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spotting completely hidden tanks


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cheapbooks #1 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 14:11

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I have played over 30,000 games and have never seen anything like this. This video will show you that it is possible to spot enemy tanks even if they are completely hidden, and outside of your proximity spotting range. I will spot 3 tanks (a T10, RU251, and WT). Notice how the WT is 100% hidden behind the bushes even though I was able to spot him.



Lesser_Spotted_Panzer #2 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 14:23

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Glad you mention this. I have noticed some strange spotting things going on recently, but I have not been able to prove it nor define exactly what the problem is.

yabojabo #3 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 14:36

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The T-10 and the Ru were both poking thru the bushes so nothing surprising there.  But the WT was completely behind the bush when you spotted him.  Maybe he doesn't have a camo crew.  The WT doesn't have great camo to start with so there's that.

 

It's a little odd but, IMO, really nothing more than the usual spotting wonkiness.



SuperTankDriver #4 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 14:55

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The RU 251 spot is nothing special. He wasn't behind cover, moving in the open.

T-10 wasn't in the bush aswell. His front end and the gun were sticking out quite a lot. 

 

WT case is pretty interesting, but I'm guessing he either move just a little bit to deactivate his camo net, thus allowing him to be spotted by you.

Alternatively, he fired his gun and we didn't see the shot, which is why he got lit up like that.



QuicksilverJPR #5 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 15:01

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View PostSuperTankDriver, on Oct 26 2017 - 08:55, said:

The RU 251 spot is nothing special. He wasn't behind cover, moving in the open.

T-10 wasn't in the bush aswell. His front end and the gun were sticking out quite a lot. 

 

WT case is pretty interesting, but I'm guessing he either move just a little bit to deactivate his camo net, thus allowing him to be spotted by you.

Alternatively, he fired his gun and we didn't see the shot, which is why he got lit up like that.

 

I thought the gun itself was NOT a spotting point.

 

Either way, the T10 was NOT in concealment.  The front part of the tank and tracks were in the open.  Same thing happened with the RU251.  The WT was spotted b/c it didn't have enough camo to overcome the movement (after all, it's camo is lower when moving) factor, despite the fact that it was behind bushes.  And those particular bushes are not heavy/dense anyway.  They're medium concealment at best.


Edited by QuicksilverJPR, Oct 26 2017 - 15:06.


Pipinghot #6 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 15:19

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View PostQuicksilverJPR, on Oct 26 2017 - 09:01, said:

I thought the gun itself was NOT a spotting point.

Yes, it always has been, afaik

http://wiki.wargamin...tting_Mechanics

 

If you compare the red picture to the blue picture you'll notice that you cannot use your gun barrel to spot other tanks, but it can get you spotted even when the entire rest of your tank is behind cover. Even if your barrel is the only part of your tank poking out, they can use the midpoint (approximately) of your barrel to spot you.


Edited by Pipinghot, Oct 27 2017 - 16:14.


Pipinghot #7 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 15:20

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View Postcheapbooks, on Oct 26 2017 - 08:11, said:

I have played over 30,000 games and have never seen anything like this.

And you've apparently never seen anything like this either.

http://wiki.wargamin...attle_Mechanics

 



Gurdy2383 #8 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 15:33

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View PostPipinghot, on Oct 26 2017 - 07:19, said:

Yes, it always has been, afaik

http://wiki.wargamin...tting_Mechanics

 

If you compare the red picture to the blue picture you'll notice that you can't use your gun barrel to spot other tanks, but it can get you spotted even when the entire rest of your tank is behind cover. Even if your barrel is the only part of your tank poking out, they can use the midpoint (approximately) of your barrel to spot you.

 

The spotting point on the barrel is actually where it comes out of the mantlet. You can't be spotted by your cannon alone.

 

OP, your view range would have been high enough to counteract the WT's camo plus the camo he was getting from cover. Perhaps the WT had an unskilled crew with no camo net so your effective view range was enough to see him through the bush. I didn't watch the replay to see how far away the WT was, but here's an example of how spotting mechanics work from the wiki:

 

Let's look at an example to see how it all comes together.

