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GeorgePreddy #41 Posted Nov 29 2017 - 14:28

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View Post62bish, on Nov 21 2017 - 16:56, said:

Sometimes I feel the human species is getting what it deserves.
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We are getting what we deserve... which is "nutrients", according to the definition.

MacDaddyMatty #42 Posted Nov 29 2017 - 15:05

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View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Nov 22 2017 - 16:03, said:

 

Why would no science publications publish Dr. Svensmark's work? As we learned in climategate the leading AGW proponents threatened to blacklist any science publication that published anything they did not agree with. That is not science.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This for me is my problem in a nutshell.

The idea that "the science is settled" in any scientific discussion is abhorrent and smacks of Nicolaus Copernicus vs the Church on the Earth-Centric solar system model. "The Science was Settled" that the sun revolved around the earth.


 

Anytime Science is Settled and not continuously questioned, it stops being science, and becomes "faith".


 

Disclaimer: I am a tree-hugger (well, tree-hugging Libertarian) and hate the human sprawl and all that comes with it.

I support cleaner technologies and de-centralizing the power grids.

I hate toe politicizing of environmental issues.



Klaatu_Nicto #43 Posted Nov 29 2017 - 21:48

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View PostMacDaddyMatty, on Nov 29 2017 - 06:05, said:

 

 

This for me is my problem in a nutshell.

The idea that "the science is settled" in any scientific discussion is abhorrent and smacks of Nicolaus Copernicus vs the Church on the Earth-Centric solar system model. "The Science was Settled" that the sun revolved around the earth.


 

Anytime Science is Settled and not continuously questioned, it stops being science, and becomes "faith".


 

Disclaimer: I am a tree-hugger (well, tree-hugging Libertarian) and hate the human sprawl and all that comes with it.

I support cleaner technologies and de-centralizing the power grids.

I hate toe politicizing of environmental issues.

 

One hundred years ago the 'settled science' said the Channeled Scablands in Washington State where formed over millions of years. A geologist came up with a theory that the Scablands were formed by a mega flood which earned him the same kind of treatment anyone disputing human caused climate change gets today.

 

But he was right.

 



Klaatu_Nicto #44 Posted Nov 30 2017 - 00:28

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Whenever someplace on earth experiences a record high temperature that will be claimed to be proof of human caused global warming. When something like below happens that will be claimed to be natural and/or it's winter.

 

Parts of Siberia are Colder Than Minus 60 Degrees Fahrenheit and It's Only November
Some of this arctic air could spill into the central and eastern U.S. in 7 to 10 days....The daytime high in Delyankir Tuesday failed to rise above -60 degrees....Temperatures this extreme are par for the course in this area during the heart of winter, but it's significantly colder than the average November low of close to minus 40.
https://weather.com/...ees-in-november


Edited by Klaatu_Nicto, Nov 30 2017 - 00:28.


Klaatu_Nicto #45 Posted Nov 30 2017 - 03:05

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Government scientists push for right to speak freely about research

 

Scientists working for government agencies have accused the federal government of muzzling them on issues like climate change....A survey by their union, the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada, found nine out of 10 government scientists feel they aren’t allowed to speak freely about the work they do.

 

https://globalnews.c...about-research/

 

Government Scientists Gather To Protest Something Everybody Thought Was A “Conspiracy”

 

Scientists working for the Canadian government are starting to raise their voices, accusing the federal government of “muzzling” them and their findings on various issues, particularly when it comes to climate change.

 

Not only do we have muzzled government scientists, we also have manipulation of scientific data, all of which leads to a misinformed public.

 

http://www.collectiv...s-a-conspiracy/

 

 


Edited by Klaatu_Nicto, Nov 30 2017 - 03:05.


Iron_Soul_Stealer #46 Posted Nov 30 2017 - 09:18

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Honestly, I don't claim to know all the answers, but I'm absolutely convinced that climate change {global warming} is happening...and it's real.

