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40 loses to 5 wins


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Absolute #41 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 04:14

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View Post__Arc__, on Nov 22 2017 - 04:03, said:

 

Here's the thing, though, we don't know which games, if any, WG uses this for. WG has several online games. Companies have been known to patent something and not use it just so other companies can't use the idea. Can you prove which games, if any, WG uses this matchmaker for? It's reasonable to assume they use it for WoT, but there's no way to prove it.

 

Even if you assume this matchmaker is present in WoT, don't you think the matchmaker would be dragging this sorry player (OP) up, instead of setting him off on losing streaks? His claim that this game is rigged is nullified based on the fact that he's a horrible player. If he was winning 80% in 45 battles with bot stats, you could argue this is a classic case of WG patent rigged MM, but it's the opposite. He's losing with bot stats, which is what we should be expecting. Somebody that does nothing has a negative impact for his team, and contributes to the loss instead of for the win. The patent would suggest MM would compensate for the fact that he is doing nothing every game, and put him on teams that can carry his weight for him, leading to closer to 50% wins. That isn't what's happening.

 

Considering the OP is on a massive losing streak, it seems that this should be an argument for MM not being rigged, and players that do nothing every game SHOULD lose all the time. It's laughable that somebody as bad as the OP would be complaining about how often they lose.

 

 

 

They really never designed MM for people who are basically bots, which you're using for your example, you also talk like MM is perfect; which it's not. It's for those average players and to keep them playing when going up against players way above their skill MM will eventually throw them into games they're more likely to win. For bots and people who might as well be bots even if MM tried to put them into winning games it goes from a 15v15 to 14v15 and so on for how many people its trying to put into a winning game ruining the odds of their team to win even if the team had a "good chance" to win.

 

Also if you actually read the patent it talks about "World of tanks".


Edited by Absolute, Nov 22 2017 - 04:16.


_Schneller_Heinz_ #42 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 04:18

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View Postg4143, on Nov 22 2017 - 02:19, said:

Yup! 40 loses to 5 wins and 12 - 15 of those loses were in a row! You could excuse this if it was a one time thing an anomaly but it isn't. These losing streaks happen all the time and the probability that its random is very unlikely. The game is rigged, its contrived, its programmed to behave this way.

 

Instead of whining on the forum pick up the pace and carry (at least your sorry butt) 

 

 


Edited by _Schneller_Heinz_, Nov 22 2017 - 04:19.


_Schneller_Heinz_ #43 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 04:19

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View PostAbsolute, on Nov 22 2017 - 04:14, said:

 

They really never designed MM for people who are basically bots, which you're using for your example, you also talk like MM is perfect; which it's not. It's for those average players and to keep them playing when going up against players way above their skill MM will eventually throw them into games they're more likely to win. For bots and people who might as well be bots even if MM tried to put them into winning games it goes from a 15v15 to 14v15 and so on for how many people its trying to put into a winning game ruining the odds of their team to win even if the team had a "good chance" to win.

 

Also if you actually read the patent it talks about "World of tanks".

 

LM4O

__Arc__ #44 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 04:21

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View PostAbsolute, on Nov 21 2017 - 22:14, said:

 

They really never designed MM for people who are basically bots, which you're using for your example, you also talk like MM is perfect; which it's not. It's for those average players and to keep them playing when going up against players way above their skill MM will eventually throw them into games they're more likely to win. For bots and people who might as well be bots even if MM tried to put them into winning games it goes from a 15v15 to 14v15 and so on for how many people its trying to put into a winning game ruining the odds of their team to win even if the team had a "good chance" to win.

 

Also if you actually read the patent it talks about "World of tanks".

 

In other words: the OP is so bad, the rigged matchmaker can't function as intended, bringing me back to my original post where I said that, rigged or not, how you play can have a large impact on the battle.

GeorgePreddy #45 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 04:28

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View Postg4143, on Nov 21 2017 - 22:34, said:

 

You are assuming the teams are fixed and they are not so that makes a stupid point.

 

What he's saying is that wins and losses are a zero sum deal. For everyone who loses... someone also automatically MUST win.

