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Is WG really taking care of the cheaters?

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GRINCH7777 #61 Posted Jun 16 2018 - 05:33

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....plenty of players are using aimbots and the top suspects have tens of thousands of games with hit rates over 70%....NOT POSSIBLE with the games algorithm unless you are hitting ALL your snapshots......FL was full of these players racking up damage of 12/13/14/15K.....which may be possible with really good arty barrages and airstrikes but 55 shots fired and 50 hits?=aimbot user....

Springfield_Fats #62 Posted Jun 16 2018 - 08:03

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View Post_Tsavo_, on May 02 2018 - 02:48, said:

 

Hang on, lemme take a deep breath...

 

 

 

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

 

wow nice one man you sure owned him you said lol but with alot of os in bold literally epic

_Tsavo_ #63 Posted Jun 16 2018 - 19:44

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View PostSpringfield_Fats, on Jun 16 2018 - 02:03, said:

 

wow nice one man you sure owned him you said lol but with alot of os in bold literally epic

 

His post deserved nothing more.

crw1962 #64 Posted Jun 17 2018 - 00:15

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View PostGRINCH7777, on Jun 15 2018 - 23:33, said:

....plenty of players are using aimbots and the top suspects have tens of thousands of games with hit rates over 70%....NOT POSSIBLE with the games algorithm unless you are hitting ALL your snapshots......FL was full of these players racking up damage of 12/13/14/15K.....which may be possible with really good arty barrages and airstrikes but 55 shots fired and 50 hits?=aimbot user....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with you ...there are a lot of [edited]ters and Unicums that use aimbots. I do not agree with your statement about needing an aimbot to achieve a hit % of 70...my hit % is 72+ without the use of cheats.

70% is not exceptional. You just have to be willing to take the hit at times to make the shot. It is frustrating though when players pop out from behind an object and hit every shot on the move. Cheats used to be limited to the big unicum clans for the most part but now it seems like half the players use them.


Edited by crw1962, Jun 17 2018 - 00:23.


crw1962 #65 Posted Jun 17 2018 - 00:26

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View PostIsola_di_Fano, on Dec 12 2017 - 10:28, said:

 

Funny society we live in.

For some, the pride, the challenge if you will, is to find a way to cheat and mess other people' games.

And who cares about honesty since this is a game ... that is how some think ...

Some can turn off values and beliefs at will .. when it is convenient.

 

 

Well said.

crw1962 #66 Posted Jun 17 2018 - 00:42

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View Postbunnycaulk, on Dec 11 2017 - 16:04, said:

you guys will find its more rewarding to focus on your own game play, and not worry about what others are doing.  WG is aware and will take steps, believe me...

 

WG has had plenty of time to take steps....the money is still rolling in so why would they.

EmperorJuliusCaesar #67 Posted Jun 17 2018 - 08:09

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View PostZanarkand_C, on Dec 11 2017 - 11:28, said:

Today I came across this video and I found it just crazy. Someone had live streamed their cheating with about 200 viewers and they are not banned? Also being a CO of a clan... that would just lead me to believe this clan things it's completely acceptable to cheat since the CO is doing it.

 

I am personally against ALL forms of mods and would rather WG not let any mods be allowed at all. To me that just seems like the best and easiest way to help reduce cheating in the game. I don't run any mods at all cause I feel the way the game ships (downloads) is how the creators intended the game to be played and I will play it this way.

 

But anyway lol I hope this thread gets attention cause I for one would like to see people like the fellow dandy in this video removed from the game and to top it off, that clan should not be able to participate in this current event.

 

Some clans demand that you use illegal mods or they will kick you.  I know because some that left because they wouldn't risk their account came to my clan, EOR. 

Illegal mods are more popular than many will acknowledge.  All you gotta do is google the sites and check the download counters for the newest versions.  Every single one is in the 10s of thousands.  But people like to deny reality and claim they don't exist or the download counters aren't real, such a joke.

Removing mods has killed other games, WG knows this and has commented about it.  The know that removing mods will in no way get rid of illegal modding.  People can just edit the game files, it's not hard to do.  So removing mods would just remove players and remove our ability to customize the game slightly to our liking. 

The game comes with the ability to have mods, that's what they intended.  We even have a folder for them etc.



EmperorJuliusCaesar #68 Posted Jun 17 2018 - 08:11

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View Postrich73, on Dec 11 2017 - 11:36, said:

I watched a vid once of a guy doing 10 k damage and not scoping in on one shot.Even one shot looked like it went over the horizon for a kill.This was 2 years ago.That W G continues to leave the mod door open and allow cheaters is totally on W G.They know this is possible yet they allow it.Token bans only mean they will make another account and means we have to play with cheaters who if caught,only get caught after cheating.W G needs a lesson but sadly the player base doesnt stand together being tied to their wallets.

