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indoctrinated #61 Posted Oct 21 2017 - 00:31

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Oct 19 2017 - 21:57, said:

 

If a person is working for you and doing the best that they can, what does how they identify themselves have anything to do with it? They are making you a lot of money aren't they?!?!?

 

One thing I've noticed is Tesla doesn't try to take responsibility for what they've done- they always play the same game of blaming the victim or attacking their critics:

Block Quote

 “[E]very lawyer knows that if they name Tesla as a defendant in their lawsuit, it maximizes the chances of generating publicity for their case. They abuse our name, because they know it is catnip for journalists … There is no company on Earth with a better track record than Tesla, as they would have to have fewer than zero cases where an independent judge or jury has found a genuine case of discrimination.”

Tesla’s response to the Diaz lawsuit included a detailed attack on the attorney, saying his original suit was “timed to coincide with a carefully planned media blitz in an attempt to create a disingenuous narrative that was at odds with the facts” and that the “timing of these new claims and the manner in which they are being publicized is notable, particularly coming from the same attorney”.

 

Also- Tesla isn't making any money. A literal cash-furnace.

indoctrinated #62 Posted Oct 22 2017 - 03:14

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I mentioned Tesla having anti-consumer practices as corporate policy. Here's an example:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/10/tesla-doesnt-want-work-cars/
Tesla does NOT want you to repair/maintain your own car, or allow the aftermarket/independent shops to help you out. By keeping service and diagnostic information to themselves, Tesla is your ONLY source of repairs/maintenance.
Why are people defending these practices?

Block Quote

 Your point about the diag software potentially being used to reverse engineer module communication is spot on.


Trade secrets are expressly protected by the MA law, so anything internal to the car and its operation (other than simply replacing modules or flashing packaged firmware) is likely not going to be disclosed as part of "right to repair".

These guys think people are going to start reverse engineering Tesla vehicles based on this? What a load of nonsense!
Other automakers routinely tear apart competitor vehicles and learn from them!
 

GM LGX 3.6L engine

 Noise-reducing features, including an all-new cam drive system, contribute to the new 3.6L being up to 4 dB quieter at idle and under low load driving conditions than the benchmark Infiniti 3.7L V-6.
 

 



Klaatu_Nicto #63 Posted Oct 23 2017 - 17:52

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"It’s my bet that range is not even half what is advertised when the car is driven remotely aggressively and the accessories uses liberally. I suspect Tesla knows this. It explains why only “select” journalists – which isn’t me – are allowed anywhere near one unsupervised." - Eric Peters, automotive journalist

indoctrinated #64 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 00:54

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View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Oct 23 2017 - 12:52, said:

"It’s my bet that range is not even half what is advertised when the car is driven remotely aggressively and the accessories uses liberally. I suspect Tesla knows this. It explains why only “select” journalists – which isn’t me – are allowed anywhere near one unsupervised." - Eric Peters, automotive journalist

Yes. You won't see very many honest reviews which would contain a lot of negativity. Also- isn't it weird that the Tesla Model 3, a very hotly anticipated vehicle is lacking in any reviews so far? Why? Shouldn't there be tons of reviews for everyone to pore over given that there were hundreds of thousands of reservations placed on this car?



120mm_he #65 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 08:39

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I can only hope that when tesla fails someone sues him for bilking the federal government out of billions.

SpitYoYoMafia #66 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 18:00

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View Postindoctrinated, on Oct 23 2017 - 15:54, said:

Yes. You won't see very many honest reviews which would contain a lot of negativity. Also- isn't it weird that the Tesla Model 3, a very hotly anticipated vehicle is lacking in any reviews so far? Why? Shouldn't there be tons of reviews for everyone to pore over given that there were hundreds of thousands of reservations placed on this car?

 

I would also like to see these "reservations" and people's name on them.

