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Matchmaking broken fair play

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8_Hussars #21 Posted Oct 22 2017 - 20:15

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View PostMichael_Cochrane_2017, on Oct 22 2017 - 11:43, said:

 

I challenge the "random" comment...if battles were truly random then the law of averages would mean I should spawn on various maps equally or close enough. Funny though, 9/10 times I spawn at the same end/side over and over and over again. In addition, the majority of battles now are encounter vs standard...I bet I've only played 10 standard battles in the last 100. 

For example: Murovanka; without fail, I've spawned on the north side ONCE in the past week vs 50 or more on the south.

Random? lol...NFW.

I read that they revamped the "roles" of various tanks in battles...I see the old adage applies: tier iv tier v and tier vi are merely easy kills, points for tier's vii and viii.....

 

The MM builds teams.  There are two different processes at work here, so don't confuse them (As for the OP the two battles sited are perfectly matched for tier and type and that is all MM is supposed to do).  The Map rotation process throws in the map and is only pseudo-random.  The maps come out of a rotating pool which in itself is a sub-set of all maps and each map has different weighting (or chance to appear).  Understanding, that Encounter, Assault, and Grand Battle are not technically "modes" but are maps and randomly appear in the map pool like any other map.  Therefore you may see Malinovka Encounter more often over a session because the Malinovka Standard map is not currently in the pool.

 

When I have been curious I have checked my map occurrence data uploaded to vBaddict, and over long stretches correlates nicely to the overall appearance statistics.    



CTDan #22 Posted Oct 22 2017 - 23:13

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Hey...just do a historical search on me in WotLabs or your favorite stat tracking site.  It's definitely not perceptual for me.  I kind of peaked around a WN8 of 676 or 677.  Even that was a slow albeit steady climb.  Now, since around 9.18., the trend is going the other way, as is my $$ for WG.

 

In my opinion, the MM should make a team balanced as close to 50/50 as possible.  THEN let the players influence the outcome of that kind of game.

 

I guess one thing I could do is just "tank" this account and start over.  I do believe after 17k games I've learned something.  So, I'd probably get a higher WN8 earlier and I guess that depending on that stat, RNG is effected too.

 

With 17k games, it will take, basically forever to make any meaningful change.

 

I've played WOT long enough to see trends.  Total play at any given time has dropped dramatically. Even in my doldrums, this kills me because I really love this game, I try to play every day.   I'll play a few games and get a feel for the kind of day it is.  If I lose a bunch of games early, I'll quit and come back later.  Sometimes that makes a difference, but only slightly.

 

I guess I'm just sick of being on that perpetual losing side.  I can only contribute what I can.  Do I always do my share?  Nope....as I said, I'm an admitted noob.  I'd love to get better, but see absolutely no avenue to improve.  Even when I rage quit for the day, I'll go over to youtube and watch vids by QB, Circon, Lemming Rush and Sevens.  I've even asked them for help, but those requests go unanswered.

 

So, If I do seem down, it's not for lack of trying.  It's a feeling of helplessness.  

 

Anyway...my soap box vent for the day.  Thanks that offered helpful suggestions, and to the trolls (I guess you can each figure where you fit!), thanks for nothing.

 

Cheers.



Michael_Cochrane_2017 #23 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 10:16

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View PostMudman24, on Oct 22 2017 - 12:48, said:

I’m sure you track this data and have replays to prove you spawn 50:1 on the south side of the map. Making up numbers and exaggerating doesn’t prove anything. 

 

I don't have to prove anything, as with the unfair matchmaking, I made notes when challenged and was proved correct.....
I can count on 1 hand the number of times I spawned on the north side of Provohovka (or however it is spelled), Mountain Pass, and Himmseldorf....(now 50:1 is an estimate because I didn't actually take the time to count) but as I said, if it is any more than 50/50, it aint random......

