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Bad form/Wrong-strategy on my part, or ignore the battle Trolls?

strategy choosing your role protect base lemming rush collapsed flanks chess mini-map sniper/sniping old fart trolling

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ChaosKampf #21 Posted Jan 04 2018 - 19:47

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View PostChalybos, on Jan 04 2018 - 11:04, said:

You can check your stats here, and sort them according to whichever criteria you're looking for.  https://clantools.us...s?id=1028225445

Use it to see where you are compared to the average in your tanks, what type of tank suits you best.

I also like this one, to see how things played out over the course of an evening>  http://na.wotzilla.c...ails/ChaosKampf

 

Those two sites definitely puts things in perspective. I guess I should have asked about this much earlier, because the frequency of what feels like "good" games to me, doesn't hold up when you look at the overall picture. Bad thing is, some of the best stats that I have on those lists are Tanks that I didn't like playing.

 

I'll start playing my Sniper-type Tanks/TD's more aggressively, since concealment and sniping are more fun to me. From what I'm seeing on the stats, it's mainly caused by my concentrating on a nearly pure overwatch role, taking the shots that are presented to me while doing so, instead of actively "hunting". I should be able to find a strategically acceptable (to me), balance where I can be more aggressive, but still be able to get back to the Arty when they need help. I know there are at least two or three spots on most of the maps where I can do both things, so I'll start memorizing and using them.



Chalybos #22 Posted Jan 04 2018 - 21:35

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View PostChaosKampf, on Jan 04 2018 - 13:47, said:

 

Those two sites definitely puts things in perspective. I guess I should have asked about this much earlier, because the frequency of what feels like "good" games to me, doesn't hold up when you look at the overall picture. Bad thing is, some of the best stats that I have on those lists are Tanks that I didn't like playing.

 

I'll start playing my Sniper-type Tanks/TD's more aggressively, since concealment and sniping are more fun to me. From what I'm seeing on the stats, it's mainly caused by my concentrating on a nearly pure overwatch role, taking the shots that are presented to me while doing so, instead of actively "hunting". I should be able to find a strategically acceptable (to me), balance where I can be more aggressive, but still be able to get back to the Arty when they need help. I know there are at least two or three spots on most of the maps where I can do both things, so I'll start memorizing and using them.

 

Please allow me to give you a couple of items for thought, as someone who plays tanks in the following order of preference: arty, TDs, heavies, meds, lights (and with me being barely "meh" in meds and terrible in lights).

 

Hanging around the base with the thoughts of "But we need someone to secure the base" leaves your front-line and mid-line tanks down 1, right off the bat.  Maybe you're thinking that the impact would be minimal, but I've seen tanks with double-digit HP's left proceed to kill another 3 tanks before being removed from the field.  One more shot would have taken them off the map, and kept the others from dying, but he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day is especially relevant in this game regarding individual skirmishes.  If someone's duking it out with another tank and you're thinking that you don't want to steal the kill, stop that thought and crush it - there's no kill stealing, give a brother a hand.  Never know, that guy may be down a loader and ammo racked, praying somebody will give him a hand.

 

If the enemy makes it to your base, they either a) went through your tanks already, or b) went around your tanks.  Neither of those things happen successfully very often, at least not early in a match.  If that happens, there's still a minute and a half for someone fast (or mediocre) to make it back to reset.  Load up the HE and reset then.  

 

If your concern is protecting arty ... as an arty main I will say that a friendly gun playing forward, lighting and taking out their tanks will usually serve better than a tank hanging back near arty.  Arty is slow to move.  And squishy.  It doesn't take much to remove us from the field, and if we're lit, we're hit, because half the time enemy arty will get us when we try to run, and the other half of the time we're dead when Sixth Sense goes off anyway, because of the aforementioned squishyness.  