 

The "mod door" has nothing to do with this.  Cheaters will just modify the game files to do the same things. 

Removing mods has killed other games, WG knows this and has commented about it.  The know that removing mods will in no way get rid of illegal modding.  People can just edit the game files, it's not hard to do.  So removing mods would just remove players and remove our ability to customize the game slightly to our liking. 



I_AM_Diablo #69 Posted Jun 17 2018 - 11:47

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I would love to know the actual number of cheaters per non-cheaters in game.  Gives you a good estimate of how many "bots" are playing in game.  Players that cheat should be just considered "bots" as they don't bring any personality to the game.

 

I used to run a Team Fortress 2 server using a mod created by AlliedModders called SourceMod.   I had created plugins in C++ and in their scripting language SourcePawn.   I ran that server for 5 years before I got tired of running the server and wanted to move into programming handhelds.  I've created some very strong server based anti-cheat mods for Team Fortress 2.  I had tested by buying the real cheats and running them on a computer I didn't care about.  I would then create the anti-cheat based on that computer.  The system worked too well.   By the time that Team Fortress 2 has been 2 years old, I had noticed a large population of cheaters.  One of the famous cheats called LAMOBOX for which I had beaten; even the paid version!  LAMOBOX had both a free version and a paid version.   I was able to beat the free version very easy because in the free version it would advertise itself while the player was using it.   The paid version wouldn't and you'd have to follow the cursor movements to figure-out if they was cheating or not.  There is also code I modified that detected wall-hacks.

 

How did I stop cheaters?   Initially I banned them.   Since creating a new account was free, they'd just go create a new account and play again!   After a month of seeing repeat offenders come back to my server... I decided to do something different.   I decided to "handicap" the players that are known cheaters and making them figure out if they was detected by my system.   I would apply special anti-wall hacking, randomly throw their cursor in another direction, randomly reduce damage they would do, randomly reduce their armor, etc.   I got really good at making my system reduce the effectiveness of their hacks that most of them would leave the server or create another account without the hack.

 

Here is my AlliedModders Account: https://forums.alliedmods.net/member.php?u=230774

 

Just know I never released my anti-hack technology.  I have released some anti-cheat plugins.   Here is a full list of all the plug-ins I created for SourceMod: http://www.sourcemod.net/plugins.php?cat=0&mod=-1&title=&author=El+Diablo+War3Evo&description=&search=1

 

 

If WOT developers are handicapping the cheaters, then if they banned them... they'd loose that person as a known cheater for which they handicapped.  That person could just create a new account and play again!  I am not sure if they use that method or not.  If people are saying they are not banning players, then maybe they are handicapping known cheaters?

 


Edited by I_AM_Diablo, Jun 17 2018 - 11:51.


GRINCH7777 #70 Posted Jun 19 2018 - 20:33

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View Postcrw1962, on Jun 16 2018 - 17:15, said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with you ...there are a lot of [edited]ters and Unicums that use aimbots. I do not agree with your statement about needing an aimbot to achieve a hit % of 70...my hit % is 72+ without the use of cheats.

70% is not exceptional. You just have to be willing to take the hit at times to make the shot. It is frustrating though when players pop out from behind an object and hit every shot on the move. Cheats used to be limited to the big unicum clans for the most part but now it seems like half the players use them.

 

......LOL....I believe its possible but VERY difficult to have 70% without aimbots and it is exceptional,,,the snap shots hits cannot be done consistently without an aimbot ...... 

Edited by GRINCH7777, Jun 19 2018 - 20:35.


_Tsavo_ #71 Posted Jun 19 2018 - 20:55

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I swear, there must be aimbots in my soup at this rate!

Nunya_000 #72 Posted Jun 19 2018 - 22:30

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View PostGRINCH7777, on Jun 15 2018 - 20:33, said:

....plenty of players are using aimbots and the top suspects have tens of thousands of games with hit rates over 70%....NOT POSSIBLE with the games algorithm unless you are hitting ALL your snapshots......FL was full of these players racking up damage of 12/13/14/15K.....which may be possible with really good arty barrages and airstrikes but 55 shots fired and 50 hits?=aimbot user....

 

I have a 67.3% hit percentage and have never used an aimbot (only use a gun sight mod in-game).  I could probably easily hit over 70% if I was more careful with my shots.



