in mind that what Elon Musk wants to sell is a whole eco-system more than simply a car.

SpitYoYoMafia #144 Posted Nov 13 2017 - 20:59

    Major

  • Players
  • 18942 battles
  • 14,069
  • Member since:
    05-25-2012

View PostGeorgePreddy, on Nov 13 2017 - 04:49, said:

 

 

Okay, so why did we go to war in Iraq? The government wanted oil and resources which is $$$$$$.

 

That stuff is government ran dude. You can literally GOOGLE this. The government owns that [edited].

 

https://www.wsj.com/...258541875590852

http://www.whoownsbi...d-gas-companies

http://www.economist.com/node/7270301

 

Gas and oil and the likes are government owned. Private businesses barely own any of the market.

 

Can you go troll elsewhere if you're not going to bring facts to this thread?


Edited by SpitYoYoMafia, Nov 13 2017 - 21:04.


indoctrinated #145 Posted Nov 14 2017 - 01:22

    Major

  • Players
  • 20187 battles
  • 2,173
  • Member since:
    05-22-2012

View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Nov 12 2017 - 13:07, said:

The ’81 Aries K carried a 41 MPG highway rating – easily meeting (easily surpassing) the CAFE mandatory minimum that year.  Mind, that was with a carbureted engine and a transmission without overdrive gearing. It was nothing less than spectacular. Consider that today – almost 40 years later and with all the advancements in technology – very few new cars can manage 40 or better on the highway.

https://www.ericpete...r-reconsidered/

 

In previous articles this author has said that if auto makers were not constrained by government mandates we could have gas powered cars getting 50+ mpg while emitting over 90% less pollutants than internal combustion engines did in the 1970's.  

 

Not so fast. Vehicles produced nowadays must meet much more stringent crash standards, pedestrian safety standards. Consumers also want more creature comforts in their vehicles nowadays. Observe this crash test:

Compare the fuel mileage of two vehicles- 40 MPG highway seems to be a ballpark mileage estimate. The EPA rates that vehicle as getting 26 MPG highway. The Q50 Red Sport (400+ HP Twin turbo 3.0 V6) gets almost identical fuel mileage but produces a LOT more power, is a LOT more comfortable and handles better.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=37348&id=465
 

View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Nov 13 2017 - 15:59, said:

 

Okay, so why did we go to war in Iraq? The government wanted oil and resources which is $$$$$$.

 

That stuff is government ran dude. You can literally GOOGLE this. The government owns that [edited].

 

https://www.wsj.com/...258541875590852

http://www.whoownsbi...d-gas-companies

http://www.economist.com/node/7270301

 

Gas and oil and the likes are government owned. Private businesses barely own any of the market.

 

Can you go troll elsewhere if you're not going to bring facts to this thread?

One thing people don't seem to understand is the American lifestyle requires copious amounts of oil to function. America uses about 20 million barrels of oil per day. We would need to lower our standards of living to reduce our oil consumption and I doubt people are going to tolerate that, no matter the lip service they pay to "conservation" and "the environment".



indoctrinated #146 Posted Nov 14 2017 - 03:30

    Major

  • Players
  • 20187 battles
  • 2,173
  • Member since:
    05-22-2012
Here's some updated estimates on how many people placed deposits on the Model 3.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-13/tesla-model-3-depositors-staying-put-as-wait-in-line-lengthens

700 million deposit dollars divided by 1000 dollars per deposit yields approximately 700,000 people who have placed a deposit for the Model 3. I see 700,000 suckers (or sycophants) who don't realize Tesla's made a fool of them. Numerous quality issues, a disgusting corporate culture, overall dysfunctional management- the problems go on yet these people are not deterred in the slightest. Insane.

Block Quote

 Tesla ended up making just 260 Model 3 sedans in the third quarter, far fewer than the company’s projection of 1,500.

