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Tier 10 and Tier 9 Random Battles...


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g4143 #1 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 03:09

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I've played numerous tier 10 and 9 battles as a bottom tier noob and come to the conclusion that the play at this level can suck as bad as any tier 5 battle. Basically I see 2 or 3 players who understand what has to be done and the remainder just follow these players around waiting... Waiting for what? I'm not sure.

 

Here's some of the initial layouts I've witnessed in tier 10/9 battles..

 

No friendly tanks covering the beach or a major pathway.

All the friendly tanks on one quarter of the map.

No friendly tanks covering the middle.

Friendly tanks making a big push only to be flanked because no one was covering their rear position.

Tanks retreating from their position(s) silently(not falling back to a defensive position.... Just retreating) because they meet opposition. That opposition could be anything from a light tank to a major push and they retreat without informing anyone.

etc.

 

It's actually amusing when all the experienced players have been knocked out and its up to the less experienced players to save the win. The worse case I've experienced is a player retreating to a remote corner of the map and running out the camp clock.

 

The more experienced players complain about the quality of play at the higher tiers but how do you fix it? The higher tiers are filled with noobs and I would guess the noobs are the majority.


Edited by g4143, Jan 09 2018 - 03:13.


Xeraux #2 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 03:18

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You can't fix it. It'll be this way until the servers shut down. 

Doomslinger__ #3 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 03:19

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The thing is, if you can play above the average level of pub players in any tank, you already give each team you are on an increased chance of a win boost simply because you are on it. Conversely, if you are below average, you are taking up a valuable team slot that probably would have been filled by either an average or above average player instead of below average one which results in more losses. So when people say that the chance to win is rigged for higher skilled players, it really is boosted, simply because that skilled player increased the chance of a win on every team he was on compared to average and lower players. I have found that the people who consistently score in the bottom 10 for xp earned on the teams are the worst whiners. They need others to carry them so they cry the loudest since they are usually dead first or are not doing much of anything useful if still alive except spamming the chat with distractions. If you scored in the bottom 10 for xp earned on a team, usually you contributed to that loss or if a win, you were carried.

Nudnick #4 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 03:21

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From what I've seen, the only way to get any kind of serious team work is to join a clan. Randoms are just a total clustermuck all the way to tier ten.

uberdice #5 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 03:53

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View Postg4143, on Jan 09 2018 - 12:09, said:

The more experienced players complain about the quality of play at the higher tiers but how do you fix it? The higher tiers are filled with noobs and I would guess the noobs are the majority.

 

I deal with it by learning the meta and performing well, especially when I'm tier 10 and therefore expected to do most of the work, because I know for a fact that a good portion of the team is going to be made up of players who would be lucky to be worth half the slots they occupy in any given match.



g4143 #6 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 10:58

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View Postuberdice, on Jan 09 2018 - 03:53, said:

 

I deal with it by learning the meta and performing well, especially when I'm tier 10 and therefore expected to do most of the work, because I know for a fact that a good portion of the team is going to be made up of players who would be lucky to be worth half the slots they occupy in any given match.

 

Lets be honest/real here... If you are tier 10 then its your overpowered tank that's expected to do most of the work because its overpowered compared to the other lower tiers.

Edited by g4143, Jan 09 2018 - 11:22.


uberdice #7 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 11:43

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View Postg4143, on Jan 09 2018 - 19:58, said:

Lets be honest/real here... If you are tier 10 then its your overpowered tank that's expected to do most of the work because its overpowered compared to the other lower tiers.

 

Now imagine for a second that someone of your skill level is in that top tier tank and your team is expecting you to perform against someone of average skill level opposite you. That's why bad players fail harder, and fail more often at high tiers than anywhere else.

Lurus #8 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 12:09

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you can fail your way up to tier 10 with enough effort and games and just because its the higher tier in some ways it actually makes it worse because the disparity between players skill is larger as a whole. 

You've got more of the guys routinely with 20k+ plus battles who play tier 10 more frequently and super pimped out crews vs newbies and noobs.  Nothing against those great players because they put the time and effort in but its just my point that the gap between high skill and low skill is probably the largest at tier 10 in terms of who can and cant compete and has vs doesn't have the game sense and knowledge and thus the failure rate for those lacking is worse and hits and hurts a lot harder.  

