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[Supertest] Soviet TD Changes


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pickpocket293 #21 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 23:03

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View PostMikosah, on Oct 26 2017 - 13:55, said:

Before we even begin to discuss individual vehicle performance, the much larger question has to be asked: Why?

What is the point of these recent series of replacements? Exactly which problem is WG trying to solve? 

 

All the evidence seems to point in the direction that WG is now needlessly obsessed with making each tank line stay consistent. Each tank has to serve exactly the same role and playstyle as its predecessor. And again, I have to ask why. How is this helpful? Which problem does it solve? And whatever that is, is it worth all the commotion in reshuffling the lines and otherwise making the replacements so generic? Probably not. All this effort would have been better spent elsewhere.

 

To be the devil's advocate here, it seems that the idea is that players would work their way up the line and have a hard time adjusting to the radically different play styles of tanks in the same lines as they moved up tiers. For instance, the old Conqueror and FV215b played completely differently. The Foch 155 was a pain to balance (Foch B balance is still questionable but let's not go there now) and the tier 8 and 9 got autoloaders. I don't disagree with this ideology-- A line of tanks should be researched by one another because they're similar. I see why they're making the Badger the top of the turretless TD line for the brits. That makes sense. 

 

What I don't understand is this TD line change as well as the Obj 416 line change-- it seems odd that with the 416 you still go from rear-turret, rear-turret to mid-turret (EDIT: and with proposed changes you'd go from tier 7 rear turret to tier 8 rear turret to tier 9 mid turret to tier 10 mid turret) so the original problem still exists. For this TD line change the line was a little inconsistent, but only really at the tier 9. The others all play similarly. If the line is unpopular then buff it or something, but I don't like the proposed changes I see.

 


Edited by pickpocket293, Oct 26 2017 - 23:05.


Gunadie #22 Posted Oct 26 2017 - 23:04

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View PostCanadian_Reaper, on Oct 26 2017 - 13:40, said:

Who's going to grind a 750 Alpha TD with .45 accuracy? Isn't .36 the worst accuracy in game for a T10 TD? And a 21 second reload?

I get that these are (hopefully) placeholder values, but changing the accurate fast firing low alpha TD line to (by far) the most inaccurate and low DPM TD line seems.... odd.

 

The whole change-over is mind boggling!

They give the French, Brit and German (x2) new replacement tier 10's with the players keeping the existing ones but

because they are an "underplayed" line WG drops them all down a tier and at the same time makes them all undesirable

with ridiculous DPM nerfs, horrendous aim and very little redeeming qualities that make them playable.

Looks to me like a wholesale line NERF, not a playability buff !

Just because there is no money in it, doesn't mean that you shouldn't put the effort into making them desirable as tech tree tanks.

They were already borderline trerribad, what you are proposing is making things worse, not better!

What are you doing???



HowitzerBlitzer #23 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 00:19

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Was going to go for the tier 10 because it was unique, but it looks like I have one less tank line to go down. Finally get my garage slot back, and the credits will be useful.

Mikosah #24 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 00:29

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View Postpickpocket293, on Oct 26 2017 - 16:03, said:

 

To be the devil's advocate here, it seems that the idea is that players would work their way up the line and have a hard time adjusting to the radically different play styles of tanks in the same lines as they moved up tiers. For instance, the old Conqueror and FV215b played completely differently.

 

Yes, they did play differently, but that's sort of the point. Who wants to play the same tank again, and again, and again....? Maybe some of the slower players might have trouble realizing that different tanks should be played differently, but that confusion is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the process of learning the game itself. Learning how to analyze a vehicle's performance stats and figure out how to play a tank in light of it is a skill that's completely neglected even in the new tutorial. Not helped by some stats (movement dispersion, terrain resistance, etc) aren't even shown in the game client.

Firemoth #25 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 01:03

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if only there was some kind of other 560 alpha, 270~pen TD with excellent gun handling, amazing DPM, good view range and armor to compare the 263 too. oh wait, its the JT i sure hope these are all placeholder stats, cause at the moment the 263 is horrible when compared to my beloved JT.

 

on the 268v4. when you say 'excellent armor', are you including the rangefinder weakspot thats going to be 150mm on the roof of the tank which everyone and their brother will see coming?