 

*Living in a fairly remote northern community, I can see it happening in real time, in my own backyard. There are many reasons for my conclusion, but I'll just give you two obvious ones:

 

#1. Our local town council recently decided {unanimously} to cancel and close all outdoor skating rinks due to poor and unsuitable ice conditions. In other words, it has become too warm to even sustain outdoor ice in our region. We have had outdoor skating rinks in our community for over 100 years {true story}, however, in the last 10 years it has become almost impossible to keep the ice frozen for more than a few days at a time...before the entire rink melts. All outdoor skating rinks are now cancelled until further notice.

 

#2. Our local charitable ice fishing derby has been cancelled every year for 8 years in a row due to unsafe/thin ice conditions. Local officials and organizers of the event have deemed the ice to be unsafe to walk on. This charitable ice fishing event has been going on since 1923, but it's unlikely that it will ever happen again. Our community lake, which is usually frozen thick by event time, has been unsafe for even a duck to walk on without crashing through. Again, true story.

 

*It truly saddens me that our next generation of local children will never experience that beautiful feeling of a cold, crisp wind on their faces as they skate across a frozen outdoor rink, Or, that wondrous chance to 'set the hook' on a monster lake trout as they struggle to raise their line from a hole drilled through an ice covered lake.

 

 



Horribad_At_Tanks #47 Posted Nov 30 2017 - 16:59

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View PostIron_Soul_Stealer, on Nov 30 2017 - 03:18, said:

Honestly, I don't claim to know all the answers, but I'm absolutely convinced that climate change {global warming} is happening...and it's real.

 

*Living in a fairly remote northern community, I can see it happening in real time, in my own backyard. There are many reasons for my conclusion, but I'll just give you two obvious ones:

 

#1. Our local town council recently decided {unanimously} to cancel and close all outdoor skating rinks due to poor and unsuitable ice conditions. In other words, it has become too warm to even sustain outdoor ice in our region. We have had outdoor skating rinks in our community for over 100 years {true story}, however, in the last 10 years it has become almost impossible to keep the ice frozen for more than a few days at a time...before the entire rink melts. All outdoor skating rinks are now cancelled until further notice.

 

#2. Our local charitable ice fishing derby has been cancelled every year for 8 years in a row due to unsafe/thin ice conditions. Local officials and organizers of the event have deemed the ice to be unsafe to walk on. This charitable ice fishing event has been going on since 1923, but it's unlikely that it will ever happen again. Our community lake, which is usually frozen thick by event time, has been unsafe for even a duck to walk on without crashing through. Again, true story.

 

*It truly saddens me that our next generation of local children will never experience that beautiful feeling of a cold, crisp wind on their faces as they skate across a frozen outdoor rink, Or, that wondrous chance to 'set the hook' on a monster lake trout as they struggle to raise their line from a hole drilled through an ice covered lake.

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is contesting that climate change is happening or that we have even gone through a brief warming period as this is the inter glacial period after all and it had to get warmer in comparison to the ice age before it goes back to snowball earth like it has cycled back and forth for billions of years. The controversy comes from how and why its happening. One school of thought says its all 100% man made and that to 'save the planet' we have to depopulate back to under 500 million globally or the planet will literally die. The other school of thought is that this is simply the same thing happening now as has happened naturally for billions of years and our short lives and even shorter memories can't wrap around that long a time spread and revert back to simple observational conclusions. From the looks of it this warming trend has been caused by a grand solar maximum in conjunction with the normal warming of the earth during its endless cycle of frozen earth vs thawed earth and will eventually even out as it always has. If anything with a grand solar minimum now happening right after a maximum where it usually goes back to the suns normal output we might see a mini ice age as the sun goes from +20% output over norms to -20% output under norms which is going to play absolute hell with the environment as that's a 40% reduction in output from what it is now.

