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Tank marathon missions creating toxic (more than normal) gameplay

marathon community feedback request Missions Gameplay t34 B IS-6 B

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Poll: Marathon missions (45 members have cast votes)

Are marathon missions fine as they are?

  1. Yes, they are giving players free stuff, we can't really complain (23 votes [51.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 51.11%

  2. No, I do not enjoy the enforced competition within my own team that they promote (18 votes [40.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.00%

  3. I have no opinion on the matter. (4 votes [8.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.89%

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Metia #1 Posted Nov 13 2017 - 10:31

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So.  I hate the tank Marathons.

 

Yep I said it, I hate these things that give us free tanks.  I am looking the gift horse in the mouth, seeing how f'd it's teeth are and saying "please, don't give this to me or anyone else".

 

You may ask why, I mean it's a reasonable thing to ask.  Maybe I am a bad player?  Butthurt?  Who knows why this guy is complaining about free stuff, he must just be a troll.  

While I do live in a bit of a cave, troll, whole being sorta accurate is not accurate in the way you would normally use the term.  My gripe is that there are several missions for the T-34B and the IS-6B that make the game less fun for everyone involved, whether they care about the mission or not.

 

The Schwarzpanzer 58 missions tend to be 'do a lot of damage, and be in top 10 of exp/damage' which while a hell of a grind is still not a bad thing, in some ways it's great as it encourages people to play in a way where they live so they can do more damage... Sure it does not give you many options to use tank wise as spotting does not count, but it is in general a 'fair' requirement, and does not greatly impact the person doing the mission, or the game they are in.

 

Missions such as "Kill 3 enemy vehicles, 2x required" or "kill X tanks' however lead to people darting in front of each other to get kills, interfering with other's gameplay so that they make sure they get the kill, and in general making it a miserable game for all involved.  I have seen more people go blue, shove tanks into the line of fire if the opposing tank is low, not want to work together, as they may not get the KB, spam nothing but gold at every tier, play derp tanks, or simply not fire till they know they will get the kill and everyone else is reloading (you guys did the same thing with the stupid Leviathan missions btw) than I have ever seen before.  

 

The community is already volatile, adding missions that are difficult to do, and force the team to fight against each other is simply awful from a game play perspective.  I don't want to go in to a game, and know I am fighting 29 people for kills, some of which may have no interest in fair play guidelines.  Playing a 15 on 15 game is hard enough when people drown themselves if they do not like the matchup, go afk if they do not like the odds, or scoutacide in their heavy tanks to just get out of the game.  Please do not add more reasons for people to be pricks by setting incredibly selfish mission goals.  Also do not make it so certain tiers simply can't play (aka the new players), or that certain vehicle types (scouts, SPGs, any tank that benefits the team by what they are doing, (even if it does not help them)) have actually been disincentivised from being played, even though not having scouts kinda makes he games awful..

 

So, here is my ask;

Make missions that only effect the people doing them, not everyone else in the game.

Make missions with game play and fair play taken in to account.

Stop making missions where you are encouraged to do your own thing and ignore your team.

 

Call a spade a spade, I don't think you are getting high marks with regards to customer satisfaction of late, and I do not think events like this are helping.



Xeraux #2 Posted Nov 13 2017 - 11:15

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If people just played well they'd do their missions easily...

Evilcleric #3 Posted Nov 13 2017 - 11:54

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i think they really should think about health missions...

but disagree one point.

damage missions for new players are worst, at least with numbers increasing like hell...sunday i played more than 6 hours with my dicker max and ht heavy to finish that mission. Without they prob i would give up or play more than 10 hours only in that mission...

about kills: sure affect gameplay, like holding shoot and others...but at least is doable for new players (3kills, 5 kills is hard too...)

about wins: for tiers four until six are more easy...problem wg keep increasing numbers...will make simple work..

 

at least one thing prob is true...scorpion g will be sold like water...



raymee101 #4 Posted Nov 13 2017 - 12:09

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the missions are ridiculously easy with regular gameplay.  I mean come on, 3 kills over 2 matches and you dont even have to win??  Thats just easy mode.  Everyone will get 3 free tanks this month with ease thanks to these missions, so its hard to complain.  I actually think gameplay has gone up with these missions since people need damage so they are trying harder instead of just goofing off.  Great month of tanking so far, best in long time!