Firemoth #46 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 04:28

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a more fitting title for this thread would have been

"why 14 players on my team didnt carry me for 40 games"



Absolute #47 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 04:31

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View Post__Arc__, on Nov 22 2017 - 04:21, said:

 

In other words: the OP is so bad, the rigged matchmaker can't function as intended, bringing me back to my original post where I said that, rigged or not, how you play can have a large impact on the battle.

 

Basically, yeah. Almost every time I see something about "I can't win games", "SCREW MM", "x losses to x wins", etc. it's someone with bot stats complaining. They don't realize that they're the problem, not the team. But looking at OP's stats he's gone from a 42.35% WR to 43.62% WR, so MM might be working as intended. And his wn8 has gone from 60 to 102 so it's not like OP got better lmbo.

Ironclad73 #48 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 04:42

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OP, there is a way to fix this "rigged" game. When I was at your battle count and even a little higher I was no better than you are now. The only difference is instead of coming to the forum to whine/blame I took a hard look at how poorly I was doing and came to the forum for advice and to learn.

 

When I started to get more damage and kills in games I suddenly saw I was winning more!  I'm not a great player and probably never will be but I'm having more fun when I actually can carry some battles and do more than my HP on most.

That means if you quit blaming, look in the mirror you could beat the "rigging" also.


Edited by Ironclad73, Nov 22 2017 - 07:27.


Slatherer #49 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 05:01

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Well OP, we can only focus on things we have control over.  You don't have control over MM, the playerbase and RNG.  But what you do have control over is your own skill.

 

I've looked up your stats, and it's not as bad as you think it is.  You are improving.  According to wotlabs.net, over the last 2 months, your WN8 has gone up over 100 points.  Your Win Rate over the last 2 months is 1% better than your total Win Rate.  In fact, all your stats are going up since your 2,777'th battle (you currently have 5853 battles total?).  You say that your last 45 games have been horrible, but that is NOT reflected in your stats. 

 

Now, according to noobmeter.com  you play ALOT.  Over the last 41 days, you have averaged 57 games per day?  Is that right?  Sometimes these websites are wrong.  But it looks like you play a variety of tanks, about 26 different tanks over the last 41 days.  IF you are playing that much, my observation is you are playing through losing streaks.  Most players don't do that.  They stop playing when the playerbase gets too bad (the playerbase skill level changes dramatically over the course of any day).  Other players know this and take breaks when it gets bad.  I know that might be hard if  you are grinding lines, but pace yourself.  Figure our when the better times of day to play.  

 

Your stats also indicate you have played a LOT of games in your G1 R, a medium tank.  However, you do better in SPGs.  You aren't playing to your strengths.     

 

The best advice I ever got in this game was to play tanks I was good at, not the ones I wanted to play.  Take a look at your stats, find the tanks you do the best in, and focus on playing those.

 

There really isn't any more to say.  Good luck!

 



Lurus #50 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 07:54

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View Postg4143, on Nov 21 2017 - 18:38, said:

I like how most blame me and don't consider the other 14 teammates. Remember this is a team game and I was on 40 losing teams(12 - 15 teams in a row) and 5 winning teams. When you consider that MM is supposed to choose teams which are approx. equal then it becomes highly unlikely to be on 40 losing teams out of 45 games.

 

​approximately equal what?  Sure maybe equal tier and the new matchmaking just implemented tries to balance types of tanks as well but there can be a big difference from one player in a type of tank to another player in the same type of tank and even the specific tanks even of the same type   As far as players go for instance if a light tank on one team is camping in the back and sniping and the one on the other team is actively scouting targets for their team to get damage on which team is more likely to win?

​The matchmaker doesn't use anything to determine teams beyond just alright I have a tier 7 medium here so the other team gets a tier 7 medium as well( or at least tries to) do something like this is my understanding.  It doesn't account for skill of the individual players or strengths/weaknesses of tanks ect.... thus its possible to have teams where its just completely uneven hence seeing games like 15-0 wins or losses now and again or games just over so fast you had no chance to influence the outcome but those should really be rare and when that happens you just gotta shake it off and move on.


