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Bad form/Wrong-strategy on my part, or ignore the battle Trolls?

strategy choosing your role protect base lemming rush collapsed flanks chess mini-map sniper/sniping old fart trolling

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ChaosKampf #41 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 06:02

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View PostNitrah, on Jan 05 2018 - 14:43, said:

Let us see what you actually do, and we can tell you how to do it better.

 

I don't know if I uploaded the link right, or not. It said it uploaded, and gave me the link, but I can't get it to play. Maybe it's because I use Firefox, IDK...

 

Anyway, I intentionally went back to playing like I described when I made the original post. I thought this was a pretty good round myself, even though at the end one of those "Magically appearing" TD's does exactly that. Not sure if he even saw me though, he was going flat-out for the Arty, while I got wiped out from behind when I tried to turn and stop him.



scharnhorst310 #42 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 06:05

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View PostChaosKampf, on Jan 06 2018 - 20:51, said:

Finally figured out how to save and upload a replay... I think.

 

http://wotreplays.eu...oskampf-strv_s1

 

Great, the replay feature is a fantastic tool. I would say that without even looking at it that I was expecting to find something along an average game. You average around 600 damage in that tank. In that game you did over 3 times that amount. I have no doubt there are plenty to opportunities to critique in learn from, but you often learn more from your bad games than you do your good. 

uberdice #43 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 06:32

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View PostChaosKampf, on Jan 07 2018 - 14:51, said:

Finally figured out how to save and upload a replay... I think.

 

http://wotreplays.eu...oskampf-strv_s1

 

Your main issues in this match can be sourced almost entirely from your initial position:

 

Look at the minimap to see where you can expect to be able to shoot at things: in this case, you've got the mid ridge and the north ramp. Cool, got a couple of avenues to shoot at, sounds good so far.

 

Now, look at the minimap again, and try to see where your allies will be spotting targets for you: in this case, nowhere, because apart from the IS and Cromwell, nobody is taking positions to get anything even resembling map control. You are going to have to self-spot all your targets, which is generally not a good idea early on in the match in a Swedish TD. If you shoot at something within your view range, it's possible that you're within theirs as well, and if you're spotted, you will die.

 

Look at the minimap a third time, and think about where you can be shot from. In this instance, you can be shot from anywhere along the north ramp, the mid ridge, and from the dunes at E6 and D7, and if anything shoots you from there, nobody on your team is in position to spot them for return fire. In addition, because the two areas you're looking to shoot at are so far apart, you'll be exposing your side to one of them whenever you turn to face the other, and you don't have much hard cover to play with.

 

Now, a fourth look at the minimap: if you spot targets, which of your allies can shoot at what you can see? Anything on the north ramp can be shot at only by the T25 AT. Not exactly the most intimidating gun. Anything on the mid ramp at G8 could be shot by your allies in the southern dunes, but there's a big honking rock they can use for cover, so it's a huge blind spot for your allies (the same rock actually blocks your own shots later in the match after you relocated). There's basically a 100m stretch of ground where your allies can actually shoot at anything and help you.

 

So from four glances at the minimap, we know that the position you have taken is functionally the front line on this side of the map, highly exposed to enemy fire, and essentially unsupported by your allies. For your part, you're in a soft tank destroyer that relies on having allies as a buffer between it and the things it's shooting at, and you do not have the DPM to suppress anyone but the most timid solo pushers. Before even considering how the enemy team is going to play this scenario, it's already pretty clear that this is not a place you want to be at this point in the game. This becomes obvious fairly quickly because the second you got spotted, you were hammered from the middle of the map by tanks that your teammates had no way to retaliate against.

 

So let's move on to what happens during the game. The enemy team breaks through the north ramp because you're not able to lay down enough fire on your own to stop them. They then get into the shadow of the ridges in front of you and brutalise your allies without you being able to support, because the high ground that you're trying to use creates huge blind spots that your teammates have decided to sit in. Now, this is actually not a terrible position for TDs, but only if you have allies keeping the enemy in the positions you originally intended to shoot them in. It seems you recognised this because you relocated, but really by this point the damage had been done: your team had lost map control, your allies were being isolated one after another, and you had lost so many hitpoints that you had no realistic options beyond playing passively.