Klaatu_Nicto #48 Posted Nov 30 2017 - 20:09

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Satellites Show No Acceleration In Global Warming For 23 Years
Global warming has not accelerated temperature rise in the bulk atmosphere in more than two decades, according to a new study funded by the Department of Energy. Christy and McNider found the rate of warming has been 0.096 degrees Celsius per decade after “the removal of volcanic cooling in the early part of the record,”
http://dailycaller.c...g-for-23-years/


Take A Look At The New ‘Consensus’ On Global Warming
The global warming “hiatus” is real and the models didn’t see it coming. Santer’s paper argues the “hiatus” or “slowdown” in warming “has provided the scientific community with a valuable opportunity to advance understanding” of the climate system and how to model it.
http://dailycaller.c...global-warming/


The Incestuous Nature of the IPCC Reports
It is no small matter that routine weather service functionaries from New Zealand to Tanzania are referred to as ‘the world’s leading climate scientists.’
https://wattsupwitht...e-ipcc-reports/


May 28, 2017 - Much More Sea Ice In NW Hudson Bay This Year Than 2016 Or 2015 At 27 May
https://polarbearsci...2015-at-27-may/

 

November 2, 2017 - Early Freeze-Up In Progress On Hudson Bay
https://polarbearsci...e-a-year-makes/

 

Boston Breaks 116-Year-Old Record Low
https://www.iceageno...old-record-low/


Record Cold Veterans Day In New York City
Buzz Aldrin quote: “I think the climate has been changing for billions of years. If it’s warming now, it may cool off later. I’m not in favor of just taking short-term isolated situations and depleting our resources to keep our climate just the way it is today. I’m not necessarily of the school that we are causing it all, I think the world is causing it.”
https://www.iceageno...-new-york-city/

 

November 4, 2017 - Earliest Snow In 33 Years Brushes Seattle; More Possible Overnight
http://www.seattlewe...more-overnight/

 

Seattle Hit With Early November Snowfall
Unusually low temperatures brought early snow. NWS predicted early Friday morning that we’ll set a record for lowest high temperature for the day.
https://seattle.curb...w-slush-weather



Klaatu_Nicto #49 Posted Dec 01 2017 - 18:12

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"[British] Children just aren’t going to know what snow is." - Dr David Viner, senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia, March 2000

 

"British children could have only virtual experience of snow. Via the internet, they might wonder at polar scenes - or eventually “feel” virtual cold." - David Parker, at the Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research, March 2000


Britain Braced For Three Weeks Of Freezing Arctic Air

November 2017 - Forecasters predict it could get as cold as -15C this winter, with Arctic air bringing the chance of snow in the south. The first snow of the season fell across northern areas of the UK yesterday.
http://metro.co.uk/2...ic-air-7074544/

 

I predict that some of the proponents of human caused global warming will find a way to save faith by blaming the Mount Agung eruption or any other volcanic eruption for upcoming weather and climate change.

 

 


Edited by Klaatu_Nicto, Dec 01 2017 - 18:19.


Striker_70 #50 Posted Dec 01 2017 - 20:27

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View PostMacDaddyMatty, on Nov 29 2017 - 08:05, said:

 

 

This for me is my problem in a nutshell.

The idea that "the science is settled" in any scientific discussion is abhorrent and smacks of Nicolaus Copernicus vs the Church on the Earth-Centric solar system model. "The Science was Settled" that the sun revolved around the earth.


 

Anytime Science is Settled and not continuously questioned, it stops being science, and becomes "faith".

 

 

Yeah there is no such thing as settled science.  That's why science comes to theories rather than conclusions. 

 

Albert Einstein pointed out that ultimately even science itself is a faith, a faith in the orderliness in the universe. 

 

 



Ikanator #51 Posted Dec 01 2017 - 21:03

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There is and always will be an extent to which real science is like trying to nail jello to the wall. Just when you think you finally have things firmly fastened in one area they break out in another, and by the time you finish with that you realize that the first area is actually pretty shaky also. Just look what has been happening to dark matter theories recently. And there are a whole bunch of different variables and interactions involved in climate that we just don't have a good handle on.