​Sure it takes more then one player to win a game generally but if you are not fulfilling your role or carrying your own weight then a team can fail on the strength of just a few players in that game and sometimes that can be simply failing to do something like killing an enemy's gun sooner if you hit your shots or using your tanks own health pool to distract an enemy for a low health teammate and thus keeping them in the game which can be the difference between a close loss and a close win.
In my opinion in World of Tanks it is easier to lose on account of just a few players underperforming then it is to win on the strength of just a few players carrying.

​That said one player can definitely make a good influence on a game as far as winning and losing is concerned even without the ability to carry, and especially when they are a top tier tank.  If they individually don't preform at least their own weight the rest of the team often seems to fall like bricks without the mortar to glue it in place and this doesn't allow your teammates the time to preform their own necessary roles as well or buy them enough time to maybe relocate or w/e in that particular battle. 

​Some games will be losses no matter how well you preform individually but generally in my experience the first place to look in defeats and especially long strings of them is individually.  You cant control what your teammates do so look to the factors you can control which is you as the individual player. Maybe the tank just isn't working for your playstyle, maybe your playing it wrong, maybe your playing too passively or too aggressively and aren't influencing the individual battle either by dying too quickly to influence it or by not doing the damage needed until your team had already lost.  It could be many factors and even different factors depending on each game but if I lose I try and think about my own mistakes so I can avoid repeating them and learn from making them.  

​Sometimes too when I may be on a long losing streak I find it can be better for me to just quit for the day/night and just try again later because I have recently discovered that my own play really deteriorates when I am playing angry, frustrated, or just generally upset about some aspect of it. One thing is I tend to try too hard to make something happen so that's when I make a mistake or just like being so tense I cant think straight. 

Id rather waste a booster or not make complete use of a premium day when its not going well then just throwing myself into battle repeatedly and being a wasted tank for my team and making my frustrations worse and just being a drag to my team. Forcing myself to play for the sake of something like a booster/premium time or just the thought that it has to improve at some time is also often when I find myself mad at my team in team and/ or blaming them for my losing streak no matter how hard I may try to avoid placing this as its misguided blame when none of them were even in my games until now and it was totally on me not doing the damage needed out of say my tier 5 in a tier 3-5 match with only 3 tier 5s on each side.

When this happens I will step away from the game and just relax my brain and body before coming back and in some cases even take like month long breaks and come back refreshed and revitalized but that's just me of course I'm not telling anyone they have to quit for that long but I think something when angry or frustrated its best to take at least a short break.

​Just to be clear I don't necessarily just mean you OP but just generally for everyone and in my own experiences. 

  Players like Quickybaby and other top players I watch rarely if ever blame their teammates because they just know they have to work with what they got and when they lose the first question is what could I have done better and they occasionally may shout out an enemy whom they deemed to have a great game and it was out of their control which will happen.

 

 

 

My own recommendation if someone is finding something is a struggle and wanting to learn why and try and fix/improve like maybe a particular tank or map is causing the losses on a more consistent basis or just something about the play is costing the ability to carry your weight then it would be to ask a more experienced and veteran player for help or advice either in game maybe via a platoon where they can witness and offer advice firsthand or even something like posting up a replay about it or a question on the forum and maybe they can offer help or advice which make increase your level of enjoyment and who knows maybe help turn the losing streak into a winning streak because generally it can be hard to think about what could be improved or even realize if the specific map or tank is being played wrong when in the middle of it without the advice of someone more knowledgeable and I know for a fact these forums have some great and very helpful people as I have seen and also experienced it myself and a lot of things I see and read here help me learn as well.   

​good luck and hope some of this was useful  and don't take it personally as it was more general advice for anyone.


Edited by Lurus, Nov 22 2017 - 08:47.


Red_Ensign #51 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 09:01

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View Postg4143, on Nov 21 2017 - 19:19, said:

Yup! 40 loses to 5 wins and 12 - 15 of those loses were in a row! You could excuse this if it was a one time thing an anomaly but it isn't. These losing streaks happen all the time and the probability that its random is very unlikely. The game is rigged, its contrived, its programmed to behave this way.

 

looks like a 5000 game losing streak.

ff8ff8 #52 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 09:21

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OP, I would highly suggest reading the wiki and not playing anything above tier 5 for a few thousand battles until you get a basic understanding of how this game works.