 



SpitYoYoMafia #147 Posted Nov 14 2017 - 04:00

    Major

  • Players
  • 18942 battles
  • 14,069
  • Member since:
    05-25-2012

View Postindoctrinated, on Nov 13 2017 - 16:22, said:

Not so fast. Vehicles produced nowadays must meet much more stringent crash standards, pedestrian safety standards. Consumers also want more creature comforts in their vehicles nowadays. Observe this crash test:

 

Rip that Bel Air does not exist anymore, waste of a perfectly good car too. . .

indoctrinated #148 Posted Nov 14 2017 - 04:21

    Major

  • Players
  • 20187 battles
  • 2,173
  • Member since:
    05-22-2012

View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Nov 13 2017 - 23:00, said:

 

Rip that Bel Air does not exist anymore, waste of a perfectly good car too. . .

It is a waste of a nice classic car. Still, it -does- show that modern cars are much safer in a crash.



SpitYoYoMafia #149 Posted Nov 14 2017 - 13:25

    Major

  • Players
  • 18942 battles
  • 14,069
  • Member since:
    05-25-2012
Pretty sure that bel air driver died when the passenger cabin caved in.

SPACEDUDE71 #150 Posted Nov 14 2017 - 14:25

    First lieutenant

  • Beta Testers
  • 12114 battles
  • 530
  • Member since:
    10-06-2010
First of all tesla doesnt make the parts. Outside vendors do.
Learn to auto manufacturing

SPACEDUDE71 #151 Posted Nov 14 2017 - 14:26

    First lieutenant

  • Beta Testers
  • 12114 battles
  • 530
  • Member since:
    10-06-2010
Youre more than 10× safer in todays cars than you are in a 60sbor 70s model.

SpitYoYoMafia #152 Posted Nov 14 2017 - 18:44

    Major

  • Players
  • 18942 battles
  • 14,069
  • Member since:
    05-25-2012

View PostSPACEDUDE71, on Nov 14 2017 - 05:25, said:

First of all tesla doesnt make the parts. Outside vendors do.
Learn to auto manufacturing

 

They actually don't outsource, there's proof of that here, on this thread. You can google it.

 

https://scm.ncsu.edu...mpact-at-tesla/

 

https://www.forbes.c...y/#11a5ddbb7844

 

Tesla barely outsources at ALL. If they can build it they make it. People say that this is a good thing, look at the amount of defects their cars have. This is why outsourcing is good. You get products that already have quality without having to pay for costs in development or creating many many factories to build your materials.

 

Tesla doesn't care about that. Fine, but do it right. They aren't.


Edited by SpitYoYoMafia, Nov 14 2017 - 18:51.


indoctrinated #153 Posted Nov 14 2017 - 23:34

    Major

  • Players
  • 20187 battles
  • 2,173
  • Member since:
    05-22-2012

View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Nov 14 2017 - 08:25, said:

Pretty sure that bel air driver died when the passenger cabin caved in.

That's most likely a fatal outcome for the Bel Air driver. Doubt they would survive that kind of collision.

View PostSPACEDUDE71, on Nov 14 2017 - 09:25, said:

First of all tesla doesnt make the parts. Outside vendors do.
Learn to auto manufacturing

On the contrary it's -you- that needs to do some research. Tesla is a vertically integrated automaker, in contrary to EVERY OTHER automotive OEM which are horizontally integrated manufacturers. How hard is it to find this information on Google?

View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Nov 14 2017 - 13:44, said:

 

They actually don't outsource, there's proof of that here, on this thread. You can google it.

 

https://scm.ncsu.edu...mpact-at-tesla/

 

https://www.forbes.c...y/#11a5ddbb7844

 

Tesla barely outsources at ALL. If they can build it they make it. People say that this is a good thing, look at the amount of defects their cars have. This is why outsourcing is good. You get products that already have quality without having to pay for costs in development or creating many many factories to build your materials.

 

Tesla doesn't care about that. Fine, but do it right. They aren't.

 

LOL @ those articles trying to spin Tesla's vertical integration of suppliers as a virtue. If that is such a successful business model, how come no other major automotive OEM does this too?

Klaatu_Nicto #154 Posted Nov 15 2017 - 00:40

    Major

  • Players
  • 44020 battles
  • 9,176
  • Member since:
    09-21-2012

View Postindoctrinated, on Nov 13 2017 - 16:22, said:

Not so fast. Vehicles produced nowadays must meet much more stringent crash standards, pedestrian safety standards. Consumers also want more creature comforts in their vehicles nowadays. Observe this crash test:
 

 

Creature comforts? A steering wheel and shifter is all I require.