Michael_Cochrane_2017 #24 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 10:19

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View Post8_Hussars, on Oct 22 2017 - 13:15, said:

 

The MM builds teams.  There are two different processes at work here, so don't confuse them (As for the OP the two battles sited are perfectly matched for tier and type and that is all MM is supposed to do).  The Map rotation process throws in the map and is only pseudo-random.  The maps come out of a rotating pool which in itself is a sub-set of all maps and each map has different weighting (or chance to appear).  Understanding, that Encounter, Assault, and Grand Battle are not technically "modes" but are maps and randomly appear in the map pool like any other map.  Therefore you may see Malinovka Encounter more often over a session because the Malinovka Standard map is not currently in the pool.

 

When I have been curious I have checked my map occurrence data uploaded to vBaddict, and over long stretches correlates nicely to the overall appearance statistics.    

 

You're talking about the map itself, I'm talking about the spawn point.....if it truly were "random" then I should spawn 50/50 on either side...but I don't.....I can't even remember the last time I spawned on the north side of Himmelsdorf and just tonight was the first time in Murovanka in days......(yet I've spawned countless times on the sound side). And don't get me started on Mines where the North spawn has a definite advantage when it comes to taking the hill......I think I've spawned North side twice in the past week?

CTDan #25 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 14:38

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I was going to respond....but, no real point.  Those that don't believe will never be convinced, so, why bother.

frontflip2cool #26 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 14:52

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View PostCTDan, on Oct 22 2017 - 18:46, said:

So, I've been hearing both sides of the issue of how the Match Maker is performing.  I'm going to start using this forum post as a way to track the "fairness" of the Match Maker.

 

So, firstly, let me explain my madness as it relates to my thought process as it pertains to how I think a game is going to go.  I admit, doesn't always go the way I'd expect, but, for the most part, I'm pretty on.

 

So, I do use XVM, but only for getting an idea of hard I have to work to carry, and even then, I'll know very early on, if we have a snowball's chance in hell to win.

 

I'll firstly just look at the number of players on each team to see how many players with WN8 rates in 4 digits.  Which ever team has the most, gets a +1.

Then, I compare the number of games a player has on each team.  I use a limiter of 5k games and less.  Whoever has the least gets another +1

If arty is present in a game, I'll also compare their WN8 ratings.  I'll award an +1 to which ever team seems to have the higher WN8 rating for Arty.

Lastly, I'll check the number of players with win percentages in the red.  Again, which ever team has the least gets a +1.

 

Of course, there will be ties, in which case no one gets that point.  And also, I might award a "special" if one team has a Unicum or something like that.  Totally subjective, but for my purposes, it works.

 

So, here's a screen shot of the 1st of two games I played this morning (back to back with the same tank):

 

https://ibb.co/iDawo6

 

Sorry, couldn't get the forum to accept the pic link but, hopefully this will suffice.

 

And here's the 2nd link:

 

https://ibb.co/h5JMMR

 

 

So PLEASE tell me how these are anywhere near "fair and balanced" games.  I recall reading something in the forums about how the MM will "try" to ensure that no two games in a row will be total mismatches.  WRONG!!

 

And WG is wondering why they get so many complaints about the MM???

 

Appreciate your thoughts!

 

Of, and fyi, both games were blow outs and losses.

 

what I have found is whatever team has the most south american players is the team that wins the battle.

 



Marchosia #27 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 17:13

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Best advise i've every received:

Step one:  Turn off XVM colors and 'in match' stats.

Step two:  Attempt to analyze red team.

Step three:  Look at minimap.

Step four:  An almost dead tank is not dead.

Step five:  Send red team back to garage.

 

There are random acts of teamwork - but never depend on it. 



JA_Pinkerton #28 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 17:42

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View PostCTDan, on Oct 22 2017 - 13:11, said:

All I can tell you is I played 4 more games with this tank and using my "arbitrary" process, I lost 3 of the 4 games, as my prophetic process predicted.

 

First, you fail at reading:  WG has never said they will use player skills to balance the teams.  Then you fail at math, thinking you can draw a useful conclusion from 4 data points.