Edited by ff8ff8, Nov 22 2017 - 09:22.


g4143 #53 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 11:43

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View Post__Arc__, on Nov 22 2017 - 04:21, said:

 

In other words: the OP is so bad, the rigged matchmaker can't function as intended, bringing me back to my original post where I said that, rigged or not, how you play can have a large impact on the battle.

 

But that doesn't explain the nights where I win the majority of my battles and generally finish in the top five for damage(for that to happen the MM would have to pick 30 players who I'm consistently better than all night). This is the point I'm trying to make here - the swings in extremes won't happen in a fair system and they happen all the time in wot.

Edited by g4143, Nov 22 2017 - 11:47.


uberdice #54 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 11:46

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View PostAbsolute, on Nov 22 2017 - 12:48, said:

 

Literally spells it out in WG's MM patent https://www.google.c...tents/US8425330 how they place losing players in a game that they're more likely to win and vice versa.

 

"matchmaking servers can assign players to sessions to provide players with varied gaming experiences without frustrating or boring the player. Battle sessions are balanced while the difficulty levels of the battle session for each player are controlled."

 

"According to another aspect, the matchmaking server may store a win/loss percentage for each user (or vehicle) at a given battle level. As the player's win/loss ratio decreases, the player becomes more likely to be placed in battles having battle levels at the lower end of the allowable range, whereas as the player's win/loss ration increases, the player becomes more likely to be placed in battles having battle levels at the upper end of the allowable range."

 

"Thus, when a player has been repeatedly put into too many difficult battles, the balancing is done in favor of easier battle sessions, thereby encouraging the player by providing an easier game environment. Similarly, when the player has been repeatedly put into too many easy battles, the balancing is done in favor of harder battle sessions, thereby keeping the player challenged instead of letting the player become bored with easy games. A first possible algorithm is to divide the permissible battle levels evenly across a range from zero (0) to two (2), and place the vehicle into the battle level corresponding to the win/loss ratio, where any ratio greater than two (2) automatically results in the vehicle being placed in the highest possible battle level. "

 

Making a player like OP top tier more often would actually make them lose more games.

g4143 #55 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 12:06

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View Postuberdice, on Nov 22 2017 - 11:46, said:

 

Making a player like OP top tier more often would actually make them lose more games.

 

But you have to understand I have nights where I win the majority of my battles and finish consistently in the top five for damage and that's the point. A player can't be consistently bad one night and consistently good another night without the game interfering with game play, the odds are too slim.

Edited by g4143, Nov 22 2017 - 12:06.


WangOnTheLoose #56 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 12:21

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View Postg4143, on Nov 21 2017 - 20:56, said:

Again you flatter me. You must think the whole team's outcome rests on my skill. I'm not blaming my team. I'm blaming the game.

 

​No what he is saying is that in every game you are in you might as well not even be there so that effectively your team only fights with, at the most, 14 tanks which obviously means any team you are on is less likely to win.  You are literally so bad that every time you hit battle you are screwing the other 14 players on your team.

 



uberdice #57 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 12:52

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View Postg4143, on Nov 22 2017 - 21:06, said:

 

But you have to understand I have nights where I win the majority of my battles and finish consistently in the top five for damage and that's the point. A player can't be consistently bad one night and consistently good another night without the game interfering with game play, the odds are too slim.

 

It literally doesn't matter how you perform in single sessions when you're talking about your overall performance. You might have good sessions, but if you take a good look at your numbers, those are by far the minority of sessions for you. Your average performance is so low that having you in a top tier tank is a crippling disadvantage to your teams. You occupying a top tier slot means that others, who aren't all in top tier slots, have to carry the majority of the weight that you represent.

 

No interference is necessary here. Your "good sessions" are outliers, and it's questionable as to what standard you are measuring them against. A string of "good sessions" for you might very well represent a catastrophically bad streak for any other player. Sure, you can get lucky and get fed by other horrifically bad players at least some of the time, but the numbers tell an entirely different story.

 

Just to pull out an example: in your average game in your highest tier tank, the AMX 50 100, you only do 5 more damage than I do in an average game in my Chi-Ha, a tier 3 light tank. And the AMX 50 100 is the only non-arty vehicle you have that actually scores higher than 300dpg. You have to understand that your average performance is so bad that every team you are in is effectively outnumbered before the match even starts.