 

Also consider that your secondary function as a TD is to deny areas to enemy tanks because they're too scared to move through in case they get hammered by invisible guns. If the enemy team knows where you are, they'll have a good idea of what parts of the map you can and can't cover. By getting spotted in bad positions, you signal to the enemy team that it's a good time to roll up your allies in other locations, who, by the way, were playing like potatoes to begin with.

 

So, given that your team was in a losing position almost from the beginning of the battle, what else could you have done better? Well, the main thing other than paying attention to your deployment is that you need to learn to get out of sniper mode until you're actually ready to fire. Rocking forward to a ridge in a Swedish TD is a huge pain if you're in sniper mode because your view is locked to your gun. Move up first, then get into sniper mode so you can fine tune your aim more efficiently. After you fire, get out of sniper mode. You lose so much situational awareness through tunnel vision in sniper mode that learning to do this one thing will just straight up make you a more effective player.



ChaosKampf #44 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 07:22

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View PostSlim_Shadee, on Jan 06 2018 - 15:31, said:

If you are playing Destroyer sniping you are wasting the tank an the slot.

 

Other TD's that I use, like the Hetzer with the 105 mounted, and the Ikv 103 and its big gun, yeah, I agree with you. I can't play sniper with them effectively. I have to sneak around the battlefield from bush to bush, staying behind terrain as much as possible, trying to ambush as many as I can at close range to be any kind of asset at all for my team. I do have the Stug III set up for sniping though. Even though I can put the 105 on it like the Hetzer, I just prefer to play the Stug as a Sniper.

 

In the case of my Strv S1 though, I'll have to fully disagree with you on "how to play it". If I'm not in siege mode, I have no way to aim the gun, and my armor may as well be made of tinfoil. Just about any of the light tanks can take me out with a single auto-burst if they're at close range, and plenty of mediums and heavies can "one-shot" me from side/rear, even if I'm at full health. If you stay in siege mode as much as possible however, and pay attention to the angle of the top-plate on the S1 (especially while loading between shots), it will bounce a lot of the big guns.

 

The Strv 103B has a considerably better gun, and several hundred more hit points, so that's the trade-off they made for the S1 being a Premium. Even so, the armor and play-style would be pretty much the same, because they do have the same armor thickness.



ChaosKampf #45 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 07:57

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View Postuberdice, on Jan 06 2018 - 23:32, said:

Move up first, then get into sniper mode so you can fine tune your aim more efficiently. After you fire, get out of sniper mode. You lose so much situational awareness through tunnel vision in sniper mode that learning to do this one thing will just straight up make you a more effective player.

 

Thanks. You're right, and I can see the reasoning behind that suggestion.

 

The reason I've been creeping up the ridges in sniper-mode up to this point, is because I'm watching the horizon-mark on the sights, compared to the ridge line, so I don't expose anything more than I have to. You're right though, in that mobility is more important, especially when reversing back out of a spot like that. I knew I had already stayed there too long, then I got tracked, stunned, and I think tracked and stunned again.

 

It surprised me when I was actually able to get off that hill alive, I was sure that one more shot was coming to take me out, but I got lucky and that last shot missed me. I still can't see where those shots from the left were coming from though, even watching the replay.



ChaosKampf #46 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 08:03

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View Postscharnhorst310, on Jan 06 2018 - 23:05, said:

You average around 600 damage in that tank. In that game you did over 3 times that amount.

 

I either just got lucky, or the more aggressive play-style I've been attempting due to you guys suggestions is making a difference even when trying to show the play-style I was using when I made this post. I'm leaning more towards luck on this round...

ChaosKampf #47 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 08:21

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View Postuberdice, on Jan 06 2018 - 23:32, said:

if you're spotted, you will die.

 

As far as me not being able to see who was shooting at me, this video of your helps quite a bit. I need to watch the rest of them now.

 



scharnhorst310 #48 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 08:47

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View PostChaosKampf, on Jan 06 2018 - 23:03, said:

 

I either just got lucky, or the more aggressive play-style I've been attempting due to you guys suggestions is making a difference even when trying to show the play-style I was using when I made this post. I'm leaning more towards luck on this round...