Iron_Soul_Stealer #52 Posted Dec 02 2017 - 02:26

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View PostHorribad_At_Tanks, on Nov 30 2017 - 10:59, said:

 

I don't think anyone is contesting that climate change is happening or that we have even gone through a brief warming period as this is the inter glacial period after all and it had to get warmer in comparison to the ice age before it goes back to snowball earth like it has cycled back and forth for billions of years. The controversy comes from how and why its happening. One school of thought says its all 100% man made and that to 'save the planet' we have to depopulate back to under 500 million globally or the planet will literally die. The other school of thought is that this is simply the same thing happening now as has happened naturally for billions of years and our short lives and even shorter memories can't wrap around that long a time spread and revert back to simple observational conclusions. From the looks of it this warming trend has been caused by a grand solar maximum in conjunction with the normal warming of the earth during its endless cycle of frozen earth vs thawed earth and will eventually even out as it always has. If anything with a grand solar minimum now happening right after a maximum where it usually goes back to the suns normal output we might see a mini ice age as the sun goes from +20% output over norms to -20% output under norms which is going to play absolute hell with the environment as that's a 40% reduction in output from what it is now.

 

Btw, I once posted an answer {well, more of a theory} to that controversial question, but my thread/post was shut down and deleted as a result, so I won't be sharing it again anytime soon....especially around here.

 

I will say this, though...

*Why does this topic {climate change} have to be a 'black or white' issue..? Why can't there be a third school of thought, somewhere in the middle, that includes BOTH factors as likely causes..? *ie. Human activity and development {7 billion people!} AND the natural geophysical/solar events like volcanoes/eruptions and solar maximums etc. ? Honestly, I think the answers and the truth we are seeking probably lie somewhere in the middle of your two suggested school of thoughts. 

 

View PostStriker_70, on Dec 01 2017 - 14:27, said:

 

Yeah there is no such thing as settled science.  That's why science comes to theories rather than conclusions. 

 

Albert Einstein pointed out that ultimately even science itself is a faith, a faith in the orderliness in the universe. 

 

 

^..Yep, good point.

*And as I stated earlier, I don't need any 'internet links' and/or political propaganda to persuade me {one way, or the other}. I believe what I see with my own eyes, and can clearly see climate change happening in real time, in my own backyard. It seems to be going from one extreme to the other....kinda like some of the posters in this forum.

 



Horribad_At_Tanks #53 Posted Dec 02 2017 - 20:51

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View PostIron_Soul_Stealer, on Dec 01 2017 - 20:26, said:

 

Btw, I once posted an answer {well, more of a theory} to that controversial question, but my thread/post was shut down and deleted as a result, so I won't be sharing it again anytime soon....especially around here.

 

I will say this, though...

*Why does this topic {climate change} have to be a 'black or white' issue..? Why can't there be a third school of thought, somewhere in the middle, that includes BOTH factors as likely causes..? *ie. Human activity and development {7 billion people!} AND the natural geophysical/solar events like volcanoes/eruptions and solar maximums etc. ? Honestly, I think the answers and the truth we are seeking probably lie somewhere in the middle of your two suggested school of thoughts.

 

Because once you get past the shady climate change studies you start to find that man has little to no effect on global weather due to his pollution being about what a typical active volcano spews in a year and we have dozens of active volcanoes. Local weather and air quality on the other hand we certainly have some effect on as the smog in china shows and how large cities can generate their own local weather from the large area of heat rising from the city itself. So yes whilst there might be some room in the second school of thought for mans influence no one has yet brought forth any credible evidence that that is the actual case. Every single doomsday model put forth so far has failed epically and al gores prediction of an earth with no ice came and went with record ice gains on both poles. Just not seeing it ISS.



Iron_Soul_Stealer #54 Posted Dec 02 2017 - 22:10

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View PostHorribad_At_Tanks, on Dec 02 2017 - 14:51, said:

 

Because once you get past the shady climate change studies you start to find that man has little to no effect on global weather due to his pollution being about what a typical active volcano spews in a year and we have dozens of active volcanoes. Local weather and air quality on the other hand we certainly have some effect on as the smog in china shows and how large cities can generate their own local weather from the large area of heat rising from the city itself. So yes whilst there might be some room in the second school of thought for mans influence no one has yet brought forth any credible evidence that that is the actual case. Every single doomsday model put forth so far has failed epically and al gores prediction of an earth with no ice came and went with record ice gains on both poles. Just not seeing it ISS.