FearTheBadger #73 Posted Jun 20 2018 - 18:28

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how does one even know somebody is cheating and if so how would that be caught by WG

Nunya_000 #74 Posted Jun 20 2018 - 18:55

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View PostFearTheBadger, on Jun 20 2018 - 09:28, said:

how does one even know somebody is cheating and if so how would that be caught by WG

 

If they kill me in a battle, then it is quite obvious that they are cheating.

george68 #75 Posted Jun 20 2018 - 19:52

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he never forgot why he would start now. the only thing that you just passed was your money

_Tsavo_ #76 Posted Jun 20 2018 - 19:56

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View PostNunya_000, on Jun 20 2018 - 12:55, said:

 

If they kill me in a battle, then it is quite obvious that they are cheating.

 

I have a 28% survival rate, so in roughly 72% of my games, someone cheated because they killed me!

 

 

Cheatsssssss!  Everywhere!



pish180 #77 Posted Jun 21 2018 - 05:52

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I always laugh when I hear people say.  "It's a server based game you can't cheat".  It just makes me realize how software and security ignorant people really are.  Using the Server-based model does reduce the ability to do many hacks where data is reliant on the client data such as health hacks, ammo hacks, etc, but there are still a lot of hacks.   Turret directions, Reload time counters, Enemy shot prediction, location hacks (aka wallhacks), weak spot auto aim bots, aimbot lead prediction,  cracking RNG algorithm (Seed values) for accuracy deviation (aka spam aim hacks), Lag hacks (to make the server favor your client's information). 

 

Some articles that explain more about server-based games. 

http://www.gabrielga...chitecture.html

https://www.reddit.c..._tickrate_mean/

https://gafferongame...ver_connection/

 

 

I will also note you can really tell in the "Football" mode how latency affects the gameplay.  You will immediately be able to see this at the faceoff of the game (not all games but most).  Spamming the shoot button you will sometimes get your shot off before your opponent T62 and vice-versa.  This is a big reason why MANY games that have high transactions rates have multiple regional servers (specifically Rocket League) in a single country.  West Coast, East Coast, vs just Central (USA example).  This "levels/evens" the latency between players (assuming they are playing in their regions).  This is important because server based games have to get information from clients based on "state" and changes and these updates have effects on how and more importantly WHEN the Server updates other clients.  While ultimately the server makes the decision (of a hit, penetration, damage amount, etc) it relies on both parties involved to provide updates.  Many servers will have a grace period for higher latency players to make the game more "seamless" (pretty sure WG does this), what this really means is is your ping is 150 ms you might not actually notice its running like complete trash because the server is actually waiting for your packets.  If you can image 2 tanks in battle 1 is firing and then after firing, they want to reverse behind cover to prevent being shot their latency is normally 50ms.  So if they tweak the timing in which the packet is held before being sent to the server (say 150ms - within the grace period).  Once the other tank fires that client sends the response over within 50ms (that users latency), the server receives and then has to validate that Tank 2 is in that location.  The total transaction now had to wait an extra 100ms (150ms vs 50ms normal) for the server to confirm the hit.  Not only can the wait time for responses have grace periods so does do movements, shots, etc.  It's almost unfathomable for us to comprehend how quickly and how much impacts these tiny changes affect high transaction games.  You are talking million seconds for many of these shots to calculate the exact angle of impact, generate a number to determine penetration and then calculate damage dealt.  The grace period can also wait for the other clients to confirm or post their new location this could mean traversing the armor.  Now image you can traverse a medium tank 40* a second, You are not telling the server 40 times a second that you traversed a single degree each second.  That is where this grace period comes in.  In many games, you can see this as speed hacks because it is exploiting all the grace periods and Max accepted values that the server will accept for speed/location changes.  This essentially is a way to exploit/hack to give favorable networking. If WOT works like this you can essentially active a lag hack after firing a round hoping that the server values you update will be favorable by maximizing the timeframe to submit.  This doesn't always work in the cheater's favor but does give them a slight advantage... and that is what WOT is all about, slight advantages (2.5% here, 5% here, 20% here for perks, skills, consumables). 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia..._lag/lag_switch

QUOTE under Lag Hacks: 

"In this method, the cheater runs an application on a computer connected to the same network as the client. The application hogs the network bandwidth, disrupting the communication between the client and its server. However, one cannot do this for an unlimited amount of time. At some point, if no traffic is being received, most game clients and/or game servers will decide that the connection has been lost and will remove the player from the game."