Evilcleric #5 Posted Nov 13 2017 - 12:49

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if u call more than 6 hours playing regular...today is 15 wins x 2 and 37k. if u play 10 matchs hour x 50% win rate, u will need 6 hours to win 30. More 37k damage...well for me that means 6 7 hours, maybe for u means less than 2 hours...today i will skip damage mission...maybe holiday, saturday and sunday i will try compensate. But ye, free stuff i cant complain much...just i fell exhausted, and wg deserve win money/profit. 



Augustus_GoldNoob_Sohn #6 Posted Nov 13 2017 - 14:31

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I just seriously could not believe the yolo-ing at high tiers. People lost their dang minds.

Bad_Oedipus #7 Posted Nov 13 2017 - 14:33

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My only complaint is wait time for tier 10 matches.  I turned off Grand battles for Schwarz Panzer mission, to get more games in and not increase chance of being to 10. 

Then it happen, while waiting for match in a Maus, I got a timeout... not connection to a server, but to play the game... it said roughly play another tank, cause we can't find you a game. 

There were several other instances where I had to wait 3 minutes or more for a game in a tier 10 tank.  All that with close to 500 players waiting for a game.

Maybe the server has limited number of games it can handle.... other than that it's $140 of free pixels.



MMI_SPI #8 Posted Nov 13 2017 - 17:08

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Free stuff is good. And I can understand they made some of the missions hard, it's a marathon. I think this marathon is balanced somehow, you don'T need to grind 100k XP in every f***n nation (Remember T-44-100) and at least 16 out 20 are manageable for every tank. I will grind both IS-6 and T34, but I already have the SchwPz so no need to grind this one. So far, I managed to do all tokens with about 2-3 hours of gameplay daily, no prem account. Except last Saturday, which took 6 hours to get the 24 wins... Ya! x5 weekends  :amazed:

 

Also, the objectives aren't there to promote bad gameplay, you'Re supposed to achieve the said objectives WHILE encouraging teamwork. Only problem is that it involves the peanut-brained sitting behind the monitor, which sometimes act selfishly and make some dubious moves to complete his personal agenda. I blame the people, cause some are sooo dumb it brings a new level of low to the humanity.


Edited by MMI_SPI, Nov 13 2017 - 17:17.


Metia #9 Posted Nov 14 2017 - 02:03

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View PostMMI_SPI, on Nov 13 2017 - 17:08, said:

Free stuff is good. And I can understand they made some of the missions hard, it's a marathon. I think this marathon is balanced somehow, you don'T need to grind 100k XP in every f***n nation (Remember T-44-100) and at least 16 out 20 are manageable for every tank. I will grind both IS-6 and T34, but I already have the SchwPz so no need to grind this one. So far, I managed to do all tokens with about 2-3 hours of gameplay daily, no prem account. Except last Saturday, which took 6 hours to get the 24 wins... Ya! x5 weekends  :amazed:

 

Also, the objectives aren't there to promote bad gameplay, you'Re supposed to achieve the said objectives WHILE encouraging teamwork. Only problem is that it involves the peanut-brained sitting behind the monitor, which sometimes act selfishly and make some dubious moves to complete his personal agenda. I blame the people, cause some are sooo dumb it brings a new level of low to the humanity.

 

The people are always there though, It's one of those things that should be taken into account when designing missions.  Games have to adapt based on their player base, if a server is full of idiots and asshats they need to go "well, maybe we should not promote such play by offering rewards for acting that way."  

 

Also as you said, the only certain tiers and classes limitation is just lame.  I get it will in theory sell more premiums, it still seems like bad business for the company as it promotes the pay to play aspect too heavyhandedley 



Metia #10 Posted Nov 15 2017 - 10:09

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Thanks for voting people!  The majority of you seem to be fine with them as they are, which honestly surprised me.  In general WoT players seem to have the "wthdid you just scuff my shoe" attitude towards others asking to do things, or in general playing in a way that stresses certain facets of the game that they do not want the focus to be on.  Case in point, try doing the HT mission where you have to cap the enemy base, someone on my team "accidentally" shot me when I tried to finish it for the HTC :P

zombieyeti #11 Posted Nov 15 2017 - 12:07

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<deleted>

Edited by zombieyeti, Nov 15 2017 - 12:10.