 

I replied to your PM with my critique. Happy to paste it into this thread if you want everything consolidated, or not. Hope it helps! 

AbramsSmakr #49 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 09:52

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View PostChaosKampf, on Jan 03 2018 - 18:53, said:

I get messages regularly both during, and after battles, all but one of which so far, has been someone informing me of how "useless" I am, in varying degrees of inventive insults and colorful language (many with a disturbing lack of language or spelling skills). Regardless, they are nearly always in response to my playing style.

 

I'm not good at "Brawling" no matter what Tank I use, and I know it, just like I know that I can't sing, so I don't do Karaoke. So instead of rushing off to get myself killed asap, I have set most of my Tanks up as best I can to serve in either an Overwatch, or a Sniping role. 

 

When using Tanks that aren't good for a sniping role, I still tend to only advance about 1/4 of the map, in the center-line. I watch the center from cover (usually alone), and once I see that there are no immediate threats, and the flanks appear to be holding, I will attempt to circle from the middle, to a position behind the weaker of my teams flanks.  Otherwise, if I see that a Flank defense has collapsed, or that it's going to collapse soon and I know I can't help the situation, I retreat to a position in which I can attempt to protect the Arty's and the Base both. Sometimes other players join me in an overwatch position when a flank collapses, but most of the time they just rush off towards an already collapsed flank and get vaporized.

 

I treat the mini-map kind of like a chess board, and I prefer to watch things as they unfold. I am assuming that most of the "Good" players do the same. I'm not one of the "Good" players, but I still try to play the game with patience and strategy. If I see a flank collapse, and think that I can stop it, or at least make a useful difference, I will advance to a sniping position as soon as the first signs of failure start to appear. Otherwise, when 10 or 12 of the players immediately rush off to one side of the map, which all of you know happens entirely too often, I stick with my chosen role in the game.

 

So tell me, I can take criticism... According to the overall mentality of the game, am I in the wrong by playing this way? Or in other words, regardless of what I think is good strategy, is that simply not acceptable within the culture of this game?

 

Sean

 

Yea, it's annoying wen peeple kant evun spell werds rite in chat. Eye hate dem tipes of playurs. I meen come on fokes, get it toogethur allredie....

 

Seriously though I just watched a guy playing the Archer TD, and this guy's team was so bad that he had to kill 13 enemy players tanks to get a win. At times, he made a point of staying behind bushes or behind a low grassy rise, so that the grass gave him cover. While getting his last few kills, other players started saying he was "hacking", when they saw that he wasn't spotted by a KV-1s that he was shooting at from over 200m from behind bushes. He told them he wasn't spotted because of using bushes for cover. But these idiots tried to claim that bushes DO NOT affect camouflage mechanics and don't provide cover! No wonder he had to kill 13 tanks for a win! 



Doomslinger__ #50 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 09:59

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If you are going to play supporting role tanks like TD's, try the turreted ones first. The way most maps are set up don't really allow much long range sniping so it's good to have a turret to allow your tank to be flexible. On a city map you can still be of use by following a group of allies and let them take shots from enemies. When the enemy has fired, peek and take a free shot at them as they are reloading. Another option is to try to get to a position where the enemy can't point his gun at both you and your ally at the same time and then when he turns to aim the other way, peek and shoot him. When you do get a map or situation where you can snipe, you can do that too since you are a td but very few maps allow long range sniping. Most battles are mid and close range on the majority of maps. The Americans and British have turreted td lines that you could try out at mid tiers. If you like medium tanks and like to do a bit more sniping, go up the American or British turreted td lines. The Wolverine is probably the most user friendly td of the American line and I would recommend that over the T67 for newer players because it is fast enough to get to where you want but not so fast that you can get yourself in trouble early. It also has much better spotting range and the gun seems to hit more accurately. Put a gun rammer, binocs and camo net on for equipment. The Jackson and Challenger are also good td's that can be played like a medium when needed. The camo net and binocs can be moved around on these tds so you won't need to spend a fortune on equipment so that would be another advantage of playing those.