As much as I appreciate someone running interference if an enemy makes a break for it - and I really, REALLY appreciate when a stranger in a pubmatch does that - I don't expect or want someone just babysitting arty.  Doesn't do them any good since they're not getting any damage out (no damage, no spotting, no assists, no XP, no credits), doesn't teach them anything, and as I said, it takes a gun out of the equation based on a maybe attack that may or may not happen and may or may not even be effective.  

 

Last thought, how often do you check the minimap?  I'd suggest a quick peek whenever you're not actively shooting or aiming, as well as before you roll out to reposition.  



Nunya_000 #23 Posted Jan 04 2018 - 22:07

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View PostChaosKampf, on Jan 04 2018 - 10:23, said:

 

In most games that I play strictly as overwatch/sniper, yes, especially with the S1 and good Scouts. And I do move around quite a bit to get shots, but without getting far enough from the Arty/Base that I can't get back quick enough to try to stop a scout or TD that slipped through and popped up out of nowhere.

 

And as far as the trolling and negative comments go, It's not that I have a problem ignoring them, or even that it bothers me. The reason I finally made a Post about it is because it happens enough that I was beginning to wonder if some of those trolls had good reason to bash me. I'm enough of a team-player that I don't want to negatively affect gameplay, but at the same time, I don't understand the "mentality/strategy" of everybody taking off and leaving the base and artillery unsupported.

 

The cap circle does not need anybody to protect it.  Arty does not need anybody to protect it.  A scout or TD is not going to pop out of nowhere.  If you watch your mini-map regularly, you will most likely see them as they are moving towards your cap.  The maps are not big enough that you need to worry about getting too far from the cap circle.

 

So, if you are not getting shots in through pretty much the WHOLE battle, and are mainly focused on protecting the cap circle or arty, then YES, their complaints might be valid.



ChaosKampf #24 Posted Jan 05 2018 - 06:17

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View PostChalybos, on Jan 04 2018 - 14:35, said:

Last thought, how often do you check the minimap?  I'd suggest a quick peek whenever you're not actively shooting or aiming, as well as before you roll out to reposition.  

 

Constantly. To the point that entirely too many of my deaths occur because towards the end of the round a TD suddenly appears, seemingly out of nowhere, and one-shots me before I even have time to move my attention from the mini-map, to the big picture. Sometimes it is because of lag in the game, but I rarely have any issues with lag, so most of the time it is 100% my fault.

 

Another nearly instant death for me that happens too often, is because I'm watching the mini-map and advancing at the same time, trying to judge the "last known position" markers, relative to my view range circle, while at the same time attempting to find a spot of cover where the edge of my circle just overlaps their marker, but doesn't light them. Then after setting long enough for the binoculars to kick in, I can generally get the shot, or at least find what rock they're partially hidden by. I have gotten burnt by that tactic often enough that I've pretty much quit trying to do it. Especially if I'm playing the S1, because if they're any good at all, or have better view-range than I do, they'll take me out, or at least track me, before I can even get the S1 into siege-mode, much less get them in my reticle.

 

100% my fault, I know, and while it often works if the "surprised" person is the other player, more often than not it ends up being someone who is pointed in the right direction and ready to drop the hammer on me. It basically amounts to me falling for my own preferred type of game-play (Karma, I suppose).

 

I finally had some time today to play through most of my Tanks, and do it much more aggressively, as you have all suggested. I did have better results than usual with some of them, especially with the S1 and the m/42-57, although playing the front line with the S1 drives home the fact that you have to be really quick with the siege-mode button. 



scharnhorst310 #25 Posted Jan 05 2018 - 06:35

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It looks like you have thick skin which is good. You also seem ok with being critical on yourself, also good. Knowing that, understand I'm not here to coddle anyone, so I hope you appreciate that. 

 

You have no business playing in tier 8s. Higher tiers don't just mean big boomstick, you face better players, and a different style of gameplay... mistakes you make mean death very quickly. I'd suggest stick to tier 5 as that is a very good intermediate level arena. It isn't so low tier that you pick up bad habits and doesn't have a vastly different gameplay style than higher tiers (not to mention tier 5 is great for credits and getting crew xp). Trust me, getting pummeled in the face in tier 8 isn't going to make you better. 