zombieyeti #12 Posted Nov 15 2017 - 12:08

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View PostMMI_SPI, on Nov 13 2017 - 08:08, said:

Free stuff is good. And I can understand they made some of the missions hard, it's a marathon. I think this marathon is balanced somehow, you don'T need to grind 100k XP in every f***n nation (Remember T-44-100) and at least 16 out 20 are manageable for every tank. I will grind both IS-6 and T34, but I already have the SchwPz so no need to grind this one. So far, I managed to do all tokens with about 2-3 hours of gameplay daily, no prem account. Except last Saturday, which took 6 hours to get the 24 wins... Ya! x5 weekends  :amazed:

 

Also, the objectives aren't there to promote bad gameplay, you'Re supposed to achieve the said objectives WHILE encouraging teamwork. Only problem is that it involves the peanut-brained sitting behind the monitor, which sometimes act selfishly and make some dubious moves to complete his personal agenda. I blame the people, cause some are sooo dumb it brings a new level of low to the humanity.

 

CLEARLY the Marathon missions largely *incentivize* toxic play (bad gameplay)

 

The missions could have been just as long, just as arduous, and been constructed to incentivize virtuous team gameplay. Too few missions are constructed this way.

One should never be surprised when people act in the manner they are incentivized to do.

On a plus note for the WoT economy, Personal Reserves are being consumed at a fantastic rate.

I'm assuming WG intentionally constructed 'frustrating' vs. 'merely difficult' missions for some specific reason(s) that WG knows and I can only speculate upon (spoiler below).

 

TL;DR

"Toxic" Play is construed to be any gameplay practices where individuals are penalized for engaging in virtuous behavior aligned with winning. Non-exhaustive examples of Virtuous team behavior:

  • "Focus Fire" - taking enemy guns out of the game, rather than ranking up damage to the enemy.
  • "Active/Passive" scouting (to provide targets for other tanks)
  • Capping and/or base resets when a win is in true doubt
  • Joining/leading a decisive maneuver when the outcome is unknown
  • Deliberately blocking enemy fire by maneuvering your almost dead anyway and too long to reload or higher HP and/or armored tank between enemy fire and a friendly, vulnerable tank, in order to keep a teammate's gun in the battle.
  • Disrupting enemy maneuvers and formations in order to buy your team time to regroup/cap, even at great risk to yourself.

 

Toxic missions, and designed to be so:
 

  • Any damage mission (win or not, where the player is competing to be in the top x on their team) incentivizes tankers to NOT focus fire. Under normal circumstances, given two tanks, one with low HP (a oneshot) and one with high HP, the general choice is to shoot the low HP tank (removing an enemy gun from the field).
    The damage missions incentivize tankers to shoot the *HIGH HP* tank instead, for two reasons. Obvious reason is to clock more damage. The less-obvious reason is that being on the *losing team* increases the chances that your damage is in the Top 10.
    Finally, when a player determines they are not likely to be in the top x ranking in a particular battle, it behooves them to 'exit' ASAP and start anew, rather than to continue fighting to the best of their ability.
     
  • Any mission where the objective is to damage as many tanks as possible.
    Given two tanks, one with low HP that you've shot previously in the battle, and a fresh target you haven't shot, with high HP, these missions incentivize you to shoot the higher HP target and clock another tank damaged.
    Additionally (and I am guilty of this) it incentivizes tankers to shoot HE (higher probability of some damage caused) versus AP/APCR/HEAT etc. (higher probability of total damage caused). With an autoloader and HE and a target priority of 'not yet damaged by me', a tanker can easily damage five tanks in a few moments versus AP/APCR/HEAT and focus fire, where a tanker might only damage one tank per magazine/drum.
     
  • Any mission where the objective is to kill x tanks in y number of battles, even if the secondary condition is a win.
    One will go to extraordinary measures to kill the xth tank, assuming that x-1 tanks have been killed already, unless a loss is imminent with your destruction of your tank. Rationale: It is more difficult to kill x tanks (where X>1) than to win a battle.
     