Boghie #51 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 16:42

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OP,

 

You have received some of the best advice available.  To summarize:
 

  1. Your overwatch is not an overwatch.  Overwatch denies the enemy the opportunity to attack your allies as they move to new positions.  It is not to watch the spawn circle.  It is not to take pling shots at dummies in the clear who would die anyway - although that is definitely a nice benefit to having a good and accurate gun :-).  It is to deny the enemy kill shots as a flank either moves forward on offense or performs a fighting retreat.  In the screenshot provided by UberDice you provided overwatch services to two dumb bunnies (KV-4, VK) who were 'useless' or AFK, a T-25 who was guarding the weak flank, and the IS.  Thus, you were supporting two viable allies out of the fourteen possible.  Overwatch would have been two or three hundred meters west of that position.
     
  2. The spawn circle should not be defended early.  Defending the spawn circle is a flex from a flank - hopefully one that has been won.  You want to 'defend the spawn circle' using a defense in depth strategy.  Part of that defense in depth is the function of taking territory early - what these folks call map control.  If you are not in a position to support your winning flank early when it matters than you have not supported the requirement for map control.  Support the win, then fall back a bit to deny the enemy their chance at winning.  There are always good sniping spots flanking the cap circle.
     
  3. Playing a Tier VIII tanks when you are still learning these basics is a recipe for getting slammed in battle chat, losing lots of games, and supporting your teammates in growing their losing percentage.  At Tier VIII there are 29 other players moving to viable positions (not true as evidenced by the screenshot, but go with me) and then you.  The screenshot illustrates that at least three tanks are not in a position to gain map control at that point.  You are mixed with the dummies in the HTs that are also 'providing overwatch' or whatever.  Don't be that guy.  Not certain what it is like in Tier VIII, but in Tiers V - VI if you are part of the game and seem to be somewhat capable than you really don't get spammed.  Getting spammed by some childish noob who YOLO'd in the first three minutes is nothing.  Getting slammed by a front line player that got good damage and lived reasonably long is advice.  Maybe initiate a chat with him/her.  You seem to have thick skin.
     
  4. The initial placement idea of holding the center is kinda odd.  Maybe it is viable, but to me it means that both flanks can nail you.  There are some maps where a central position works with a sniper.  Largish maps, bushes to hide in, rocks and buildings to take cover on.  But most maps force you to take a flank.  On most maps holding a center position 25% forward your spawn circle means you live longer than most (maybe) but die by swarm or vision or just because it is fun to kill you with reckless abandon at the end of the game.  Good players who know the vision mechanics can make it work, but you and I???  We need friends and we are lonely back there watching the spawn circle like a hawk.
     
  5. The French used their tanks defensively, the Germans used theirs offensively.  Don't be the French.  They were overrun in six weeks.  You don't want to be trading shots in a TD, but you want to be denying valuable territory and supporting the advance.  Don't start a game in fighting retreat - you cannot retreat from the spawn.  Two hundred meters of driving would have made you relevant in the documented game.


Boghie #52 Posted Jan 07 2018 - 17:18

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Your micro-skills and mini-map reading seem pretty good based on the full replay. 

 

  1. However, your team sought map control on the west flank and you were not there.  That is a function of playing to defend the cap circle - which seems to be the goal of defending the cap in an encounter mode game.  But it ain't.  If your team had dominated the west flank some of the enemy would have had to flex back.  As it was, they simply did not care where you were.  I don't know if your support would have been helpful in the end since some of your heavies were 'defending the cap as well'.  However, as you found out later, you can defend the cap from a flank - why not make it the strong flank where you might be able to support a win or, at worse, have a defensive screen for a chai-sniping loss.
     
  2. Some of your heavies defended the cap in the valley.  Ok...  But, they were in a valley and you could not get a gun on the enemy there.  That is one of the reasons HTs use the valley.  You were not providing overwatch for them.
     
  3. The enemy sought map control on the east flank, but your crew seems to be way too weak to spot and target them.  Yowser.  Look at those view range circles.  Not certain about the S1, but those are - to me - reminiscent of Tier II play for fun and run around looking at the cool burned out buildings range circles.  If you are going to play Tier VIII get your crew(s) to a Tier VIII level.  Do you even have a single skill for each crew member at 100%?  If you do, are any of the skills supporting view range in a view range TD.  Decent Tier VIII players probably have their tanks set with three skill crews at least.  You seem to have the necessary game skills, but your TD crew is horrendous.