JA_Pinkerton #29 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 17:46

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View PostCTDan, on Oct 22 2017 - 17:13, said:

In my opinion, the MM should make a team balanced as close to 50/50 as possible.  THEN let the players influence the outcome of that kind of game.

 

I guess one thing I could do is just "tank" this account and start over.  I do believe after 17k games I've learned something.  So, I'd probably get a higher WN8 earlier and I guess that depending on that stat, RNG is effected too.

 

With 17k games, it will take, basically forever to make any meaningful change.

 

What you propose is called a skill-based match maker (SBMM for short) and is available, in-game as Ranked battles (which uses PR, not WN8). 

 

Secondly, don't throw away your account.  Having a bad overall WN8 is known as WN8 camo and a Good Thing.  Just get your recent WN8 and WR up to good levels.

 

Lastly, remember that WN8 and RNG are completely unrelated.



gamagrass #30 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 18:35

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nothing is wrong with the MM.  It the individual that have no fuc$ing idea what they are doing.

Markd73 #31 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 18:55

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View PostCTDan, on Oct 22 2017 - 18:11, said:

As I expected...it's all my fault.

 

Yes as it should be. We all get the same MM/team mates over enough games.

 

All I can tell you is I played 4 more games with this tank and using my "arbitrary" process, I lost 3 of the 4 games, as my prophetic process predicted. 

 

Sample size is way too small to draw any definitive conclusions.

 

 

No real reason to get upset any more, as I know that there's no way to win most of those games.  I'll attempt to be in the top 5 of damage doled out, but it won't matter.

 

That is not how you win more games. Focus on early damage and not farming useless damage at the end. Start the snowball.

 

But then again, what do I know I'm an admitted noob.

 

Exactly. There is always room for improvement. The first step is to admit you have a problem

 

My other advice is to get rid of XVM and treat every enemy like a purple and all your own team as solid reds.



Markd73 #32 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 19:01

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View PostMichael_Cochrane_2017, on Oct 22 2017 - 18:43, said:

 

I challenge the "random" comment...if battles were truly random then the law of averages would mean I should spawn on various maps equally or close enough. Funny though, 9/10 times I spawn at the same end/side over and over and over again. In addition, the majority of battles now are encounter vs standard...I bet I've only played 10 standard battles in the last 100. 

For example: Murovanka; without fail, I've spawned on the north side ONCE in the past week vs 50 or more on the south.

Random? lol...NFW.

I read that they revamped the "roles" of various tanks in battles...I see the old adage applies: tier iv tier v and tier vi are merely easy kills, points for tier's vii and viii.....

 

View PostMichael_Cochrane_2017, on Oct 24 2017 - 09:16, said:

 

I don't have to prove anything, as with the unfair matchmaking, I made notes when challenged and was proved correct.....
I can count on 1 hand the number of times I spawned on the north side of Provohovka (or however it is spelled), Mountain Pass, and Himmseldorf....(now 50:1 is an estimate because I didn't actually take the time to count) but as I said, if it is any more than 50/50, it aint random......

 

You kind of do have to prove it. Look up the concept of Burden of Proof.

https://en.wikipedia...oof_(philosophy)

 

You are making a specific claim in your post so it is up to you to provide the objective evidence to said claim, or have your argument dismissed.



Tolos #33 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 19:03

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View PostCTDan, on Oct 24 2017 - 13:38, said:

I was going to respond....but, no real point.  Those that don't believe will never be convinced, so, why bother.

 

Oh the irony...

Roggg2 #34 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 19:05

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Random teams are the epitome of fair.  Balancing by skill gives bad players better teams than they deserve, and gives good players worse teams than they deserve.  Your premise is just plain wrong.