  • Any mission where the award goes to fewer than 1/2 of the winning team, especially those where the award goes to the top player.
    Anything from bumping another tank to TK or tracking another tank that is a contender for "your" slot is now incentivized.

 

Not Toxic (to the best of my recollection)

Mission requires a win, and top x placement by XP, where x is at least 7-8 players.

 

Hypothesis: Why would WG construct Marathon Mission that punish virtuous Gameplay?

 


Edited by zombieyeti, Nov 15 2017 - 12:47.


josif90 #13 Posted Nov 16 2017 - 07:45

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View PostXeraux, on Nov 13 2017 - 11:15, said:

If people just played well they'd do their missions easily...

 

That's bollocks. The way that the marathons are set up make them really hard to do with normal play. If you play normally at T7 or over your win rate will be well sub 50% with the mission MM and at least a third of the wins will be 0 damage or some such crap. About 4 longish matches for each 'win in top ten'. So the thing will take forever and drive you mad.

I've being doing the T34 and IS6 marathons (yes I am mad).  I just play two tanks and fill in with other when they are in battles.  For the T34 the M8A1 and for the IS6 the T28  Both these T4's have guns with really good gold ammo that work at T6 so they can be in a T6 battle and carry and are almost always in the top 10. So if you spend credits for premium ammo ( and food in the M8A1 to give it view range) you can get wins in the top 10 at 50% in shortish matches. then the marathons are just misery rather than Hell!

I do wish WG would make the missions work with  sensible play but what the hell this is WG.

I



Xeraux #14 Posted Nov 16 2017 - 10:57

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View Postjosif90, on Nov 15 2017 - 22:45, said:

 

That's bollocks. The way that the marathons are set up make them really hard to do with normal play. If you play normally at T7 or over your win rate will be well sub 50% with the mission MM and at least a third of the wins will be 0 damage or some such crap. About 4 longish matches for each 'win in top ten'. So the thing will take forever and drive you mad.

I've being doing the T34 and IS6 marathons (yes I am mad).  I just play two tanks and fill in with other when they are in battles.  For the T34 the M8A1 and for the IS6 the T28  Both these T4's have guns with really good gold ammo that work at T6 so they can be in a T6 battle and carry and are almost always in the top 10. So if you spend credits for premium ammo ( and food in the M8A1 to give it view range) you can get wins in the top 10 at 50% in shortish matches. then the marathons are just misery rather than Hell!

I do wish WG would make the missions work with  sensible play but what the hell this is WG.

I

I've been doing them mostly with the T20, M46, and T57 Heavy for T34B and Object 907, IS-7, Object 704 for IS-6B. At the time of this post I'm 14/15 on the T34B and 13/15 on the IS-6B, with what, 5 more days to go?

Like I said, if you play well, you'll get the missions done easy peasy.



CCCP_GDR #15 Posted Nov 16 2017 - 11:48

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                          I     a l w a y s   appreciate any missions that WG gives us to earn free items.

Shenala #16 Posted Nov 16 2017 - 12:15

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View PostXeraux, on Nov 16 2017 - 10:57, said:

I've been doing them mostly with the T20, M46, and T57 Heavy for T34B and Object 907, IS-7, Object 704 for IS-6B. At the time of this post I'm 14/15 on the T34B and 13/15 on the IS-6B, with what, 5 more days to go?

Like I said, if you play well, you'll get the missions done easy peasy.

 

This is a nonsensical answer.  Some of us work most of the day and come home to the riff-raff that hits the NA server at about 8-9pm PST.  Assuming one gets home at 9pm, that gives 6 hours.  At 10 games an hour (yeah, right)that's 60 games.  Even with a 55% WR and a 1400 WN8, I was only able to complete 11 of the 18 necessary... and I got home at 11.

 

Just because you "play well" doesn't necessarily preclude a win.  I have multiple games with a 2000+ wn8 tonight and are losses.

 

I even bought the Skoprion G to grind out the DMG for the German line as I don't have anything over T8.  I haven't finished one of those in days.  Why?  I simply don't have 6-7hours+ to play during the best times.  And I'm not alone, but apparently WG gives 0 poops about making their now-combined server happy.

 

Why was it that they combined the servers?  I forget......