ChaosKampf #53 Posted Jan 08 2018 - 00:30

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Block Quote

Do you even have a single skill for each crew member at 100%?  If you do, are any of the skills supporting view range in a view range TD.  Decent Tier VIII players probably have their tanks set with three skill crews at least.

 

Glad you brought that up, because I set the first and second skills on the S1 before I fully understood how the skills actually affected the game play, then never remembered to look at them again after I did learn. I obviously need to make some changes...

 

Commander 100% Camo, 67% BIA, Driver 100% Camo, 67% Clutch Brake, Radio 100% Camo, 67% Situational Awareness.



scharnhorst310 #54 Posted Jan 08 2018 - 01:42

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View PostChaosKampf, on Jan 07 2018 - 15:30, said:

 

Glad you brought that up, because I set the first and second skills on the S1 before I fully understood how the skills actually affected the game play, then never remembered to look at them again after I did learn. I obviously need to make some changes...

 

Commander 100% Camo, 67% BIA, Driver 100% Camo, 67% Clutch Brake, Radio 100% Camo, 67% Situational Awareness.

 

I'm personally a fan of BIA so i'd lean on the first skill being that, second would be camo as that has effect even when it isn't 100%

WangOnTheLoose #55 Posted Jan 08 2018 - 07:06

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View PostChaosKampf, on Jan 07 2018 - 18:30, said:

 

Glad you brought that up, because I set the first and second skills on the S1 before I fully understood how the skills actually affected the game play, then never remembered to look at them again after I did learn. I obviously need to make some changes...

 

Commander 100% Camo, 67% BIA, Driver 100% Camo, 67% Clutch Brake, Radio 100% Camo, 67% Situational Awareness.

 

​I would suggest resetting your skills.

Commander: Sixth Sense, Camo

Driver: Camo, Off Road Driving

Radio Operator: Camo, Situational Awareness

 

Sixth sense is the most important skill for you because you will know when you have been spotted.  Pretty useful.  And then you want to focus on camo with a sniper that has good camo in the first place.  I wouldn't worry about Brothers in Arms until you are at least half way through your third skill and you can retrain again for BiA.  Remember BiA only works when everyone in the crew has it at 100%.



King_NorthTX #56 Posted Jan 08 2018 - 13:12

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View PostChaosKampf, on Jan 04 2018 - 00:53, said:

I get messages regularly both during, and after battles, all but one of which so far, has been someone informing me of how "useless" I am, in varying degrees of inventive insults and colorful language (many with a disturbing lack of language or spelling skills). Regardless, they are nearly always in response to my playing style.

 

I'm not good at "Brawling" no matter what Tank I use, and I know it, just like I know that I can't sing, so I don't do Karaoke. ...

 

I run a broadcast channel, but I have yet to figure out everything...

 

I do believe it is folly to try to be everything.  There are tanks and fighting styles that fit some players, and some that don't.  I know I can't sing, so I don't.  Bumper over to the stats page, and look at what tanks you DO perform well at or with...then drive those tanks...more.  Likewise, if you aren't good with a certain type of tank, drive it less.

 

You did mention the you act alone many times.  If 'I' were going to give you advice I'd say worry less about flanks, and I'd say you should fight from the middle out.  Keep friends and teammates between you and the enemy.  Also, join the group, focus fire, and begin eliminating guns shooting back.  Unless you are sniping from a Heavy or a Light, you are going to get overwhelmed by bigger numbers that quickly surround you.

 

Lastly, I'd say if you are going to snipe, you need to work on driving and training your crews in vehicles with high concealment ratings.   Paint your tank, use the camp netting, and make sure your crew skills are complimenting your equipment.  Also, I'd try to stick to American TD's. They are fast and have a rotating turret.

 

Try your tactic in a T67 or Hellcat.  :)

 

Good Luck!

 

Also, Gladys, if you're out there, "Keep on keeping on!"