 

 



indoctrinated #155 Posted Nov 15 2017 - 00:54

    Major

  • Players
  • 20187 battles
  • 2,173
  • Member since:
    05-22-2012
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-13/hotbed-racist-behavior-100-tesla-employees-file-lawsuit-alleging-severe-and-pervasiv
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-13/tesla-a-hotbed-for-racist-behavior-black-workers-claim-in-suit
A LOT of allegations that Tesla has a racist atmosphere.

Block Quote

 Tesla Inc.’s production floor is a "hotbed for racist behavior," an African-American employee claimed in a lawsuit in which he alleged black workers at the electric carmaker suffer severe and pervasive harassment.

 

The employee says he’s one of more than 100 African-American Tesla workers affected and is seeking permission from a judge to sue on behalf of the group.

"Although Tesla stands out as a groundbreaking company at the forefront of the electric car revolution, its standard operating procedure at the Tesla factory is pre-Civil Rights era race discrimination,"

The lawsuit was filed on behalf of Marcus Vaughn, who worked in the Fremont factory from April 23 to Oct. 31. Vaughn alleged that employees and supervisors regularly used the “N word” around him and other black colleagues. Vaughn said he complained in writing to human resources and Musk and was terminated in late October for "not having a positive attitude."
 

Three former Tesla factory workers charge in a new suit the company’s factory is a hostile environment for black workers, adding to earlier accusations of racial harassment.

 

The men, who are African-American, claim in a new complaint filed Monday in state court that Tesla supervisors and workers used racial epithets and drew racist graffiti on cardboard boxes.

 

The suit, filed in Alameda County Superior Court, claims Owen Diaz and his son, Demetric, were called the N-word while they worked at the Fremont factory, and supervisors did little to stop it. A third man, Lamar Patterson, also claims he was subjected to insensitive racist remarks.

 

Demetric Diaz complained about the regular use of epithets to the staffing agency and another supervisor, the suit said. The supervisor told him he was just a replaceable temporary worker. Diaz was dismissed less than a week later in October 2015.
 

What a stellar employer to work for!



indoctrinated #156 Posted Nov 15 2017 - 00:59

    Major

  • Players
  • 20187 battles
  • 2,173
  • Member since:
    05-22-2012

View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Nov 14 2017 - 19:40, said:

 

Creature comforts? A steering wheel and shifter is all I require.

 

 

 

You pretty much need an A/C system, heating, soundproofing (unless you want an unbearably loud ride), console storage spaces, etc etc. The list goes on. No one nowadays drives a barebones car with a stripped interior.

SPACEDUDE71 #157 Posted Nov 15 2017 - 13:18

    First lieutenant

  • Beta Testers
  • 12114 battles
  • 530
  • Member since:
    10-06-2010

View Postindoctrinated, on Nov 14 2017 - 17:34, said:

That's most likely a fatal outcome for the Bel Air driver. Doubt they would survive that kind of collision.

On the contrary it's -you- that needs to do some research. Tesla is a vertically integrated automaker, in contrary to EVERY OTHER automotive OEM which are horizontally integrated manufacturers. How hard is it to find this information on Google?

 

LOL @ those articles trying to spin Tesla's vertical integration of suppliers as a virtue. If that is such a successful business model, how come no other major automotive OEM does this too?

They've not just considered outsourcing the manufacturing, they did it from the start. Lotus makes the cars in England.

According to Wikipedia: "The car is assembled at the Lotus factory in Hethel, England, with drivetrain components and body components supplied to the factory by Tesla. . . Tesla Motors' plant in Taiwan manufactures the motors and the Energy Storage Systems (ESS) was initially manufactured in Thailand during development and then moved to San Carlos, California, after production started. Chassis are manufactured in Norway. SOTIRA, in St. Meloir & Pouancé, France, create the RTM carbon fiber body panels. The Roadster's brakes and airbags are made by Siemens in Germany and crash testing was conducted at Siemens as well"

Confirmation of the Lotus relationship from Tesla here: http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=7

 I would say you are the idiot. Cause this seems like outsourcing to me. And this doesnt even consider the other 1000 parts like wires and switches and paint and such.

 Ive worked at ford motor company for 26 yrs. I know wthim talking about. Ive also been to a tesla plant.