 

Far as I'm concerned most of the populace doesn't have 30k to spend on a car to get them from point A to point B, especially not one with such short mileage 



Klaatu_Nicto #67 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 22:16

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As for electric cars being green?

 

What about the energy required to mine the very rare "rare earth metals" required for "green" technologies and the damage done to the environment mining those rare earth metals?

 

What about the energy required to charge the batteries and the energy required to recycle those batteries.

 

Lastly, to increase mileage all cars, electric and internal combustion, are built as lightly as possible. What that means is if your new car gets in an accident which in the past would have been considered a mild fender bender, there is a good chance modern cars will be considered totaled which means all that energy used to produce it was wasted and more energy had to be used to build the car that replaces your totaled car.

 



indoctrinated #68 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 22:40

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Oct 24 2017 - 13:00, said:

 

I would also like to see these "reservations" and people's name on them.

 

Far as I'm concerned most of the populace doesn't have 30k to spend on a car to get them from point A to point B, especially not one with such short mileage 

https://dailykanban.com/2017/03/model-3-reservation-holder-survey-underlines-teslas-mass-market-challenge/
It does appear that quite a lot of people did reserve the Model 3. Given that most of these guys are "graduating" from mainstream OEM vehicles like Toyota, they're going to be in for a real "treat" when they get their hands on the Model 3.

Daily Kanban

 Model 3 reservation holders polled are more than twice as likely to own a Toyota as any other brand, whereas current Tesla owners are four times as likely to own a BMW than any other brand. Similarly, Model 3 reservation holders area most likely to purchase or lease a Toyota in the next 12 months if a Tesla Model 3 is not available. This appears to be tied to income levels: only 37% of Model 3 reservation holders made over $100,000 in household income in 2015, compared to 63% of BMW owners.

I get the feeling these people just take QDR (Quality, Durability, Reliability) for granted.

Majority of these Model 3s will be financed or leased- I doubt the majority will actually pony up the monies immedietely for the vehicle given their average income levels. Probably 1000-2000$ down, perhaps 300-500 a month for the lease/finance term?
 

View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Oct 24 2017 - 17:16, said:

As for electric cars being green?

 

What about the energy required to mine the very rare "rare earth metals" required for "green" technologies and the damage done to the environment mining those rare earth metals?

 

What about the energy required to charge the batteries and the energy required to recycle those batteries.

 

Lastly, to increase mileage all cars, electric and internal combustion, are built as lightly as possible. What that means is if your new car gets in an accident which in the past would have been considered a mild fender bender, there is a good chance modern cars will be considered totaled which means all that energy used to produce it was wasted and more energy had to be used to build the car that replaces your totaled car.

 

That's another dirty secret- lithium mineral mining causes a lot of environmental damage. Also, how is the electricity being generated to fuel these electric vehicles? When the majority of people drive electric cars, how are we going to expand "the grid" to accomodate the high demand for electricity?



strenfoo #69 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 23:12

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Oct 24 2017 - 11:00, said:

Far as I'm concerned most of the populace doesn't have 30k to spend on a car to get them from point A to point B, especially not one with such short mileage 

 

The average price of a new car sold in the US is over $30k (I don't know the exact number) and around 17 million new cars/trucks were sold in the US last year.  Plenty of people can afford to spend $30k on a new car and plenty of those folks are willing to put up with the "short mileage" (which isn't so short in some new EVs).

 

View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Oct 24 2017 - 15:16, said:

As for electric cars being green?

 

What about the energy required to mine the very rare "rare earth metals" required for "green" technologies and the damage done to the environment mining those rare earth metals?

 

What about the energy required to charge the batteries and the energy required to recycle those batteries.

 

Those are some of the most common things, outside of range and charge time, that folks bring up when arguing against electric vehicles.  There's been lots of research done into whether or not electrics are really greener.  I'm not anywhere near an expert in the field but there are lots of folks who still claim electrics are greener even when taking into account those things.