 

I see your logic in how you approach matches, but frankly you don't have the knowledge and experience yet to trust your own judgement in high level thought like that. You waste your time, which makes you play worse. You have to break things down into simpler approaches, as you begin to master them, then you start to think high level. What I mean by that is; this type of thinking "well i go middle, try to snipe, i see things going on i sit somewhere, i see flank fail I think about if I should go there or not, etc etc etc." Simpler is better. A gun either not distracting the enemy or doing damage is a useless gun. If you ain't firing, you ain't contributing. 

 

Every team goes into a battle with a hitpoint pool of all the tanks on the team combined. If you don't do damage, thats your team down 14v15. Baby steps, you have to learn how to your own HP in damage each game... and hopefully learn how to do that damage in meaningful ways; aka not from the back of the map. Why... because guess what, most games are won and loss on a flank, people around your ability watch the battle unfold and are out of position to really contribute; what happens when that flank folds you end up facing more peeps than you can handle and get wiped nice and fast. The goal is to stop that from happening. 

 

I've trained hundreds and hundreds of players; just keep it simple for right now. You don't have to be on the front lines, but you can be on the second level of the front lines, right behind the main group. Also I would suggest you turn replay recording on; take some time to review your games. You already got a critical eye, go back and look at what you would do again if you could. 

 

I'm not sure yet if this type of video will help you much. I've done a few of these to guy of illustrate my thought process as I go through a battle. 


Edited by scharnhorst310, Jan 05 2018 - 06:43.


ToothDecay #26 Posted Jan 05 2018 - 06:49

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OP:

You have under 2K battles.  Go easy on yourself.  It takes time and stupid moves before you are OK with the maps, spots to go for your playstyle, etc.

Just understand, IF you are Top Tier, either be a top tier, or be prepared to be ridiculed.

REASONS:  I do not XVM, so I have no way of knowing your abilities, etc........

I seem to recall announcing "I am noob", something along those lines.

I feel I am an average player so..........

Take your time, and unless you actually USE chat during the actual battle, don't look at it, maybe even turn it off.

This game CAN be hard enough at times, without ppl yelling about you and you are seeing it.

Hope this Wallotext™ was helpful.

.

Carry on.

 



ChaosKampf #27 Posted Jan 05 2018 - 07:39

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View Postscharnhorst310, on Jan 04 2018 - 23:35, said:

I'm not sure yet if this type of video will help you much. I've done a few of these to guy of illustrate my thought process as I go through a battle. 

 

 

Yeah it helps. That's the best "tutorial by example" video I've seen yet. I've mainly been watching quickybabys YouTube videos, mainly because he doesn't seem to be doing it just to brag, like most of the other YouTube WOT guys I've watched, and also because he does give a lot of examples of the strengths and weaknesses of each Tank. He doesn't do much actual explaining of why he's doing what he's doing during gameplay though. You fully explained your reasoning all the way through the video, and seeing an example like yours makes the "Why" of what you're doing easily understandable. Thanks for posting it, I'll have to see if I can find any more of your vids now.

 

And as far as me having a "thick skin", that comes from being nearly 50yrs old, having raised three daughters, and spending 12yrs as a Jobsite Foreman trying to "Herd" Apprentices and uncooperative Journeymen 40-50 hours a week. I'm retired now, so when it's too cold to do any of my real-life hobbies like Benchrest and Sporting Clays, this game is as good 'a time killer as anything else.



Pongo #28 Posted Jan 05 2018 - 18:35

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Putting to much thought into it, your whole issue is that you miss 30% to many shots. If you fix that you will be a 50% player then work from there. 

Dain_Ironfoot_ #29 Posted Jan 05 2018 - 18:39

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You are still learning, ignore the cry babies... but all of us have those bad games where we get in a bad spot.  However, the key to doing better is helping your team before they get into too much trouble, before those flanks collapse, etc.  It takes experience to be able to look and see when that will happen before it actually does.  It's a combination of your teams positioning, tank composition, skill, timing, etc...

