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First Firearm: Good Beginners Choices


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Buttknuckle #41 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 03:01

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Surprised no one has mentioned a Remington model 700. Great bolt action rifle, durable, simple design. Been around forever so finding parts and accessories if you want them is easy. Available in a variety of calibers and come with a variety of synthetic or wood stocks.  I'd rather have something in 270 or 308 over 223 - more versatility. The suggestion to start with a .22 is a good one, as is the suggested ruger 10/22 - I don't think you'll find a better inexpensive .22.

Dirizon #42 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 03:22

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View PostButtknuckle, on Jan 10 2018 - 21:31, said:

  I'd rather have something in 270 or 308 over 223 - more versatility. 

 

Recoil, for a beginner. Cheaper, too.

the one major complaint people have of .223 is the velocity drop off and largely - light bullets. Which greatly influence overall power. But since l am not out to hunt, but am looking for a range past time, it should not be an issue. 

.22 is unbeatable in terms of ease of use, maintenance, cost, ammo - but doesn't really train shooters in extended range flat shooting. 



WildZipper #43 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 03:23

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Long guns in Canada come in either practical or pretty, but not really both.

A rifle that's so pretty that you're afraid to use it for fear of scratching it is pretty worthless.

 

Your first gun should be something cheap and practical, something that can/will take a bit of a beating with no regrets.

With that in mind, i would buy a semi auto .22lr (i own 2) they're great as a getting to know you kind of gun, cheap ammo, easy to clean and maintain.

 

If you decide on a second rifle, i would suggest a .308 Remington 700 bolt action, it's a sturdy rifle that's good at anything you might put it to use at (this is my favorite rifle, mines taken a beating over the years).



Horribad_At_Tanks #44 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 03:26

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View PostDirizon, on Jan 10 2018 - 21:22, said:

 

Recoil, for a beginner. Cheaper, too.

the one major complaint people have of .223 is the velocity drop off and largely - light bullets. Which greatly influence overall power. But since l am not out to hunt, but am looking for a range past time, it should not be an issue. 

.22 is unbeatable in terms of ease of use, maintenance, cost, ammo - but doesn't really train shooters in extended range flat shooting. 

 

Seems pretty reliable @600 yards on a windy day even with crappy tracer ammo.

 



Dirizon #45 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 03:31

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View PostHorribad_At_Tanks, on Jan 10 2018 - 21:56, said:

 

Seems pretty reliable @600 yards on a windy day even with crappy tracer ammo.

 

 

Compared to what? Full sized?

 

I am looking at CZ rifles, in .223. 



Horribad_At_Tanks #46 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 03:38

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View PostDirizon, on Jan 10 2018 - 21:31, said:

 

Compared to what? Full sized?

 

I am looking at CZ rifles, in .223. 

 

Are you talking about this?

 

https://www.gunbroke.../item/719466836

 

Accuracy should be similar if not better especially if you use quality ammo.



tod914 #47 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 03:41

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View PostButtknuckle, on Jan 10 2018 - 21:01, said:

Surprised no one has mentioned a Remington model 700. Great bolt action rifle, durable, simple design. Been around forever so finding parts and accessories if you want them is easy. Available in a variety of calibers and come with a variety of synthetic or wood stocks.  I'd rather have something in 270 or 308 over 223 - more versatility. The suggestion to start with a .22 is a good one, as is the suggested ruger 10/22 - I don't think you'll find a better inexpensive .22.

 

That's what I have.  Remington 700 ADL in .270.  Was an 8th grade graduation gift.  Nice rifle.  Same action as the M24 Sniper rifle.  .270 has a much flatter trajectory than .223 as well.

 

Would of loved to of had a Mauser, but they were a bit pricey at that time.  The action was like butter on those.


Edited by tod914, Jan 11 2018 - 03:45.


tod914 #48 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 03:54

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View Postmaxman1, on Jan 10 2018 - 20:45, said:

 

And the AR-15 does not need constant cleaning (look up the British L85/SA80 for real horror stories - probably the only firearm with a drill bit included in the cleaning kit). Yes, there were serious issues in Vietnam, but those can be sourced entirely to two things: the lack of a cleaning kit and DuPont using gunpowder meant for howitzers instead of the powder specified by the gun's designer, Eugene Stoner and ArmaLite. The howitzer powder burned dirty, leaving excessive carbon deposits, and burned slower, leading to case ruptures and Failures to Eject (FTE). Eugene Stoner never called it maintenance-free and in fact stated he assumed the Army would supply a cleaning kit.