 

also, if you are changing the line to make more sense, the entire line changes make no sense at all. you go from fast firing mobility tanks with horrible armor (ie, sniper tanks) at tier 7/8 to an armored behemoth at tier 9 with good mobility and firepower (confusingly bad VR as well), then onto a slow firing 750 brawler at tier 10.

 

on the upside i think moving the 101 and 122-54 down a tier and nerfing the DPM was a good idea. the 122-54 particularly never felt like a average tier 9 when you can drive the T-10 with the same gun, a small sacrifice in mobility, camo and DPM but gain a turret and more HP

 

View PostCabbageMechanic, on Oct 27 2017 - 04:40, said:

Next up for Supertest: big changes to the lesser-used Soviet TD Branch.

 

 

finally, they are lesser used because you have tier 7/8/9 which are all high skill floor tanks that rely on camo and sniping to survive, none of which they can do well in world of corridors and cities. when you can actually play to their strengths, they are not bad tanks.

 

AND they are easily overshadowed by the much more user friendly SU152/ISU152/OBJ704 on the other line.

 

 

 


Edited by Firemoth, Oct 27 2017 - 01:33.


Gunadie #26 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 01:11

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View PostMikosah, on Oct 26 2017 - 15:29, said:

 

Yes, they did play differently, but that's sort of the point. Who wants to play the same tank again, and again, and again....? Maybe some of the slower players might have trouble realizing that different tanks should be played differently, but that confusion is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the process of learning the game itself. Learning how to analyze a vehicle's performance stats and figure out how to play a tank in light of it is a skill that's completely neglected even in the new tutorial. Not helped by some stats (movement dispersion, terrain resistance, etc) aren't even shown in the game client.

 

I believe WG Dev have not or cannot understand that the unique and different features from tank to tank is what makes this game FUN

But they are hell bent on making everything fit into this mold and taking away any individuality of the maps as well as the tanks.

Corridor and bowl maps with channeled lanes and directed pathways to engage each other is bad for the game , lacks enjoyment and becomes tedious after a short while!

Hopefully someone in War Gaming management will eventually figure out that that there is a big difference between DARK, MILK , SEMI-SWEET and BAKERS chocolate.

What they are doing is taking away the first three and giving us BAKERS ...chocolate with the sugar isn't very tasty War Gaming!!



VillainousButler #27 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 01:24

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View PostDemonic_Angel_of_Death, on Oct 26 2017 - 09:45, said:

They took a tier 10 TD that was actually different by not having the typical 750 alpha gun, and moved it down and replaced it with a generic alpha gun.

It's like what they did with the tier 6 light tanks all over again... You get a 75mm, and you get a 75mm, you all get 75mm's in "different flavors"... :sceptic:

 

I got called out for calling them "stale"... They are man, I'm not trying to be rude about it either, it is what it is and that is the nicest way I can put it... There are 7 (8 If you include WT Auf E-100 that had the 150mm) tier 10 TD's with 750 alpha guns, we don't need an 8th (9th). It's been done before, it's been done entirely too much before actually, and this just isn't even dynamic gameplay anymore, this is static "Derp people for 750 all day everyday" gameplay. Which gets old...

 

And I'm just going to point out... In clan wars our clan would take a current 263 over a 268 anyday as if we wanted a 750 alpha derp TD there are better ones for that (T110E3)... The 263 has a place for being accurate and having DPM, it's a in-between TD between a Strv 103B and a typical 750 TD...

 

I rarely see Obj. 268's in battle anymore either, lots of 704's, but no 268's... It's more rare than the 263 because it is frankly still pretty bad...

 

So I don't know where the whole:

 

Came from, but just off the top of my head the 268 branch's end-tier tank is the lesser used...

 

You hit it right on the nose there.

 I hardly ever run my 268 anymore, purely because all of the other tier 10 TDs can easily outclass it.

 

Even the 704, as iconic as it is with that BL-10, is mediocre nowadays due to power creep.


Edited by VillainousButler, Oct 27 2017 - 01:25.


_Schneller_Heinz_ #28 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 01:47

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View PostVillainousButler, on Oct 27 2017 - 01:24, said:

 

You hit it right on the nose there.

 I hardly ever run my 268 anymore, purely because all of the other tier 10 TDs can easily outclass it.

 

Even the 704, as iconic as it is with that BL-10, is mediocre nowadays due to power creep.

 

I sold my 268 a little over two years ago after wargaming nerved the living crap out of it.