​As you pointed out you count on those tier 10 tanks as top tier tanks so when one fails as like one of three tier 10s in a 3/5/7 game its really bad when the other team had the competent tier 10s who know what they are doing and the failure is spectacular. Not to mention lower tiered players may look up to that tier 10 and say alright hes got a tier 10 he knows what hes doing lets follow him and pretty soon you've got a lemming of beginners. 

​Another common cause for this is probably 1. the idea that the game is the best at top tier and has the best tanks and players are better ect... and 2. those that rush up tiers faster then they really ought to in order to reach that point for those reasons.  The ideas in point one aren't necessarily bad and I don't doubt plenty of people do enjoy tier 10 tanks and games but its those that try and get there before they really should be ready is part of the issue.

I'm not sure you could fix it specifically though without like going crazy and locking the tier until a battle threshold was reached and even then still could fail your way to the top or like requiring certain stats to play in tier 10 but just because someone had good stats doesn't mean they will play well with a team.    Just to clarify I think these are two super dumb ideas that should never be implemented but its like one of the few ways I could see to actually try to prevent people playing tier 10 before they were ready. 

​The only other option is to learn yourself, learn tactics, learn strats and game mechanics ect.... and do your best each game and then at least you can feel good about how you preformed and learning how to preform off what your team does to make sure you look at the one variable you can change which is you individually as a player and then at least know you did well even if the team struggled or misplayed a winnable scenario which no doubt can and will be frustrating but you cant control 14 random players you only have control over yourself. 

 To me however World of Tanks just generally shouldn't be about the end game and getting to tier 10 it should be about the journey to make it there and the tier 10 is more of the reward at the end not where the real game starts. 

This was one reason I liked it when like WoT esports was restricted to lower tiers such as like the tier 8 max years as it highlighted other tanks such as good tier 8 tanks in pro matches and not just tier 10s as it does now that would make people want to rush a single line to that tier 10 quickly perhaps but I certainly understand why esports would want to highlight the top tiered tanks and put the best face forward in that manner. That's not to say that all those that rush a tier 10 are the result of esports but I would assume avid watchers are influenced by that like seeing the super conqueror or maus or batchat constantly used for example and just assume its best tank and rush for it. 

That doesn't specifically mean that tier 10 ought to not exist as endgame or that its not worthwhile to get a tier 10 after a point but simply that I feel there really is no benefit or incentive to rushing up to that point quickly just to say you did it and then get squashed more then likely. 

​Ive seen people say the best tier to learn the game at is tier 10 because to be the best you gotta play the best but if all you are doing is subjecting yourself to beatdown after beatdown by highly skilled and experienced players with good crews while you have  little experience of the game and perhaps even lacking knowledge of at least some of the basic mechanics you aint going to be learning much in tier 10 battles.  tier 10 is perhaps a good way to test yourself after some time and of course not all battles will go well for anyone but the mistakes a new player makes at like tier 4-6 aren't as painful as the same mistake in tier 10 with the big guns and players who will absolutely punish you for it. 


​Also OP just to clarify when I say things such as you or your I am not talking about you specifically but more in a general sense as like a you is just an individual WOT player so just don't want that taken the wrong way or out of context. 
 

Edited by Lurus, Jan 09 2018 - 12:23.


g4143 #9 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 12:21

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View Postuberdice, on Jan 09 2018 - 11:43, said:

 

Now imagine for a second that someone of your skill level is in that top tier tank and your team is expecting you to perform against someone of average skill level opposite you. That's why bad players fail harder, and fail more often at high tiers than anywhere else.

 

To really drill the point home... I'm an arty player. Does that mean every enemy I knock-out has less skill than me or does it mean my vehicle is designed to knock out skilled/non-skilled enemy players.

 

The system could say I'm skilled because its awarded everyone of my arty pieces with marks of excellence.


Edited by g4143, Jan 09 2018 - 12:23.


uberdice #10 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 12:21

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View PostLurus, on Jan 09 2018 - 21:09, said:

you can fail your way up to tier 10 with enough effort and games and just because its the higher tier in some ways it actually makes it worse because the disparity between players skill is larger as a whole. 