Klaatu_Nicto #70 Posted Oct 25 2017 - 00:01

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View Poststrenfoo, on Oct 24 2017 - 14:12, said:

 

The average price of a new car sold in the US is over $30k (I don't know the exact number) and around 17 million new cars/trucks were sold in the US last year.  Plenty of people can afford to spend $30k on a new car and plenty of those folks are willing to put up with the "short mileage" (which isn't so short in some new EVs).

 

 

Those are some of the most common things, outside of range and charge time, that folks bring up when arguing against electric vehicles.  There's been lots of research done into whether or not electrics are really greener.  I'm not anywhere near an expert in the field but there are lots of folks who still claim electrics are greener even when taking into account those things.

 

I've read articles that says they are greener and other articles that say they are not greener. I don't know with absolute certainty which side is correct but based on what I've seen from 'greenies'  on other issues that I know more about I lean towards not greener.

SpitYoYoMafia #71 Posted Oct 25 2017 - 01:46

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View Poststrenfoo, on Oct 24 2017 - 14:12, said:

 

The average price of a new car sold in the US is over $30k (I don't know the exact number) and around 17 million new cars/trucks were sold in the US last year.  Plenty of people can afford to spend $30k on a new car and plenty of those folks are willing to put up with the "short mileage" (which isn't so short in some new EVs).

 

 

Those are some of the most common things, outside of range and charge time, that folks bring up when arguing against electric vehicles.  There's been lots of research done into whether or not electrics are really greener.  I'm not anywhere near an expert in the field but there are lots of folks who still claim electrics are greener even when taking into account those things.

 

Wow people are paying 30k+ for a new car?

 

Like what? Just buy a better damn car for cheaper for [edited] sake.



indoctrinated #72 Posted Oct 25 2017 - 02:34

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Oct 24 2017 - 20:46, said:

 

Wow people are paying 30k+ for a new car?

 

Like what? Just buy a better damn car for cheaper for [edited] sake.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/04/100000-pickup-truck-real-dealers-aftermarket-thank/

Block Quote

 In January, Honolulu Ford sold the first new F-Series at over $100,000. It was a Platinum F-250 diesel with $40,000 in aftermarket equipment provided by Dealer Services International (DSI).

There are legit reasons to pay the premium for luxurious vehicles like the Q50, Chrysler 300, Grand Cherokee, Hyundai Genesis, etc etc. Those vehicles have more comfortable rides, much less cabin noise (road and wind noise), more powerful standard motors than economy cars, etc etc.
I still wouldn't bother with most Lexus, BMW, Merc, etc etc models though. Quite overpriced when the options I mentioned are as good as those vehicles for a much lower price.



SpitYoYoMafia #73 Posted Oct 25 2017 - 13:43

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View Postindoctrinated, on Oct 24 2017 - 17:34, said:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/04/100000-pickup-truck-real-dealers-aftermarket-thank/

There are legit reasons to pay the premium for luxurious vehicles like the Q50, Chrysler 300, Grand Cherokee, Hyundai Genesis, etc etc. Those vehicles have more comfortable rides, much less cabin noise (road and wind noise), more powerful standard motors than economy cars, etc etc.
I still wouldn't bother with most Lexus, BMW, Merc, etc etc models though. Quite overpriced when the options I mentioned are as good as those vehicles for a much lower price.

 

My dream car doesn't even cost more than 25 grand, I just want an 1970's eldorado (cadillac) which I am then going to pull the engine out of and replace with a different one (after doing some research and picking one that fits) so I get better MPG, give it a fresh dark purple paint job, probably buy some okay rims and stick some interior neon in it and probably replace the entire interior as well while I'm at it and probably the transmission too.

 

Basically I'm going to find the cheapest on the market that I can find, take everything out and replace it.

 

Pretty sure that won't cost me 30k for that lol. . .