 



GaussDeath #29 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 05:17

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I disagree with these changes. 

The upper tank line has speed (for a russian TD), accuracy, and DPM. You are going to remove a couple of the major hallmarks (accuracy and dpm) of the line just to give it a bigger gun and some armor?
Please, don't.
Then there will really be no reason to play it as there will not be enough difference between this line and the main russian Obj 268 line. 

 

Yes it is played less often because the playstyle is something most people don't like. But for those of us that want something more than a slow TD with a big boomstick the line works great as is. If you need to buff them a bit, just give them slightly better gun depression (-5 for those with less than -5). 

 



Avalon304 #30 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 07:04

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So...I thought one of the things the Devs were trying to make all the lines play similarly... if so, why is the SU-122-54 being kept? Its the only non-rearcasemate TD in the line still...

 

More over... why are we getting another 750 alpha TD gun at tier 10. We need less of those, not more. Can we stop making the game so much more samey? This line was a high-DPM high mobility but inflexible TD line. It was perfect for assault gunning... why are we just getting more slowed down derpy TDs? Can we please stop? The Object 263 was never the issue with this line... its all the other tanks in it.

 

Please... stop making such poorly thought out changes, WG... its really bad for the game...



Sturm_Teufel #31 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 07:54

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So, some of the staff at WG decided they needed to break the game more and make more tanks less unique?:facepalm: (RIP VK28.01, AMX ELC, 59-16, SP1C, T37, M41 Bulldog....)

You know, you can't fix stupid. Maybe they should stop adding stupid.



Noivy #32 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 08:03

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Keep your hands off the Object 263. It's one of the most unique tier 10s with its fast DPM play style and is perfectly balanced within the metagame. The tier change and the introduction of yet another bloody imaginary tank to take its place is COMPLETELY unjustified. Killing the accuracy values of a line whose hallmark IS said accuracy something I honestly can't begin to imagine the sheer amount of WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT. Improve the bloody existing line by increasing its strengths and not completely bloody overhauling it. Don't take the positive feedback from the foch line change and think it's going to repeat every time a new overhaul is approved. I'm already miffed about the Object 416's proposed removal.

Edited by Noivy, Oct 27 2017 - 08:17.


_Reynolds_Wrap_ #33 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 09:01

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Boy you guys know how to kill your own game huh

Shadora #34 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 09:38

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As someone who has played both Soviet TD lines to tier X (268 on test) and played roughly 175 games in the 263, and about 500 games in the OBJ 704, these changes will make both lines similar and the new proposed 268-4 automatically obsolete.  No one will play the new tank over the 268 or 704.  The armor of the 704 can bounce shots if you angle and it has mobility.  The current 268 plays similar but has an annoyingly slow shell velocity even after the buff.  I had a terrible WR in the 263 (41%), but still considered it a very fun tank and although I sold it to buy other tanks I want to buy it again after I'm done leveling tanks.

 

Here is my suggestion:

 

Give the 263 a roof to protect it from arty better, slightly better transverse, more gun depression (+3-4 deg), slightly better camo rating and make it 25% smaller length-wise.  The lesser alpha is unique to its line in exchange for accuracy and speed.  Call it the 263 v2.

 

The entire line suffers in the second half of the game when these lightly armored tanks have to compete in close combat situations without the benefit of good armor, alpha or gun depression.  Accuracy is less important in close combat situations when you have no armor.  The 263 can brawl however if it can close that ground and bounce a shot or two on the way in.

 

All TDs without turrets suffer from being flanked.  The reason why the entire line is played less IMO, is in late game situations it is hard to land a shot on anything with poor gun depression and slow transverse when you can't do enough damage to take out the enemy with one shot.  Simply moving them down a tier won't help them that much in that regards because most tier 8 games are low tier anyway.  The high "on paper" DPS does not benefit them in the game either.

 

The 263 is a unique and fun tank but due to arty and its lower plate, it suffers.  Give it a roof, more gun depression, more camo and make it smaller and I think it could do well.

 

Making the 268-4 like a slow 268 isn't going to make it anymore appealing.

 

In general there are certain types of TDs:

 

High alpha, medium accuracy, medium armor, medium mobility, medium camo (704).

High alpha, poor accuracy, good armor, medium mobility, low camo (proposed 268-4).