 

If nothing else, try to be in a position to closely support your team, at least from behind, while they are fighting instead of being in a spot where you really won't be able to help sufficiently until it is too late.  Take a hit or two if you have enough hit points left, then back to safety, to help other team members stay alive.  It will help win the game in many cases.


Edited by Thrain_Ironsword, Jan 05 2018 - 18:43.


scharnhorst310 #30 Posted Jan 05 2018 - 18:56

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View PostChaosKampf, on Jan 04 2018 - 22:39, said:

 

Yeah it helps. That's the best "tutorial by example" video I've seen yet. I've mainly been watching quickybabys YouTube videos, mainly because he doesn't seem to be doing it just to brag, like most of the other YouTube WOT guys I've watched, and also because he does give a lot of examples of the strengths and weaknesses of each Tank. He doesn't do much actual explaining of why he's doing what he's doing during gameplay though. You fully explained your reasoning all the way through the video, and seeing an example like yours makes the "Why" of what you're doing easily understandable. Thanks for posting it, I'll have to see if I can find any more of your vids now.

 

And as far as me having a "thick skin", that comes from being nearly 50yrs old, having raised three daughters, and spending 12yrs as a Jobsite Foreman trying to "Herd" Apprentices and uncooperative Journeymen 40-50 hours a week. I'm retired now, so when it's too cold to do any of my real-life hobbies like Benchrest and Sporting Clays, this game is as good 'a time killer as anything else.

 

I'm sure then it isn't too surprising to you to hear that many people view themselves as above criticism... I mean its astounding to me how many people say they want to learn, but at the same time won't admit they're not very good; and will fight you trying to help them. To me that is astonishing. 

 

The number one tool that I think a person has to have is an ability to think critically, both about themselves and the situations their in. I learned this game by 1st knowing I was bad, I had zero issue saying it and owning it. 2nd i'd think back after each match just for a minute or two to think about what I would do again if I could do it over. That's all. At the time we didn't have quickybaby (personally not a huge fan of, but he does know all the numbers on tanks), or youtube stars, streamers, wotreplays, etc. 

 

The fun part to me of this game is that high level thinking you are trying. That is where this game gets interesting. Do you go or not go, do you help a flank or do you run to try and get into a better position, where do you go based on the tank composition and/or player skills. But these things take time. Better to focus on the little things, get those right. Take a replay of just a normal game for you, and send it to me, i'll review it and give you a more personalized analysis of what you could do better on. 


Edited by scharnhorst310, Jan 05 2018 - 18:58.


Nitrah #31 Posted Jan 05 2018 - 21:43

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Save and upload a few of your replays and then post the links. Watch them again, and do a quick summary of each saying what you were thinking, when.

 

I suspect that your now battle count and tendency to comment about "overwatch" means that you are overwatching places that aren't doing anything for your team.

 

Let us see what you actually do, and we can tell you how to do it better.



Tongates #32 Posted Jan 06 2018 - 00:16

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Welcome to WoT.

 

Your doing great. keep up the good work. Your comments of map-watching are very encouraging.

 

Ya may wanna consider turning messaging off. Haven't had any complaints since turning messaging off. Only friends-listers can message me now.

 

Since Wargaming took cross-chat away, the game when extra toxic. Whiners have turned on their teammates now that they can't spew off on the opposition. Haven't used in-game chat for over a year. Haven't missed it either. The map tells me all I need to know.  :)



Chalybos #33 Posted Jan 06 2018 - 22:09

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View PostTongates, on Jan 05 2018 - 18:16, said:

Welcome to WoT.

 

Your doing great. keep up the good work. Your comments of map-watching are very encouraging.

 

Ya may wanna consider turning messaging off. Haven't had any complaints since turning messaging off. Only friends-listers can message me now.