 

Every firearm needs cleaning, even the Garand and derivatives, and every firearms does better with lubrication, especially the Garand system due to the design of the operating rod. Anyone who thinks metal-on-metal contact is a good thing is an idiot. For the Garand in particular pretty much every gun, use synthetic bearing grease on the the sliding surfaces and oil on the rotating points. Use less grease in the winter or you might get a 1911 slide running in slow-motion if it's cold enough.

 

For the AR-15, a light film of oil is all it needs, though it will run dry. It will not run properly if drenched in oil and will accumulate dirt and carbon. Also, as Hickok45 points out in one of his videos on his Colt AR-15A2, the AR design is extremely easy to clean, as it allows you to run a patch through from the breach.

 

And in both world wars and Korea, soldiers regularly cleaned their guns during downtime. Not doing so would incur the wrath of one's platoon sergeant.

Also the early M-16s didn't have chromed chambers and barrels.  That lead to a lot of the jamming problems as well.  Plus, no forward assist.  Cutting corners on early production.

Edited by tod914, Jan 11 2018 - 03:54.


3nr0n #49 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 04:53

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View PostButtknuckle, on Jan 10 2018 - 20:01, said:

Surprised no one has mentioned a Remington model 700. Great bolt action rifle, durable, simple design. Been around forever so finding parts and accessories if you want them is easy. Available in a variety of calibers and come with a variety of synthetic or wood stocks.  I'd rather have something in 270 or 308 over 223 - more versatility. The suggestion to start with a .22 is a good one, as is the suggested ruger 10/22 - I don't think you'll find a better inexpensive .22.

 

Unless I am wrong the 700 has a history of firing when bumped too hard even with the safety fully engaged.

https://www.remington.com/support/safety-center/remington-model-700-and-model-seven-notice

 

For a first rifle I agree the Ruger 10-22 is an excellent choice, what distance are you planning on shooting at? 

If you want something that will shoot flat then go with a .270 has more kinetic energy than a 30-06 shoot flatter also.

 

Now if you want to shoot a pistol then OLNY thing I will have is the M1911A1 .45ACP.

The first pistol designed to kill dope heads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol

American units fighting Moro guerrillas during the Philippine–American War using the then-standard Colt M1892 revolver, .38 Long Colt, found it to be unsuitable for the rigors of jungle warfare, particularly in terms of stopping power, as the Moros had high battle morale and often used drugs to inhibit the sensation of pain.[10] The U.S. Army briefly reverted to using the M1873 single-action revolver in .45 Colt caliber, which had been standard during the late 19th century; the heavier bullet was found to be more effective against charging tribesmen.[11] The problems prompted the then–Chief of Ordnance, General William Crozier, to authorize further testing for a new service pistol.[11]

Following the 1904 Thompson-LaGarde pistol round effectiveness tests, Colonel John T. Thompson stated that the new pistol "should not be of less than .45 caliber" and would preferably be semi-automatic in operation.[11] This led to the 1906 trials of pistols from six firearms manufacturing companies (namely, Colt, Bergmann, Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM), Savage Arms Company, Knoble, Webley, and White-Merrill).[11]



Buttknuckle #50 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 05:38

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View Post3nr0n, on Jan 11 2018 - 03:53, said:

 

Unless I am wrong the 700 has a history of firing when bumped too hard even with the safety fully engaged.

https://www.remington.com/support/safety-center/remington-model-700-and-model-seven-notice

 

 

Interesting. I was unaware of the safety recall. Thanks.

Horribad_At_Tanks #51 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 06:00

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View Post3nr0n, on Jan 10 2018 - 22:53, said:

Now if you want to shoot a pistol then OLNY thing I will have is the M1911A1 .45ACP.

 

The first pistol designed to kill dope heads.

 

Don't forget the second pistol designed to kill dope heads. Both are similar enough in stopping power and ballistic performance to be equally happy with no matter which you choose but the .40 has a bit more capacity and is lighter as a rule over the .45 so that's what swayed me on getting it. 

 

 

 

 



Beornotns #52 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 06:40

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Low recoil?  Ruger 10-22 semi-auto rifle (no finer plinker around, and a dizzying array of aftermarket parts make this a "choose your own adventure" firearm)

 

Hunting?  The Benelli R1 Big Game Rifle in .30-06 (the internal gas-operated blowback system reduces recoil on even cartridges like .338 Winchester Magnum, and the .30-06 has the most versatility and some of the best ballistics of any standard projectile).  I realize I went against the grain picking something other than a bolt action rfile, but the Benelli is one of the finest mass production rifle (and shotgun) makers in the world.

 

Shotgun for home defense and or 3-gun shooting?  Some would say the Mossberg 590, but I am an old school fella, and there is nothing like the Remington 870 Defender.  Both are 12 gauge pump that will cycle 2 3/4" or 3"; very reliable.  I would stay away from a semi-auto shotgun for now.