 

Edit: Yea the paint job alone will cost about 5-6~ grand depending on where I get it for the full finish which is more than the engine itself lol


Edited by SpitYoYoMafia, Oct 26 2017 - 22:54.


strenfoo #74 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 00:23

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View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Oct 24 2017 - 17:01, said:

but based on what I've seen from 'greenies'  on other issues that I know more about I lean towards not greener.

 

I could use that same argument to justify leaning more towards them being greener :)

 

View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Oct 24 2017 - 18:46, said:

 

Wow people are paying 30k+ for a new car?

 

Like what? Just buy a better damn car for cheaper for [edited] sake.

 

Of course.  According to the data, most people buying new cars are willing to pay over $30k.  The top 3 best selling vehicles, not just trucks but cars and trucks, in the US last year are all pickup trucks (Ford F-series, Silverado, and Ram).  I have no idea what the average price of those trucks were but you don't have to look very hard at all to find a ton of new pickups on the road that cost over $50k.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if the average price of those trucks was well over $40k.

 

Everybody has their things they value and like to spend their money on.  I could call someone crazy for spending a ton of money on a new, luxury car but there are plenty of things they might call me crazy for buying (e.g. pixel tanks, my various musical instruments that I rarely play anymore, motorcycles).

 

"better damn car for cheaper"... well, that's not always an option depending on your perspective and how you define "better".  For example, if you want a new EV that can go 200+ miles on a single charge, you're going to pay between $35k and $40k not counting tax incentives (which can be huge depending on where you live).  Want 300+ miles on a single charge?  You're paying over $45k.  You could say "just buy a gas car and save money... it's better", well, to the folks who buy EVs, that's not a better option.  I know lots of people who drive EVs and all of them say they'll never buy another gas powered car.


Edited by strenfoo, Oct 26 2017 - 00:24.


indoctrinated #75 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 00:25

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Oct 25 2017 - 08:43, said:

 

My dream car doesn't even cost more than 25 grands, I just want an 1970's eldorado (cadillac) which I am then going to pull the engine out of and replace with a different one (after doing some research and picking one that fits) so I get better MPG, give it a fresh dark purple paint job, probably buy some okay rims and stick some interior neon in it and probably replace the entire interior as well while I'm at it and probably the transmission too.

 

Basically I'm going to find the cheapest on the market that I can find, take everything out and replace it.

 

Pretty sure that won't cost me 30k for that lol. . .

 

Edit: Yea the paint job alone will cost about 5-6~ grand depending on where I get it for the full finish which is more than the engine itself lol

I mentioned in a previous post that I'd rather drive a 1992-1996 Toyota Camry than the majority of new cars on sale. For me all I'd swap out in that car is the motor, transmission and perhaps the steering wheel to a more modern Toyota one. The Toyota 3.5L V6 (2GR-FE) is a pretty nice motor that I'd swap into it. Good power output, decent mileage and very smooth operation. The widespread application of this motor (RAV-4, Camry V6, Sienna minivan, etc etc) also makes it more affordable and easier to find parts for.
GM's pushrod V8s like the LS series and the Generation V ones are pretty decent motors. Very underrated engine series IMO. I suspect the hard part of a motor/transmission swap would be the electronic controls and other electronics associated with the new motor/transmission, not the actual physical mounting/installation.



indoctrinated #76 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 01:05

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View Poststrenfoo, on Oct 25 2017 - 19:23, said:

 

I could use that same argument to justify leaning more towards them being greener :)

 

 

Of course.  According to the data, most people buying new cars are willing to pay over $30k.  The top 3 best selling vehicles, not just trucks but cars and trucks, in the US last year are all pickup trucks (Ford F-series, Silverado, and Ram).  I have no idea what the average price of those trucks were but you don't have to look very hard at all to find a ton of new pickups on the road that cost over $50k.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if the average price of those trucks was well over $40k.

 

Everybody has their things they value and like to spend their money on.  I could call someone crazy for spending a ton of money on a new, luxury car but there are plenty of things they might call me crazy for buying (e.g. pixel tanks, my various musical instruments that I rarely play anymore, motorcycles).