You've got more of the guys routinely with 20k+ plus battles who play tier 10 more frequently and super pimped out crews vs newbies and noobs.  Nothing against those great players because they put the time and effort in but its just my point that the gap between high skill and low skill is probably the largest at tier 10 in terms of who can and cant compete and has vs doesn't have the game sense and knowledge.  

​Another common cause for this is probably 1. the idea that the game is the best at top tier and has the best tanks and players are better ect... and 2. those that rush up tiers faster then they really ought to in order to reach that point for those reasons.  The ideas in point one aren't necessarily bad and I don't doubt plenty of people do enjoy tier 10 tanks and games but its those that try and get there before they really should be ready is part of the issue.

I'm not sure you could fix it specifically though without like going crazy and locking the tier until a battle threshold was reached and even then still could fail your way to the top or like requiring certain stats to play in tier 10 but just because someone had good stats doesn't mean they will play well with a team.    Just to clarify I think these are two super dumb ideas that should never be implemented but its like one of the few ways I could see to actually try to prevent people playing tier 10 before they were ready. 

​The only other option is to learn yourself, learn tactics, learn strats and game mechanics ect.... and do your best each game and then at least you can feel good about how you preformed and learning how to preform off what your team does to make sure you look at the one variable you can change which is you individually as a player and then at least know you did well even if the team struggled or misplayed a winnable scenario. 

 To me however World of Tanks just generally shouldn't be about the end game and getting to tier 10 it should be about the journey to make it there and the tier 10 is more of the reward at the end not where the real game starts. 

This was one reason I liked it when like WoT esports was restricted to lower tiers such as like the tier 8 max years as it highlighted other tanks such as good tier 8 tanks in pro matches and not just tier 10s as it does now that would make people want to rush a single line to that tier 10 quickly perhaps but I certainly understand why esports would want to highlight the top tiered tanks and put the best face forward in that manner. That's not to say that all those that rush a tier 10 are the result of esports but I would assume avid watchers are influenced by that like seeing the super conqueror or maus or batchat constantly used for example and just assume its best tank and rush for it. 

That doesn't specifically mean that tier 10 ought to not exist as endgame or that its not worthwhile to get a tier 10 after a point but simply that I feel there really is no benefit or incentive to rushing up to that point quickly just to say you did it and then get squashed more then likely. 

​Ive seen people say the best tier to learn the game at is tier 10 because to be the best you gotta play the best but if all you are doing is subjecting yourself to beatdown after beatdown by highly skilled and experienced players with good crews while you have  little experience of the game and perhaps even lacking knowledge of at least some of the basic mechanics you aint going to be learning much in tier 10 battles.  tier 10 is perhaps a good way to test yourself after some time and of course not all battles will go well for anyone but the mistakes a new player makes at like tier 4-6 aren't as painful as the same mistake in tier 10 with the big guns and players who will absolutely punish you for it. 


​Also OP just to clarify when I say things such as you or your I am not talking about you specifically but more in a general sense as like a you is just an individual WOT player so just don't want that taken the wrong way or out of context. 
 

 

I don't understand why you'd think it's reasonable for someone to be at tier 10 and yet be so inexperienced as to not understand basic mechanics.

 

When (skilled) players say that tier 10 is the best tier to learn, they mean learning higher level concepts, not basic mechanics. Nobody really expects perfect situational awareness and reading of game flow from someone fresh out of mid tiers, but if someone hasn't got basic mechanics and map knowledge down by the time they reach tier 10, they might need to get diagnosed for a learning disability.

 

View Postg4143, on Jan 09 2018 - 21:21, said:

To really drill the point home... I'm an arty player. Does that mean every enemy I knock-out has less skill than me or does it mean my vehicle is designed to knock out skilled/non-skilled enemy players.

 

Arty doesn't care about skill because it is an RNG slot machine. Nobody expects arty to carry, ever, and it's able to give the illusion that you're contributing while having no counter-play, which is why it's attractive to bad players.