 

Since Wargaming took cross-chat away, the game when extra toxic. Whiners have turned on their teammates now that they can't spew off on the opposition. Haven't used in-game chat for over a year. Haven't missed it either. The map tells me all I need to know:)

 

Yes and no. If I drop an arty round on a tank and it goes dark, I'll still get input as to whether they're taking damage.  It's supposed to be a "team game", at least in the theory that your team is fighting their team, so if someone else drops a shot on that target, I'll type the additional damage that they take in chat.  Lets the TD or whoever is still firing know they hit their mark, and maybe they can get another shot in before the stun or tracked timer runs out - win for them in extra damage, win for me in extra assist, loss for the enemy in additional HPs.  No chat means they ain't getting that update.

Another example, say I'm bottom tier heavy and not pushing with the top tiers, because I noticed that nobody else went to cover the Western road on Cliff, so I went to provide eyes for the two TD's parked further back on that line.  BAM!, I get tagged by an enemy Jagdpanzer, but I got lucky and bounced it.  They won't know.  Hell, they won't even see my HPs drop if I bounce it.  But if I tell the team "Enemy JP West road by houses", there's a chance that somebody else will acknowledge it.  It arty gives me an affirmative and marks that they're aiming in that area, I'm more inclined to try to get a peek in before the JP can reload.  I've seen more than a few enemy TDs who thought they were safe back there get themselves nuked by arty and TDs that they didn't know were looking their way in that spot, but without any comms between teammates, you're taking the opportunity to reap the benefits right off the table.  Grow a thicker skin, and apply the blacklist when someone pisses you off, and you still have the possibility of learning better play, gaining additional intel on the enemy, and maybe picking up some new tactics.  Ignore any input from everyone you don't already know?  All that guarantees is that you'll never increase your knowledge base, never improve your gameplay, and never get input from anyone at all, bad AND good.

Do I like it when someone gets wrecked and sends me a tearstained letter because I dropped an arty shell on them?  No, but it doesn't bother me either.  I'll send them back something equally salty and then blacklist them, guaranteeing that next time I see them they get to go to the front of the target line.  Because I know it's going to tick them off when they try to send me a message that next time and can't, that will provide me with a little amusement, I'll be honest.  Do I like it when the scout on my team sends me a "GG, I got 5500 spotting, thanks," and I was responsible for 3500 of that damage?  Hell yeah, those thank you notes make me feel glad that I was able to reward their good scouting with the payout they deserved.  Which do you think I get more of?  And which do you think actually make an impression on me?  I'd rather not remove either, for the reasons above.



Slim_Shadee #34 Posted Jan 06 2018 - 22:31

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Two issues are one a majority of the insults about what your in and how they think you should play dont have a clue about the tank your in. Playing heavy as a sniper will always result in some comments. Because again if its a thin skinned heavy designed to be second tier support they dont have a clue. All/many of the knobs in the game see heavy and expect you to brawl. If you are playing Destroyer sniping you are wasting the tank an the slot.

 

Second issue is many of the knobs playing this game die an immediately scan the map pinging anyone they can blame for their stupid play. Then the numb nuts proceed to fill chat with their personal evaluation of everyone else s play. Just Blacklist those people as they are a cancer on the game. Same idiots that feel the need to drop a line in chat like: Morons, idiots, another crap team an so on.

 

So far as grammar, verbage and spelling. That tells me you have an issue an may with your comments be tossing gas on a fire.



uberdice #35 Posted Jan 06 2018 - 22:59

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View PostSlim_Shadee, on Jan 07 2018 - 07:31, said:

Two issues are one a majority of the insults about what your in and how they think you should play dont have a clue about the tank your in. Playing heavy as a sniper will always result in some comments. Because again if its a thin skinned heavy designed to be second tier support they dont have a clue. All/many of the knobs in the game see heavy and expect you to brawl. If you are playing Destroyer sniping you are wasting the tank an the slot.

 

Second issue is many of the knobs playing this game die an immediately scan the map pinging anyone they can blame for their stupid play. Then the numb nuts proceed to fill chat with their personal evaluation of everyone else s play. Just Blacklist those people as they are a cancer on the game. Same idiots that feel the need to drop a line in chat like: Morons, idiots, another crap team an so on.