Xeraux #17 Posted Nov 16 2017 - 12:17

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View PostShenala, on Nov 16 2017 - 03:15, said:

 

This is a nonsensical answer.  Some of us work most of the day and come home to the riff-raff that hits the NA server at about 8-9pm PST.  Assuming one gets home at 9pm, that gives 6 hours.  At 10 games an hour (yeah, right)that's 60 games.  Even with a 55% WR and a 1400 WN8, I was only able to complete 11 of the 18 necessary... and I got home at 11.

 

Just because you "play well" doesn't necessarily preclude a win.  I have multiple games with a 2000+ wn8 tonight and are losses.

 

I even bought the Skoprion G to grind out the DMG for the German line as I don't have anything over T8.  I haven't finished one of those in days.  Why?  I simply don't have 6-7hours+ to play during the best times.  And I'm not alone, but apparently WG gives 0 poops about making their now-combined server happy.

 

Why was it that they combined the servers?  I forget......

So WG should make the missions easier for you because you can't commit time to them? Now, that's nonsensical.



cy_o_nyde #18 Posted Nov 16 2017 - 15:36

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How about making everyone play their (average level) in these marathons for tanks! No more than 1 or 2 level variance! Because right now you have guys that are average level 6, 7, 8 playing against level 3 and 4 averages to get there Marathon / mission done! This will keep everyone at a even keel, and I want to hear you cry babies say! We never had that, we had to do it the hard way, nah no you didn't. The game's different. And they didn't have these type of marathons before. So shut up! 

Shenala #19 Posted Nov 17 2017 - 00:13

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View PostXeraux, on Nov 16 2017 - 12:17, said:

So WG should make the missions easier for you because you can't commit time to them? Now, that's nonsensical.

 

 

This is the exact type of logic that causes games to die.

 

I'm not asking them to make the missions easier but more reasonable for someone who actually has a regular job.  You know, the folks who spend $100 on a Löwe package thinking they'll be epic, but have a WN8 of 200 and a WR of 45% but don't get that you have to obsess a bit to get any better at something.

 

And yes, I think that, for an average player, 18 wins being in the top 66% is challenging, but with enough time, it's possible.  But it takes time and most average players (judging from the server populations I see during the day) don't have the time required to attempt these reasonably.  Couple that with the sales of the same vehicles AND the tokens to complete the missions and it feels more like a cash grab than an actual realistic series of missions.  Come on, 30 Victories in the top 66% for each tank?... add the 50k Dmg for the Germans and it's more of wth.  It makes one wonder what section of the population they expected to purchase the tokens or just flat out buy the tank, instead.

 

Last thought... Both the T34 and the IS-6 are, arguably, outdated.  Yes, you can do alright in them, but there are far better tanks.  If they spent more time on actually balancing the tanks to their roles, developing/correcting maps or making new content and less time re-skinning tanks for a new tree, making a mission UI that's haphazard (at best) or making new tanks to grab at more cash, they would be far more successful.  Yes, it's a business, but judging by the fact that they had to finally merge the East/West/Central servers (the west had routinely 2k players on it, with peaks at 5k), I'm guessing WGNA isn't doing so hot.  

 

 

TL;DR: It's not the top 4-5% of the game that supports WG, it's the other 95-96% of players out.  By creating missions that are nearly impossible to reasonably complete for the average player, they are in fact, forcing them to buy tanks that are sub-par with current complimentary tanks of the same tiers.  For missions this complex, you would expect a Black Dog or even a Black Crommie B (drool!!!!).  THOSE would be worth this level of mission difficulty.

 

 

 



Hazakdds #20 Posted Nov 17 2017 - 00:48

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I have to agree with those that have a full time job, I have one and this isn't it. 

I stopped even trying for those free tanks because they made the process needlessly complex now with parts and it does promote foolish game play.  Note to WG: in an effort to cultivate frustration, you have succeeded admirably. 

Note to unicums: Yes, I need to play better.  In reference to this observation, please see my first sentence.

 

Note to board: The fact that I thought this was a different subject shows that confusion isn't that difficult to achieve with the convoluted "New and Improved" next brain-child of these fine devs...


Edited by Hazakdds, Nov 17 2017 - 01:06.





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