High alpha, excellent accuracy, no armor, good mobility, low camo (Grille line).

 

Medium alpha, high DPS, medium armor, medium mobility, medium camo is what I see the 263 line as and it doesn't fit.

 

What would fit is:

Medium alpha, excellent accuracy, good frontal armor, good mobility and transverse, great camo.

 

It would be played like a sniper early in the game, then like a fast heavy.

 

On a side note, the changes that have been made to the tier X tanks have, for the most part, been decent to liven up the lines.  I do not agree with the 416 changes either though as the rear mounted turret scheme should remain and a new tier X rear mounted 430 v3 should be created and not a frontally mounted turret.  How does a frontal turret add to the similarities of playing that line?

 

The 416 is one of your best tanks in game, I love mine, and all it needed was a lowering of its gold pen from 330 to 270 to be more balanced.  I don't know if the objective is purely business in that the 416 will be removed and the STG sold because the 416 is so popular, but from a playability standpoint, the 416 is a very fun tank even without the gold ammo.

 

The chance to make a unique rear mounted medium with high stealth capabilities at tier X is there and it would be a lot of fun like the Object 416 and Object 430 II.

 

Regardless of what is ultimately done.  I think change is good and most of the tanks needed some help.

 

 


Edited by Shadora, Oct 27 2017 - 12:07.


Shadora #35 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 12:23

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I just looked at the dispersion of 0.45 on most of these tanks and wonder why anyone would play them.  The tier 7 and 8 are not brawlers and what point would it be to play this with 0.45 dispersion?  What exactly are their roles?

 

The OBJ 268 is a brawling tank.  It is a mid-range support early on and a close up brawler later in the game but it has armor.  The proposed 263 line has thin armor and bad dispersion.  How exactly will they be played, if at all?  Granted, you can brawl in the OBJ 263, but it's still an arty magnet and you can't expect to go into a town and side scrape with arty reigning down on you.  The OBJ 263 needs to be a sniper with high camo and speed to remain hidden, or it needs a roof and a better lower plate.

 

The new proposal will make this line worse and not better IMO.



gpc_4 #36 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 15:16

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I was never going to play this line, don't really care much for TDs or Soviet tanks, but this is a poorly thought out change. Leave some variety in the game. The line is already unpopular and this won't change things. Stalin's Boot needs to remain at tier X.

QuicksilverJPR #37 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 18:12

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There is literally no reason to change this line.  A faster firing, lower alpha dmg (comparatively) tier 10 tank is (along with the other quirks of this line) are what makes it interesting/fun to play.

 

Stop cloning vehicles and making entire lines redundant.  This is quite possibly one of the worst ideas that WG comes up with...



Plays_With_Matches #38 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 19:59

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View Posttod914, on Oct 27 2017 - 08:55, said:

 

If it's enjoyable to play, then it needs a rebalance. 

 

No Doubt... I moved the crew out of my 3 marked VK28.01 once they deleted the 105mm... Well, if did try out the replacement gun and it is a decent gun but pretty much ran the VK exclusively in tier 6 Strongholds because it was a light tank killer and with the shear number of Type 64's in strongholds it made sense. But without the 105mm I figured I might as well my Type 64 and earn the extra credits.

By the way, I put my VK crew in my Luch and I am having a blast clubbing with that thing (At least it doesn't pull constant tier 10s).



spud_tuber #39 Posted Oct 27 2017 - 23:41

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CabbageMechanic, can I make a suggestion for your future topics of this nature?  

In addition to telling us the what, could you give us a summery of why?  What is the problem that needs addressing, or what are the goals of the changes.  Neither this change nor the 430 line changes make sense in the "homogenize the playstyle of the T8,9,&10" that was the case for the foch and fv215 changes.

BeanHoleBandit #40 Posted Oct 28 2017 - 02:02

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I think this line shouldn't be changed also. .I was about to go down this line.. I really wanted this tank after I realized how bad the 268 was compared to the E3 E4 and other big boom stick tanks with better accuracy.. 

now this line is going to be the 268 just with a rear turret that don't traverse so what is the point?   There is no need for two 268's. 

 

I kind of want to know to sale my tier 7 on this line or keep it... If your set on chaning it.. I'm going to quit the line.. I'm fine with out the buff just leave it the same.. 


Edited by BeanHoleBandit, Oct 28 2017 - 02:03.





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