ShaolinWombat #35 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 19:09

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All of the recent balance changes to the matchmaking has had an unintended consequence.  Basically with the last two patches WGing has done a good job balancing the tank composition for each match.  The only area I think still needs to be addressed with composition is splitting TDs into subcategories similar to Heavies.  But as WGing has removed the randomness from the tier spread and tank composition the one remaining random variables has gained importantance.

Basically team skill is still random and as such fluctuations wildly.  I use XVM so Im using WN8 ver28(?) to track the team skill.  I basically just take the sum of the each team and compare to get a percentage difference and jot it down.  Then after the match I note who won.

Typically teams are within +/- 30% of each other.   If a team has a 20+% advantage they win about 85% of the time.  10-20 about 60%. And within 10% it was about 50%.  I was seeing these 20+% games about 30% of the time.  

Note I’m a fairly average player (980 wn8, bit more recently). So generally I don’t have a major effect on my teams total.   The large disparities come from red or green+ clusters on one side or the other.   So the better or worse you are the more 20+% games you will be in and the better worse your overall win% will be.

This is all fairly logically.  

Roggg2 #36 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 19:10

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View PostCTDan, on Oct 22 2017 - 17:13, said:

 

I guess I'm just sick of being on that perpetual losing side.  I can only contribute what I can.  Do I always do my share?  Nope....as I said, I'm an admitted noob.  I'd love to get better, but see absolutely no avenue to improve. 

 

Why not focus on that then instead of complaining that to be fair, MM should gift you better team mates?  Not meaning this to be rude.  Join a training clan that has better players you can platoon with and learn from.  Or even just befriend a decent training clan, and hang out in their TS from time to time so you can get some feedback.  It's the fastest path to growth.

ShaolinWombat #37 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 19:17

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I forgot one point.  WGing also needs to actually address the number of bots in the game.  I would guess one team has a bot in 75% of matches.  They aren’t very difficult to spot and tend to put one of the teams in a 14 to 15 hole up front.   This can be especially bad if one of you top tier tanks is a bot.

Tolos #38 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 22:38

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View PostShaolinWombat, on Oct 24 2017 - 18:17, said:

I forgot one point. WGing also needs to actually address the number of bots in the game. I would guess one team has a bot in 75% of matches. They aren’t very difficult to spot and tend to put one of the teams in a 14 to 15 hole up front. This can be especially bad if one of you top tier tanks is a bot.

 

The sad part is a lot of those probably arnt even bots.

Liberty75 #39 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 23:45

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View PostCTDan, on Oct 22 2017 - 12:46, said:

Appreciate your thoughts!

 

The MM introduced in the 9.18 Update was an overall step back for the game. It massively reduced the variety in our matches, and it created an unbalanced experience between top, middle, and bottom tier matches (when in the previous system, it was roughly even). Now we get a predictable experience and we are usually at the bottom of the pack. Some people have the perception that more bottom tier matches with a guaranteed set of 7 tanks at the bottom is better, but they are misinformed. The previous system gave a good spread of tanks in matches and it was only a handful (about 6%) that were very challenging for weak players (average to good players were usually fine in any match). That handful of games no where near justifies a 50% rate of bottom tier matches now, or 60% if you include the 5/10 matches. This system killed the nice balance in top, middle, and bottom tier matches we previously had, not to mention the variety in the make-up of the teams that these strict templates have destroyed. So in that regard, the new MM is a failure.

 

As for skill, WG has stated that they will not have a skill based MM and there is very little support for one even if they had the idea on the back burner.

 

If you want to really do a study, record your position in matches (top, top in 5/10, middle, same tier, bottom 5/10, and bottom) and then also record your wins and losses at those levels. I'm betting you will find that your win rate is higher the higher the tier you are. So if you want to increase your win rate despite the skill of the teams, you are better off being higher in tier level and you should be advocating for a return to a more random MM system, as we previously had, to optimize your chances for controlling your win rate fate.



Mudman24 #40 Posted Oct 24 2017 - 23:53

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View PostTolos, on Oct 24 2017 - 12:03, said:

 

Oh the irony...

Holy Tolos! 







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