 

My personal pistols?  I have 3.  And then I will tell you the one(s) I would get in place of the ones I have (if there is a replacement).  And, as a qualification, I used to compete in IDPA sport shooting events.  I was decent, and until my hip gave out, I was just as good on the courses as some of the younger fellas.

 

My preference:  S&W .357 revolver

other preference?  None

For a double action revolver, Nothing beats the Smith & Wesson.  Ruger makes a fine single action (the Vaquero is a nice, more robust copy of the old Colt Peacemaker), but the S&W revolver is one of the most reliable pistols of all time.  Drop it in the mud, in sand, fish it out of the creek; as long as the hammer is not fouled and the ammunition is not damaged, you will discharge the weapon.

 

My preference: S&W Model 1911 single stack .45acp semi-auto pistol

other preference? The Para Black Ops 1911 double stack .45

I have larger hands, and I can manage a double stack .45 just fine, but not everyone can.  The S&W 1911 feels excellent in the hand and draws very well.  The Para Ordnance P 15 of old (now a collectors item) was my father's favorite, but the Para of today is a bit more... tactical and less walnut and cross-hatching on the backstrap.

 

My preference: Glock 35 (.40 S&W)

other preference: Springfield Armory XD(M) 5.25" .40 S&W Competition Series

The longer barrel on these .40s gives a better sight picture, the .40S&W [screw the folks that call them "forty short an weaks"] is a better handling round than a .45, but a more formidable round than a 9mm.  And while I had my first Glock very soon after they became popular in the US (in the late 80s), the lack of a grip safety has always made me a little reluctant to completely recommend them.  Along comes the Springfield XD platform in the early 2000s and I was hooked.  They may not be as "sleek" as the Austrian pistol, but they are just as reliable and, I feel, more trustworthy in the hands of a neophyte.

 

Anyway, if you have any other questions, do not hesitate to contact me off board.  I realize this might not be the place to discuss real projectiles...

 

o7

 

~B


Edited by Beornotns, Jan 11 2018 - 06:44.


Dirizon #53 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 06:51

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View PostHorribad_At_Tanks, on Jan 10 2018 - 22:08, said:

 

Are you talking about this?

 

CZ527

 

Accuracy should be similar if not better especially if you use quality ammo.

 

CZ527, yes.

 



Horribad_At_Tanks #54 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 07:55

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View PostDirizon, on Jan 11 2018 - 00:51, said:

 

CZ527, yes.

 

 

From every hands on review I can find its rated as one of the most accurate bolt actions you can get that doesn't cost you a fortune. Seems the 7.62 version is more popular especially at range over the .223/5.56 but all are nail drivers.

 

The only decent video reviews are of the 7.62 but the main points all apply.

 

 

 

 



Klaatu_Nicto #55 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 08:33

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View PostHorribad_At_Tanks, on Jan 10 2018 - 21:00, said:

 

Don't forget the second pistol designed to kill dope heads. Both are similar enough in stopping power and ballistic performance to be equally happy with no matter which you choose but the .40 has a bit more capacity and is lighter as a rule over the .45 so that's what swayed me on getting it. 

 

 

.40 got my vote.

 

 



Norteroth #56 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 10:00

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Anything CZ is a good plan. You keep saying 223, why not look in the 5.56? A 5.56 can fire a 223 round, but a 223 can not fire a 5.56 something to keep in mind. For inexpensive I picked up a ruger American 5.56 bolt action (ranch model) 16.2" I think for $400, put a Nikon omega scope on it, and it has a threaded barrel so a muzzle break. It's a coyote slayer. 

Horribad_At_Tanks #57 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 10:15

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View PostNorteroth, on Jan 11 2018 - 04:00, said:

Anything CZ is a good plan. You keep saying 223, why not look in the 5.56? A 5.56 can fire a 223 round, but a 223 can not fire a 5.56 something to keep in mind. For inexpensive I picked up a ruger American 5.56 bolt action (ranch model) 16.2" I think for $400, put a Nikon omega scope on it, and it has a threaded barrel so a muzzle break. It's a coyote slayer. 

 

The CZ 527 is already chambered for 5.56 and there are tons of vids of people using nato rounds in it with no issues. They label it .223 rem because its marketed as a sporting gun and not a military gun but it complies with the CIP standard which doesn't differentiate between .223 and 5.56 by using the round which generates the higher pressure. But in general you are correct. A gun specifically chambered for .223 rem might fail if you use a higher powered nato or even match grade .223 cartridge. But for his purposes I think just some dirt cheap .223 remington will be all he needs for the short term.