 

"better damn car for cheaper"... well, that's not always an option depending on your perspective and how you define "better".  For example, if you want a new EV that can go 200+ miles on a single charge, you're going to pay between $35k and $40k not counting tax incentives (which can be huge depending on where you live).  Want 300+ miles on a single charge?  You're paying over $45k.  You could say "just buy a gas car and save money... it's better", well, to the folks who buy EVs, that's not a better option.  I know lots of people who drive EVs and all of them say they'll never buy another gas powered car.

If I pay 30,000+ for a car it'd better be a good quality vehicle. Tesla is at the absolute bottom of the pile with regards to that.
Tesla is the only automaker I've seen to actually let a fatally defective car leave the factory-  see the cracked pillar in the OP. What kind of OEM asks owners to sign an NDA to receive repairs on defective suspension components? This kind of smug reply to an investigation into this practice really pisses me off:

Block Quote

 

 We don’t know if Mr. Niedermeyer’s motivation is simply to set a world record for axe-grinding or whether he or his associates have something financial to gain by negatively affecting Tesla’s stock price, but it is important to highlight that there are several billion dollars in short sale bets against Tesla. This means that there is a strong financial incentive to greatly amplify minor issues and to create false issues from whole cloth.


 



120mm_he #77 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 21:44

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For $30k I could buy a used miata and turn it into a v8 monster ALONG with buying a nice used luxury car AND probably enough left over for a good used full sized pickup. Or buy a tesla. Yeah..

Klaatu_Nicto #78 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 22:33

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View Post120mm_he, on Oct 26 2017 - 12:44, said:

For $30k I could buy a used miata and turn it into a v8 monster ALONG with buying a nice used luxury car AND probably enough left over for a good used full sized pickup. Or buy a tesla. Yeah..

 

Give it time and you may be able to buy the Miata, luxury car, pickup and Tesla for under $30K.

 

"There’s a section of the auto-loan market -- known in industry parlance as deep subprime -- where delinquency rates have ticked up to levels last seen in 2007, according to data compiled by credit reporting bureau Equifax."



SpitYoYoMafia #79 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 22:56

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View Poststrenfoo, on Oct 25 2017 - 15:23, said:

 

I could use that same argument to justify leaning more towards them being greener :)

 

 

Of course.  According to the data, most people buying new cars are willing to pay over $30k.  The top 3 best selling vehicles, not just trucks but cars and trucks, in the US last year are all pickup trucks (Ford F-series, Silverado, and Ram).  I have no idea what the average price of those trucks were but you don't have to look very hard at all to find a ton of new pickups on the road that cost over $50k.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if the average price of those trucks was well over $40k.

 

Everybody has their things they value and like to spend their money on.  I could call someone crazy for spending a ton of money on a new, luxury car but there are plenty of things they might call me crazy for buying (e.g. pixel tanks, my various musical instruments that I rarely play anymore, motorcycles).

 

"better damn car for cheaper"... well, that's not always an option depending on your perspective and how you define "better".  For example, if you want a new EV that can go 200+ miles on a single charge, you're going to pay between $35k and $40k not counting tax incentives (which can be huge depending on where you live).  Want 300+ miles on a single charge?  You're paying over $45k.  You could say "just buy a gas car and save money... it's better", well, to the folks who buy EVs, that's not a better option.  I know lots of people who drive EVs and all of them say they'll never buy another gas powered car.

 

But you don't have to buy an EV. You do have to buy a car, but not an EV.

SpitYoYoMafia #80 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 22:56

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View Post120mm_he, on Oct 26 2017 - 12:44, said:

For $30k I could buy a used miata and turn it into a v8 monster ALONG with buying a nice used luxury car AND probably enough left over for a good used full sized pickup. Or buy a tesla. Yeah..

 

^

 

It's like people have forgotten that they can fix up old cars to be as good as new cars or something. . .






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