 

You can point your finger at your teammates all you want, and sure, maybe they're not doing their part to help the team win, but guess, what? Neither are you, and you do less than them. What you are doing is sitting there blaming people for not carrying your dead weight hard enough, and the saddest part is that you appear to lack the capacity to understand that you are part of the problem you are complaining about.

 

In short: don't blame the game for your consistently poor performance resulting in you getting consistently poor results.



_Tsavo_ #58 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 13:08

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View Postg4143, on Nov 21 2017 - 20:23, said:

 

So you are saying it had nothing to do with the other 14 players on my team? You are claiming it was all me? You flatter me.

Well, given your stats history, your surely not helping teams your on win



Lesser_Spotted_Panzer #59 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 14:02

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Firstly, no one can deny that the biggest factor in determining the outcome of a game is the team composition. Sure, it may be selected by random, but if you get 15 good players against 15 bad players, the likely outcome is that the team with the best players will win.


 

Secondly, RNG is a huge factor in this game. I have had games where every shot fails to hit or pen, and had games where every shot hits and pens, even without aiming properly. Whether RNG is truly random, only WG knows, but I can tell you that when RNG is not with me, my team is more likely to lose than if RNG is in my favor.


 

If you assume MM and RNG are genuinely random, you have to expect to get streaks in each. You can also chose to believe that these streaks are due to a rigged system. As an engineer, I tend to take a fact based view. While for the most part I believe MM and RNG are random, I have found patterns that cannot be explained purely by statistical randomness, or in other words, the outcome is biased.


 



tow2_b #60 Posted Nov 22 2017 - 14:07

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View Postuberdice, on Nov 22 2017 - 06:52, said:

 

It literally doesn't matter how you perform in single sessions when you're talking about your overall performance. You might have good sessions, but if you take a good look at your numbers, those are by far the minority of sessions for you. Your average performance is so low that having you in a top tier tank is a crippling disadvantage to your teams. You occupying a top tier slot means that others, who aren't all in top tier slots, have to carry the majority of the weight that you represent.

 

No interference is necessary here. Your "good sessions" are outliers, and it's questionable as to what standard you are measuring them against. A string of "good sessions" for you might very well represent a catastrophically bad streak for any other player. Sure, you can get lucky and get fed by other horrifically bad players at least some of the time, but the numbers tell an entirely different story.

 

Just to pull out an example: in your average game in your highest tier tank, the AMX 50 100, you only do 5 more damage than I do in an average game in my Chi-Ha, a tier 3 light tank. And the AMX 50 100 is the only non-arty vehicle you have that actually scores higher than 300dpg. You have to understand that your average performance is so bad that every team you are in is effectively outnumbered before the match even starts.

 

You can point your finger at your teammates all you want, and sure, maybe they're not doing their part to help the team win, but guess, what? Neither are you, and you do less than them. What you are doing is sitting there blaming people for not carrying your dead weight hard enough, and the saddest part is that you appear to lack the capacity to understand that you are part of the problem you are complaining about.

 

In short: don't blame the game for your consistently poor performance resulting in you getting consistently poor results.

 

Exactly. OP, there's lots of things that can affect your game, battle by battle - but by far the first thing you need to address is how you are only dealing on average roughly a single shot of damage (220) with an average battle tier of 5. That's the core problem here - not MM, RNG, or anything else. What is it that's holding you back from doubling that average damage - or tripling it - or equaling (at minimum) your tank's HP in damage no matter what tier you're in? That should be your focus: figuring out how to stay alive longer and deal more damage and contribute to each battle, no matter what the lineup or green/red team makeup.

 

Most people that complain like this but have low performance like this don't really understand the game mechanics, so they die early & fast. Or shoot a lot and don't actually do anything for it. Etc. You could probably get a fair amount of advice & feedback by posting some replays and seeing what you don't know. Try that instead of of blaming everything else - see where it takes you...

 

And the concept that MM is the cause of a 5-40 slide is BS - the folks that trot out "the patent" as proof of something rigged causing this kind of streak seem to miss the point that if that system is being used, it would be trying to compensate your loss streak by placing you in easier and easier matches. So at some point, if the streak continues, we're back to the same problem: you. Let's work on that instead, yeah?

 

 






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