^..Excuse me..?  "shady climate change studies..?" ....:facepalm:

That's quite a bold and broad generalization to make. Not to mention, an extremely charged and unfair accusation to make about scientists who are constantly being scrutinized and evaluated by both their peers/fellow scientists, as well as the rest of the world. Dismissing all of these studies as "shady" is, in itself, shady. Ironically. In other words, when I paint my happy little trees, I try not to paint everything with the same brush. 

 

Next, are you going to say there is some "vast global conspiracy" consisting of ALL climate change scientists around the world...? Yes, that must be it! They're all out to get us. Not likely.

 

*Btw, if you're not 'seeing it', then I suggest you step away from your keyboard for a while and get off the internet. Maybe take a walk outside, or look out a window. That's what I do. On that note, we used to have lots of snow on the ground this time of year, in our neck of the woods, but I'm not seeing it....and I'm looking out my window right now. I still don't see any snow. Must be that huge volcano in front of my house that keeps melting it. Ya, that must be it. 

 

 



Horribad_At_Tanks #55 Posted Dec 02 2017 - 22:13

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View PostIron_Soul_Stealer, on Dec 02 2017 - 16:10, said:

^..Excuse me..?  "shady climate change studies..?" ....:facepalm:

 

 

 

I suppose you really want to summon Klaatu to the thread to bury you in page after page of why nearly all the so called studies are not only shady but downright criminal.



Iron_Soul_Stealer #56 Posted Dec 02 2017 - 22:28

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View PostHorribad_At_Tanks, on Dec 02 2017 - 16:13, said:

 

I suppose you really want to summon Klaatu to the thread to bury you in page after page of why nearly all the so called studies are not only shady but downright criminal.

^..Remember... watch those generalizations, dude...:D Happy little clouds... happy little trees.

 

 



Striker_70 #57 Posted Dec 03 2017 - 04:19

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View PostIron_Soul_Stealer, on Dec 01 2017 - 19:26, said:

 

^..Yep, good point.

*And as I stated earlier, I don't need any 'internet links' and/or political propaganda to persuade me {one way, or the other}. I believe what I see with my own eyes, and can clearly see climate change happening in real time, in my own backyard. It seems to be going from one extreme to the other....kinda like some of the posters in this forum.

 

 

Do you think personal experience is enough to determine the scale of global anthropogenic warming?



Klaatu_Nicto #58 Posted Dec 03 2017 - 23:06

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My personal experience in my area is the average temperature for Jun 2016 was 9 degrees below normal followed by other below normal months. The winter of 2016/17 was the coldest since the 1980s, in November 2017 we had the earliest snow in 33 years and set a record lowest daytime high temperature.  

 

Seattle - The Last Time Winter Was This Cold, Reagan Was President
http://www.king5.com...years/416994172

 

Elsewhere in the world the past year or two.........

 

The Frozen Harvest — Images of Alberta’s Ice Storm
https://www.realagri...rtas-ice-storm/

 

Mammoth's First Snow Of The Season Comes One Month Early.
http://www.latimes.c...0921-story.html


California Skiers hit Slopes In September, And All Summer
http://www.sfgate.co...ns-12213225.php

 

Frozen corn in South Dakota in late June 2017
https://twitter.com/...678704976265218
https://twitter.com/...862168040157188

 

Cold Spring Temperatures Affect Volumes Of Organic Bananas From Mexico

http://www.freshplaz...nas-from-Mexico

 

Virginia Freeze Leaves Fruit Farmers Questioning Supply Come Harvest

http://www.freshplaz...ly-come-harvest

 

Michigan Freeze Devastates Oceana County Asparagus Crop
http://www.freshplaz...-asparagus-crop Over 80%

 

Loss In Blueberry & Peach Crops After Deep South Freeze
http://www.freshplaz...ep-South-freeze

 

The worst frost in decades knocks British winemakers off course
https://www.economis...tish-winemakers

 

Severe frosts a bitter blow to WA farmers hoping for record harvest
http://www.abc.net.a...t-in-wa/7878578

 

Wheat Futures Surge After [Spring] Snow Slams U.S. Crop
https://www.agweb.co...s-us-crop-blmg/