 

Quote under Client-Server Model:

"Packet interception, tampering & manipulation
The security of game software can be circumvented by intercepting and/or manipulating data in real-time while in transit from the client to the server or vice versa (i.e. a man-in-the-middle attack). Interception can be passive or result in active manipulation; either methodology[vague][ambiguous] can be performed on the client machine itself or via an external communication proxy; some aimbots incorporate this methodology.[vague][ambiguous]"

 

 

Outside of exploiting this, you can see with many experienced players have become "used to" how the WOT server-client exchange system works.  I've seen this in many replays posted by top Twitch WOT streamers.   Prefiring over ridges, track shots, snapshots, etc, with a high confidence they will be successful.  I'm not saying at all they are hacking, that is knowing the game mechanics.  So my point here is not all players that may seem like they are hacking are hacking, they just know the game mechanics.  But there is always a chance and its near impossible to prove lag hacking. 

 

Just to be clear I'm not saying WOT works in the exact way I described, it is an example that is relevant to other games.  I'm not 100% sure how WOT implements their networking between clients-servers or their grace periods... if someone knows that would be nice to share but I'm guessing its proprietary and a company secret.  I will say that a lot of hackers have a lot of time to figure out these grace periods and create some simple code to exploit the model.  

 

That all being said... I've already stated this in many of many posts.  WOT and WG are hurting with raw numbers of players, especially in the USA and they do NOT want to ban accounts that are active, let alone spending money or have spent money.  I don't think WOT or WG is doing much if anything to stop cheating, prevent cheating, stop griefing, etc, etc.  Companies that really care about their communities usually announce pubic ban numbers.  For example, PUGB did a ban and posted an article: 

 

https://kotaku.com/p...nth-1822741674 

 

The problem is WG doesn't really give a $@# about the community and ESPECIALLY THE NA community because it the smallest and it is DYING very quickly.  2 things are undeniable... for the game to survive it has to have players and it has to make WG money.  You can't make money if you lose all the players so Players are key.  I personally think their main focus is on exploiting loyal/hooked players and keeping them hooked.  This is the reason why they are putting the 360 days of Premium Time on sale right now.  They want to hook players in for a long time.  There are some many signs of this player retention struggle its crazy (more than I care to explain in here but 3/5/7 MatchMaking is just one of them).   Now their hooking people mode works very well... It is working against me right now.  All things emotionally tell me to quit playing this broken game but I've spent so much money on the game, I have Premium Time so I feel compelled to keep playing to progress despite the bad.  Now the game does have its enjoyable moments (like admiring the graphics of the tanks from my garage, LOL jk) and it can still be fun.  WG exploits this and keeps this model going because it would be too much work to invest in a rework of the game model.  I believe 1 of 3 things are going to happen, 1. WG has checked out and is just Milking WOT for every last penny and has the intention to spend the minimal amount in game dev until it eventually dies.  2.  They eventually listen to the community and redesign the game model to encourage player retention (remove Pay-To-Win).  3. WOT just does in NA and all efforts are moves to EU/RU until it eventually dies there.   In summary, if WG was to EVER fancy community suggestions it won't be from the NA community it would be RU or EU.   Sad but showing WG track record they only care about your $$ and keeping as many players as possible. 



pish180 #78 Posted Jun 21 2018 - 06:19

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View PostFearTheBadger, on Jun 20 2018 - 12:28, said:

how does one even know somebody is cheating and if so how would that be caught by WG

 

That's the problem with Client-Server models.  This is why WG says: The game will never be 100% cheater free.  Lag hacks are next to impossible to detect let alone ban someone over.  If you had something that logged latency spikes and ran algorithms against them over time you might be able to determine that after every shot this player has a lag spike.  But do you know how much money and effort that kind of system would take to monitor all the packets, log them and crunch the billions of logs, then make a definitive determination of hacking?  WAY TO FKN MUCH.  Just detecting latency anomalies without history could be someone playing on Wifi and having a lag spike or something normal and you can't ban someone because their internet is slow.   The logging and retention would be key there.  That being said lag hacks aren't always guaranteed to be beneficial for the hacker.   

 

2nd. 

WG has to decide how much information to provide to your client, players made mods to more efficiently take advantage of all this data that the server is sending you.  That is why all these mods are created.  There is other information the server is sending your client that can be used with illegal mods but with a client-server model, they would have to run a watcher process (something like Punk Buster).  Once you get into apps that watch memory for execution of processes, you get into a lot of privacy and legal issues.  I know in the EU that is a big no, no.  The US is pretty bad as well.  So implementing this system WOT WorldWide would be an issue.  Then you would have to maintain different systems, WOT doesn't want to spend the money on investing in a real anti-cheat system.  Also restricting what the server sends to clients is another HUGE redesign and would have increased latency concerns, which might mean having to add more localized regional game servers which would further breakout the number of players... again they can't do that either. 


Edited by pish180, Jun 21 2018 - 06:43.






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