Edited by King_NorthTX, Jan 08 2018 - 13:13.


Boghie #57 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 01:42

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I think Guido1212 has perused this thread...

 

There is a little portion of this video where he mentions two TDs that moved to his flank providing overwatch support, and then in one case close order battle [I just dropped my brain and cannot remember the correct term for a TD going toe to toe with the enemy] at his position.  The little segment on those TDs entering HIS view range is enlightening.  He now knows they can see what he can see.  

 

I'm not good enough to realize that on my own.  It is an awesome point.  It is a way - if you tend to be over aggressive like me - to know when you are outrunning the guns on your team.  That is suiscouting even when you aren't doing it the Way of the True Suiscout.  It is also a point for you in your TD.  If targets are lit, but you cannot see them, then YOU have to move to get shots.  Do not wait and give the enemy map position and initiative.  Support your team and use your team.  You want to be these two TDs - and, maybe see it a little faster.

 

And, I love the JPz just slamming through that area.  He just drove in and killed em!!!

 

As a side mention for all those who think WR doesn't matter and that a single tank does not matter.  Guido COMPLETELY changed his tactics when ONE tank put on his sticky pants and supported his flank.  Then changed them again when that one TD used his hit points to maul that flank.  That ONE TD that was doing NOTHING but CAMPING earlier CHANGED the GAME.  The JPz was worth far more that 7% of the battle panel...

 

Sorry about the caps:ohmy:



murdockwan #58 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 15:38

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ChaosKampf,

You already received great advice here. My few additions:

1. Play exclusively tier V until you get basics under control and reach more-than-your-HP damage consistently.

2. Binge watch Zeven's Game Review videos on YouTube - he will change you drastically and help you improve much faster.

3. Find friends to regularly toon with - people that can see you in action, sometimes call out/correct your bad habits in real time and give you instant feedback battle after battle. If you like you can add me, I haven't figured out everything yet but I will callout if I spot any obvious mistakes that may not be clear to you just yet due to your battle count.

4. Buy a microphone/headset and install the free 'TeamSpeak' software. That will give you handsfree/advanced audio chat ability. This will be useful for step #3 above.

5. Keep posting your questions on the forums. Also get in a training clan that runs training rooms, regular toons. Always more fun to play/learn/improve with friends than alone. We are social animals ( even arties :P ).

 

EDIT: add Zeven's YouTube link --> https://www.youtube....WABrOga3edyKx8Y


Edited by murdockwan, Jan 09 2018 - 15:40.


ChaosKampf #59 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 22:56

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Lots of good advice on here, so I'm glad i finally asked for help. As far as playing more aggressively, like most have suggested, my playing sessions sometimes go better, sometimes go a lot worse. I think as many of you have mentioned, playing a whole lot more games will help more than anything, so I can figure out my own balance of what works best for me in each type of vehicle.

 

I just opened up my Steam library out of curiosity, and I played nearly 1500 hours on Fallout 4 before I finally got tired of it. I know that's kind of an apples to oranges comparison between the two games, but if I manage to put 1500 hours into this game without getting tired of it, I might actually be competitive by then... ;-) (or not)



Ripping #60 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 11:56

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    04-22-2012

View PostSlim_Shadee, on Jan 06 2018 - 22:31, said:

Two issues are one a majority of the insults about what your in and how they think you should play dont have a clue about the tank your in. Playing heavy as a sniper will always result in some comments. Because again if its a thin skinned heavy designed to be second tier support they dont have a clue. All/many of the knobs in the game see heavy and expect you to brawl. If you are playing Destroyer sniping you are wasting the tank an the slot.

 

Second issue is many of the knobs playing this game die an immediately scan the map pinging anyone they can blame for their stupid play. Then the numb nuts proceed to fill chat with their personal evaluation of everyone else s play. Just Blacklist those people as they are a cancer on the game. Same idiots that feel the need to drop a line in chat like: Morons, idiots, another crap team an so on.

 

So far as grammar, verbage and spelling. That tells me you have an issue an may with your comments be tossing gas on a fire.

 

Another useless detrimental player for his team, who his giving advice how to play a tank... LOL




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