Say our spotting target has a baseCamo coefficient of 25% or 0.25 while standing still and 15% or 0.15 while moving the hull. The camoAtShot factor is 25% or 0.25 as well. The entire crew of 5 has 100% Camouflage skill level and the Commander has 100% primary skill level. Improved Ventilation equipment is installed. Our tank is sitting completely inside of a dense bush and has not been moving for more than 3 seconds.

The effective camouflage skill is:

(100 + 5 + (100 + 5 + (100 + 5) * 0.1) * 4) / 5 = 113.4

Should this calculation be confusing to you, remember that you need to factor in both the bonus from Improved Ventilation equipment as well as the Commander bonus. It would, however, be understandable if the calculation above still seems confusing, because there's no way to tell what those figures relate to unless you spend some minutes figuring out the equation. To make things easier for you, here's the above numbers explained:

(CommanderSkill + VentBonus + (CrewSkill + VentBonus + (CommanderSkill + VentBonus) * 0.1) * NumberOfNonCommanderCrewMembers)) / TotalNumberOfCrewMembersIncludingCommander = X

Now we can calculate the camouflage factor using the value for the effective camouflage factor:

0.25 * (0.00375 * 113.4 + 0.5) + 0.64 = 0.8713125 (87.13%)

As soon as our tank starts moving out of the bush, the camouflage factor is as follows:

0.15 * (0.00375 * 113.4 + 0.5) = 0.1387875 (13.88%)

Now to get a complete spotting example, let's add an example spotter with an effective view range of 400m. Spotting range is calculated as follows:

First example: 400 - (400 - 50) * 0.87140625 = 95.01m spotting range.

Second example: 400 - (400 - 50) * 0.1387875 = 351.42m spotting range.



QuicksilverJPR #9 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 21:21

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View PostPipinghot, on Oct 26 2017 - 09:19, said:

Yes, it always has been, afaik

http://wiki.wargamin...tting_Mechanics

 

If you compare the red picture to the blue picture you'll notice that you can't use your gun barrel to spot other tanks, but it can get you spotted even when the entire rest of your tank is behind cover. Even if your barrel is the only part of your tank poking out, they can use the midpoint (approximately) of your barrel to spot you.

 

The mantlet is the spot that determines concealed/not concealed...not the gun barrel itself.

 

So, read up!



cheapbooks #10 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 11:11

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The game probably uses bounding boxes for bushes, which is more efficient, so the T10 and RU251 should have been fully concealed.

 

I also drove outside of the bush with my front node and was not spotted by anyone.

 

The fact that the T10 was spotted, disappeared, and was spotted again, without moving, proves that there is something going on outside of what people normally expect from the game.



Pipinghot #11 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 16:19

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View PostGurdy2383, on Oct 26 2017 - 09:33, said:

View PostPipinghot, on Oct 26 2017 - 07:19, said:

Yes, it always has been, afaik

http://wiki.wargamin...tting_Mechanics

 

If you compare the red picture to the blue picture you'll notice that you can't use your gun barrel to spot other tanks, but it can get you spotted even when the entire rest of your tank is behind cover. Even if your barrel is the only part of your tank poking out, they can use the midpoint (approximately) of your barrel to spot you.

 

The spotting point on the barrel is actually where it comes out of the mantlet. You can't be spotted by your cannon alone.

Haha you know I just realized that its' the illustration that's wrong, and has been all this time.

 

In the top picture the forward checkpoint is clearly on the front fender of the tank, but in the bottom picture they've made it appear that the checkpoint is on the barrel. Ahh the joys of bad illustrations, in that top-down view the checkpoint that is on the midpoint of the barrel should actually be on the front of the vehicle.

 


Edited by Pipinghot, Oct 27 2017 - 16:21.


Red_Ensign #12 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 16:26

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geez what kind of potato are you playing on, op?  looks like you have the graphics options dialed down to zero and you still have bad fps.  *shudders*

QuicksilverJPR #13 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 18:49

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View PostPipinghot, on Oct 27 2017 - 10:19, said:

Haha you know I just realized that its' the illustration that's wrong, and has been all this time.

 

In the top picture the forward checkpoint is clearly on the front fender of the tank, but in the bottom picture they've made it appear that the checkpoint is on the barrel. Ahh the joys of bad illustrations, in that top-down view the checkpoint that is on the midpoint of the barrel should actually be on the front of the vehicle.

 

 

It's easy to mistake one point for another when they "draw" like that...




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