Lurus #11 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 12:51

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View Postuberdice, on Jan 09 2018 - 04:21, said:

 

I don't understand why you'd think it's reasonable for someone to be at tier 10 and yet be so inexperienced as to not understand basic mechanics.

 

When (skilled) players say that tier 10 is the best tier to learn, they mean learning higher level concepts, not basic mechanics. Nobody really expects perfect situational awareness and reading of game flow from someone fresh out of mid tiers, but if someone hasn't got basic mechanics and map knowledge down by the time they reach tier 10, they might need to get diagnosed for a learning disability.

 

 

Arty doesn't care about skill because it is an RNG slot machine. Nobody expects arty to carry, ever, and it's able to give the illusion that you're contributing while having no counter-play, which is why it's attractive to bad players.

 

​I agree about when skilled players say tier 10 is best learning tool for things like that when they mean it that way I more was referencing seeing lower skilled players saying that with my post and just subjecting themselves to tier 10 too quickly because its the tier to learn at.  IIRC there was a thread around here somewhere about something like what the best tier to learn the game at talking about newer players and while most said tiers 4-6 or something similar I recall seeing at least one response saying tier 10 and just to get there quickly or something to that effect and would be surprised if that was just a fluke one off comment. 

​Also sure you would hope most people by the time they reached tier 10 after  a few thousand battles had basic knowledge of the game and if nothing else how to play the line they went down. Perhaps the definition of basic knowledge is the issue there and I don't disagree that you would think by tier 10 and perhaps by that point you are helpless to receive any assistance or learning the game but I also know there are players that simply don't care to do so and just want to get to tier 10 after the few thousand battles like its a speed run or something and wont care or take the time to learn.   I've seen some tier 10 players with like 2K battles who just played one line and basically failed to tier 10 and then make a very ugly error. 

​I think theres a lot of factors involved beyond just what I specifically stated but I certainly think some of the issue can be getting to tier 10 too fast at times and thus not having had the time or experience to get past a rookie wall or just simply not caring to learn how to play their tank or map or w/e that exist at all tiers but it becomes way more important knowledge to posess at tier 10 and within the tier 10 bracket of play.

In my experience I have played with some friends like that where it was like who cared about learning or tactics or w/e it was just a game and ill do what I want.  Now granted they weren't at tier 10 but they would play like tier 6 or 7 the same way they were playing tier one because it was just supposed to be fun and who cares about learning its just a game or things like that.

 I also know for me it took me probably at least a few thousand battles to actually change my attitude and start even trying to learn and actively seeking out resources and reading material and like looking up a map strat that was causing me trouble beyond just making the normal new player mistakes with things like crew training that I am still trying to fix and trying to at least improve somewhat and I've seen players have reached tier 10 in this time by sticking to a single line and I could have easily been one of them. 


​That said I am admittedly not the best person with specific knowledge on this subject because I have never played in a tier 10 tank and hardly touched tier 9 and right now have been spending most of my time in lower tiers trying to improve as I do not feel I can regularly compete with the players at tiers 8+ right now and until I can do so I don't want to just be dead weight for my team but that is just my opinion as perhaps one reason and take it for whatever its worth. 


 

Edited by Lurus, Jan 09 2018 - 13:01.


g4143 #12 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 13:02

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View Postuberdice, on Jan 09 2018 - 12:21, said:

 

 

Arty doesn't care about skill because it is an RNG slot machine. Nobody expects arty to carry, ever, and it's able to give the illusion that you're contributing while having no counter-play, which is why it's attractive to bad players.

 

But I have carried the game. I have won the game when it was only arty against the other side.

 

Isn't it funny how you aren't calling out td's and other vehicles which embrace their high camo values or high view range to pick-off the enemy beyond detection?

 

The worst tactician is the one that fails to recognize or fails to utilize their team's abilities... You are the chess player who complains about certain chess pieces and refuses to play or contemplate their role in the grand strategy. If this is what passes for tier 10 strategy, then I see why tier 10 matches can be such cluster f*****.

 


Edited by g4143, Jan 09 2018 - 13:07.


Lesser_Spotted_Panzer #13 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 13:17

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View Postg4143, on Jan 09 2018 - 07:02, said:

 

But I have carried the game. I have won the game when it was only arty against the other side.