 

Beef Prices Soar After [Spring] Blizzard Clobbers Midwest
https://www.bloomber...lobbers-midwest

 

Cold weather brings vegetable rationing to Europe
http://heatst.com/wo...inach-broccoli/

 

Frost Hits European Fruit And Vegetable Sector Hard
http://www.freshplaz...ble-sector-hard

 

Trapped in Twillingate: Iced-in crab fishermen need compensation, FFAW says

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...ngate-1.4076069

 

Adelaide – Coldest start to winter on record

http://www.abc.net.a...-winter/8578150

 

Snow arrives early in High Country, and brings NSW a wintry blast

http://www.news.com....9fabb86312ae7ee

 

Snow arrives two months early by Thomas Hunter
http://arcticsnap.com/index.php?id=283

 

Bitterly cold start as overnight temperatures plunge below freezing

http://www.stuff.co....-below-freezing

 

Brazil: Winter starts two months early - Crop losses recorded.

http://www.correiodo...-Grande-do-Sul-

 

Argentina – Snowfall causes heavy losses for vine crops
http://supercampo.pe...-ultima-nevada/

 

Argentina – Surprise snow in spring
http://www.elpatagon...s-behr-n1511170

 

Temperatures far below normal in South Africa
http://www.freddofil...ivo-sud-africa/

 

Real science, not theory, points to the following as being more likely to be in our future.

 

 



Iron_Soul_Stealer #59 Posted Dec 04 2017 - 00:02

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View PostStriker_70, on Dec 02 2017 - 22:19, said:

 

Do you think personal experience is enough to determine the scale of global anthropogenic warming?

^..Possibly, if you're as old as I am...:D

 

Spoiler

 

-Those who live the longest... see the most.

 

View PostHorribad_At_Tanks, on Dec 02 2017 - 16:13, said:

 

I suppose you really want to summon Klaatu to the thread to bury you in page after page of why nearly all the so called studies are not only shady but downright criminal.

 

^..Again, remember to watch those 'blanket statements' and generalizations, dude. They will seriously jeopardize the integrity and credibility of your posts. :D"Happy little clouds... happy little trees."

 

~Cheers! :)

 

 

 



Iron_Soul_Stealer #60 Posted Dec 04 2017 - 00:47

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*Btw, if anyone is interested, here are some more of my personal experiences that I am seeing, first hand {with regards to climate change}, in my backyard. No "interwebz-links" necessary.

 

Of course, I am also seeing some 'freaky flash freeze' events at very strange and unusual times of the year {which has usually resulted in the frozen deaths of my beloved tomato plants}. *However, these flash freeze events are always temporary and are quickly followed by an extreme shift in warming. So much so, that my beloved tomato plants will be frozen solid one day, then 'cooked' and scorched on the back porch the very next day.

 

*In other words, what I have been seeing and observing over the past few decades is not so much a slow, steady, and moderate "global warming trend". It's more like a flip-flop EXTREME climate/weather change trend. Meaning: Events and patterns seem to go from one extreme to the other very quickly {flip-flop}, with little or no moderation in between {it's either really freaking cold!, or really freaking hot!, not much in between}.

 

I live in a fairly remote northern community, and we used to say that we enjoyed four distinct seasons here. However, we can't really say that anymore. When I was a kid, winter would surely come each year...usually in November. And when it arrived {usually over the course of a few days} it stayed. And it stayed for the entire winter season, until spring came. Now, we are lucky if we even have a white Christmas each year. Yes, of course it still snows and freezes... sometimes, but then, as quickly as the snow comes, it starts to rain and quickly melts away and disappears a few days later. Now, it usually just rains throughout our winters. In fact, there doesn't even seem to be much of a distinction anymore between fall, winter and spring. Sadly, they all just kind of blend together....with summer being the crazy hot/dry season. 

 

I used to joke around years ago when I predicted, that in the future, we would probably only have two seasons left around here, instead of four. A hot dry season, and then a wet season. I suspect the joke's on me, because that's exactly what I'm seeing now. True story.

 

I guess the future is here....:amazed:

 






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