 But i do love when morons like you show up and show what you really are.



SpitYoYoMafia #158 Posted Nov 15 2017 - 13:27

    Major

  • Players
  • 18942 battles
  • 14,069
  • Member since:
    05-25-2012

View PostSPACEDUDE71, on Nov 15 2017 - 04:18, said:

They've not just considered outsourcing the manufacturing, they did it from the start. Lotus makes the cars in England.

According to Wikipedia: "The car is assembled at the Lotus factory in Hethel, England, with drivetrain components and body components supplied to the factory by Tesla. . . Tesla Motors' plant in Taiwan manufactures the motors and the Energy Storage Systems (ESS) was initially manufactured in Thailand during development and then moved to San Carlos, California, after production started. Chassis are manufactured in Norway. SOTIRA, in St. Meloir & Pouancé, France, create the RTM carbon fiber body panels. The Roadster's brakes and airbags are made by Siemens in Germany and crash testing was conducted at Siemens as well"

Confirmation of the Lotus relationship from Tesla here: http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=7

 I would say you are the idiot. Cause this seems like outsourcing to me. And this doesnt even consider the other 1000 parts like wires and switches and paint and such.

 Ive worked at ford motor company for 26 yrs. I know wthim talking about. Ive also been to a tesla plant.

 But i do love when morons like you show up and show what you really are.

 

First off you need to understand that we never said that they never outsource at all, we said that they BARELY outsource. The idiot here is still you.

 

Also that information is def outdated, it's not even known if that stuff is true. That's why the wiki is trash and not a reliable source. Anyone can put anything on the wiki.

 

This is from the wiki as well while you're busy trying to call people an idiot

 

"Tesla's production strategy includes a high degree of vertical integration (80% in 2016 according), which includes component production and proprietary charging infrastructure. The company operates enormous factories to capture economies of scale. Tesla builds electric powertrain components for vehicles from other automakers, including the Smart ED2 ForTwo electric drive(the lowest-priced car from Daimler AG), the Toyota RAV4 EV, and Freightliner's Custom Chassis Electric Van. Vertical integration is rare in the automotive industry, where companies typically outsource 80% of components to suppliers, and focus on engine manufacturing and final assembly."

 

Even the wiki clearly states that they are not outsourcing like they should.

 

In case you don't know what vertical integration is:

 

"In microeconomics and managementvertical integration is an arrangement in which the supply chain of a company is owned by that company. Usually each member of the supply chain produces a different product or (market-specific) service, and the products combine to satisfy a common need. It is contrasted with horizontal integration, wherein a company produces several items which are related to one another. Vertical integration has also described management styles that bring large portions of the supply chain not only under a common ownership, but also into one corporation (as in the 1920s when the Ford River Rouge Complex began making much of its own steel rather than buying it from suppliers).

Vertical integration and expansion is desired because it secures the supplies needed by the firm to produce its product and the market needed to sell the product. Vertical integration and expansion can become undesirable when its actions become anti-competitive and impede free competition in an open marketplace. Vertical integration is one method of avoiding the hold-up problem. A monopoly produced through vertical integration is called a "vertical monopoly"."

 

You even state yourself that not outsourcing is stupid and unheard of for car manufacturing companies. So why doesn't tesla?


Edited by SpitYoYoMafia, Nov 15 2017 - 13:33.


strenfoo #159 Posted Nov 15 2017 - 15:49

    Captain

  • -Players-
  • 12425 battles
  • 1,256
  • Member since:
    08-15-2015

View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Nov 14 2017 - 17:40, said:

Creature comforts? A steering wheel and shifter is all I require

 

You are in the very small minority.

Klaatu_Nicto #160 Posted Nov 15 2017 - 19:16

    Major

  • Players
  • 44020 battles
  • 9,176
  • Member since:
    09-21-2012

View Postindoctrinated, on Nov 14 2017 - 15:59, said:

 

You pretty much need an A/C system, heating, soundproofing (unless you want an unbearably loud ride), console storage spaces, etc etc. The list goes on. No one nowadays drives a barebones car with a stripped interior.

 

Soundproofing?  Then you miss the sweetest sound in the world. 

Spoiler

 

Barebones is good.

Spoiler

 






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users