Not_Connery #58 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 15:28

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View PostChaosKampf, on Jan 10 2018 - 01:09, said:

Kind of surprised no one has mentioned it, but regardless of what you end up buying, the very first thing you need to learn is Gun Safety.

 

Most important of all: Treat all guns as if they are loaded, at all times, no matter if it's just a BB gun. Lots of people have killed or wounded themselves, or others, with "unloaded" guns, along with shooting through walls, ceilings, etc...

 

Even if you're pointed down-range, and preparing to take your shot at a Target, keep your finger completely away from the trigger until you are actually ready to make the shot. Get into the habit of holding your trigger finger on the side, or front of the trigger-guard until you are ready to fire. That pressure you feel on your finger from the edge of the trigger-guard will eventually act as a form of "muscle-memory" and keeping your finger there, instead of inside the trigger-guard will become second nature.

 

Always be 100% positive of what you are shooting at before you touch that trigger, and maintain awareness of what might have moved into the background behind your target while you were fiddling around with the scope magnification, or whatever. Especially if you're relying on a natural terrain feature as a back-stop, rather than a purpose-built Berm. We have to constantly keep an eye out for a neighbors dog, for example, at my family shooting range, and even when shooting at the local (rural) Gun Club that I occasionally frequent, there are still neighbors in the general area, so Cats, Dogs, and even a Donkey (once) have gotten into the line of fire over the years.

 

When shooting at a Range with other people around, before you leave the Bench, or Firing line, always empty the gun and open the action. If you stop shooting without emptying the gun, drop the Magazine, check the chamber, and lock the Slide back in the open position before turning away from the direction of the firing range. In the case of a bolt-action, levergun, pump-shotgun, Double or O/U shotgun, and other non semi-auto's, open the action, check the chamber, then leave the action open as you move back behind the firing line. With a Revolver, open the cylinder, dump the shells (fired or not), and leave the cylinder open. Some Gun clubs, especially in cities, require you to clear the gun, then stick a red or yellow plastic "Flag" in the chamber before turning around, and any time the gun is not actually in use. This is not only a good idea, and a way for others to know positively that your gun is "safe", it can also get you banned from a Range if you don't do it.

 

Another thing worth mentioning is metallic targets and jacketed bullets. When a jacketed bullet hits steel, the lead basically scatters itself, but the jacket more often than not, comes back towards the shooter. Some of the surplus ammo, especially Russian, have steel cores in them, and often enough, the steel core will go through a standard unhardened steel target, while "stripping" the jacket off and sending it straight back towards the shooter.

 

This issue is mainly a problem associated with the Handgun Sports that use steel targets, such as PPC, IPSC, CAS, or just plinking at close-range gongs or "flipper" targets. But at ranges closer than 50yds, it can be a serious problem with Rifles as well, and is something all shooters should be aware of.

 

First of all, THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

What ChaosKampf says is THE FIRST THING you should think about before even TOUCHING a gun at the gun store.  ALL guns are loaded.  Even if you just checked it five times over to make sure that it was not loaded, IT IS LOADED.

 

If you get into the habit of dealing with even unloaded guns as if they are loaded, then you will also deal with possibly loaded ones the same way (hopefully).

 

Props to you, ChaosKampf, for reminding us of the most important thing to remember about handling guns.

 

 

Second, from what I have heard, any Ruger, Savage, or CZ bolt-action rifle is a good option for reliability, accuracy, and value.



Not_Connery #59 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 15:31

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View PostHorribad_At_Tanks, on Jan 11 2018 - 07:55, said:

 

From every hands on review I can find its rated as one of the most accurate bolt actions you can get that doesn't cost you a fortune. Seems the 7.62 version is more popular especially at range over the .223/5.56 but all are nail drivers.

 

The only decent video reviews are of the 7.62 but the main points all apply.

 

 

 

 

 

Hickok45...  Everyone's favorite gun grandpa. :great:

 

Seriously, though, this guy is just fun to watch and has AMAZING accuracy.



TailGunner1977 #60 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 17:40

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View PostButtknuckle, on Jan 10 2018 - 20:01, said:

Surprised no one has mentioned a Remington model 700. Great bolt action rifle, durable, simple design. Been around forever so finding parts and accessories if you want them is easy. Available in a variety of calibers and come with a variety of synthetic or wood stocks.  I'd rather have something in 270 or 308 over 223 - more versatility. The suggestion to start with a .22 is a good one, as is the suggested ruger 10/22 - I don't think you'll find a better inexpensive .22.

 

I had Remingtons 770. I pulled the bolt back and I had the lock set and i still pulled the bolt completely out lol




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