 

So far as grammar, verbage and spelling. That tells me you have an issue an may with your comments be tossing gas on a fire.

 

You call people a lot of names and insult their intelligence, but you are one of those players who are actively detrimental to every team you're on. Maybe a bit of self-reflection and honest analysis of your own play would do wonders to explain why you're getting negative comments from other players.

ChaosKampf #36 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 01:14

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View PostPongo, on Jan 05 2018 - 11:35, said:

Putting to much thought into it, your whole issue is that you miss 30% to many shots. If you fix that you will be a 50% player then work from there. 

 

Again, my fault, but I just realized this morning that a couple of the long-range shots I took were actually hitting the ground, or cover of some sort, because I could see nothing but the lit-up outline. The other player didn't know where I was at, so I moved forward while still in siege mode (In S1), and once I got a clear view through the bushes, I could see that the only thing showing from his hull-down position were the view ports on the other tank. Pretty bad that it took me this long to figure that out, because I have taken many long range "lit" shots from positions where all I could see was the red outline, and assumed that I had a clear shot. And yes, I know the old saying about "assuming"... ;-)

 

That explains a lot of the missed shots I've had (to me anyway), especially with the Strv S1, because if I have a clear shot on a stationary Tank, it doesn't miss. It doesn't always penetrate, and doesn't always do full damage, but it doesn't miss.

 

Edit: To further explain my mistake, I was thinking all this time that if the Tank was lit, it was in the open. The reason I thought that is because I've shot lots of Tanks that weren't lit, but I could still see their back-half, or front sprocket poking out from cover.


Edited by ChaosKampf, Jan 07 2018 - 06:32.


ChaosKampf #37 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 01:25

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View Postuberdice, on Jan 06 2018 - 15:59, said:

 

You call people a lot of names and insult their intelligence

 

Me? I've only responded to people once or twice, and I think both times were messages that I got after the battle. During battles, the only comments I've made are to apologize if I managed to hit someone on my team with arty because of the flight-time of the shells.



TLWiz #38 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 04:14

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View PostChaosKampf, on Jan 04 2018 - 01:50, said:

 

I understand that point of view too, and actually, I bought two of them almost immediately after downloading the game. Only afterwards did I learn that it's not considered "Kosher" to do so. Aside from that, the Tier 8 S1 is excellent for overwatch/sniping. I have the camo rating so high that I'm nearly always the last Tank killed, and the gun hits hard enough, and at long enough range, to make it a definite asset to the team.

 

If you are always the last tank killed and you are averaging making maybe two hits per game - you may want to go to Youtube and watch some videos of good players playing those tanks. If you gun is not in action until most of your team or most of the red team is dead you are not helping your team.  Waiting for a flank to collapse and then moving that way is moving that way too late. Your S1 is averaging far less damage, kills, and winrate than average - which is to be expected from a newer player as yourself. Really, do go out to Youtube and check out some good players and see how they make specific tanks work.  For basic tactics Youtube is good too - check out Guido1212. Good luck!  The game is tough and you may not be as good as you think you are.  Realizing that is the first step toward getting into the game more and helping your team fight. Get back into the Tier 5s and work on playing those better before moving up. That you ask for advice is a good sign! This is an arcade game and its tactics are not too close to any history book.

Edited by TLWiz, Jan 07 2018 - 04:16.


uberdice #39 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 04:38

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View PostChaosKampf, on Jan 07 2018 - 10:25, said:

Me? I've only responded to people once or twice, and I think both times were messages that I got after the battle. During battles, the only comments I've made are to apologize if I managed to hit someone on my team with arty because of the flight-time of the shells.

 

Please pay attention; the post was quoting someone else, therefore it was not a response to you.

ChaosKampf #40 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 05:51

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Finally figured out how to save and upload a replay... I think.

 

http://wotreplays.eu...oskampf-strv_s1






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