 

Isn't it funny how you aren't calling out td's and other vehicles which embrace their high camo values or high view range to pick-off the enemy beyond detection?

 

The worst tactician is the one that fails to recognize or fails to utilize their team's abilities... You are the chess player who complains about certain chess pieces and refuses to play or contemplate their role in the grand strategy. If this is what passes for tier 10 strategy, then I see why tier 10 matches can be such cluster f*****.

 

 

Arty haters are gonna hate.

You can make a very significant impact when playing arty. Carrying is very rare, but you can often make enough difference to affect the outcome. It's funny when you see the enemy team about to push, and then you nuke the most aggressive guy in their bunch. You then see all his team mates scurry back behind their rocks. If only they pushed it would have been a blowout win for them since that side had a huge numbers disadvantage. That's just one example of how arty can make a big difference.



Chalybos #14 Posted Jan 09 2018 - 19:50

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Players have been able to bot and afk their way into tier 10 for years.  XP boosters just make it easier for a newer player to play catch up and afk their way to tier 10 as well.

Something that I've noticed is that a player who's got terrible stats overall is going to play badly regardless of tier.  Facerolling a tier 6 heavy across a field and crying about TDs they can't see, meds popping them from a distance, and arty plunking down shells on them as they drive straighter than a Roman highway isn't something that a bad player miraculously stops doing in the top tiers.  The repair bill just gets bigger, and unfortunately the only thing that will stop that behavior is making it too expensive to play in that tier.  But then they can pop credit boosters and buy credits to offset that, so even then it's not going to keep bad play from being the norm, rather than the exception.  

 



Ripping #15 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 18:56

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View Postg4143, on Jan 09 2018 - 12:21, said:

 

To really drill the point home... I'm an arty player. Does that mean every enemy I knock-out has less skill than me or does it mean my vehicle is designed to knock out skilled/non-skilled enemy players.

 

The system could say I'm skilled because its awarded everyone of my arty pieces with marks of excellence.

Actually no, you have under 40% of your arty awareded with 1 MoE

 

Even then, you do less damage than you should in any match, and as for your tier 9.... So you really arent that good at arty either...

 

Accept this and get better before whining about tier 9 and 10s battle you really shouldnt be in.



Ripping #16 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 18:57

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View Postg4143, on Jan 09 2018 - 03:09, said:

I've played numerous tier 10 and 9 battles as a bottom tier noob and come to the conclusion that the play at this level can suck as bad as any tier 5 battle. Basically I see 2 or 3 players who understand what has to be done and the remainder just follow these players around waiting... Waiting for what? I'm not sure.

 

Here's some of the initial layouts I've witnessed in tier 10/9 battles..

 

No friendly tanks covering the beach or a major pathway.

All the friendly tanks on one quarter of the map.

No friendly tanks covering the middle.

Friendly tanks making a big push only to be flanked because no one was covering their rear position.

Tanks retreating from their position(s) silently(not falling back to a defensive position.... Just retreating) because they meet opposition. That opposition could be anything from a light tank to a major push and they retreat without informing anyone.

etc.

 

It's actually amusing when all the experienced players have been knocked out and its up to the less experienced players to save the win. The worse case I've experienced is a player retreating to a remote corner of the map and running out the camp clock.

 

The more experienced players complain about the quality of play at the higher tiers but how do you fix it? The higher tiers are filled with noobs and I would guess the noobs are the majority.

 

Easily, stop players like you entering tiers 8+ :P

_Tsavo #17 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 19:02

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View Postg4143, on Jan 09 2018 - 06:21, said:

 

 

The system could say I'm skilled because its awarded everyone of my arty pieces with marks of excellence.

 

Single marks are pretty much participation awards, 3 show skill, 2 shot competency, 1 shows you know which end of the gun makes the boom-boom sound.

g4143 #18 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 02:19

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Won a tier 10 match tonight 15 - 1. The losing team had 8 players with less than 100 damage and of those 10, 8 had 0 damage. That's more than half the team.

Edited by g4143, Jan 11 2018 - 02:19.


g4143 #19 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 02:23

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View Post_Tsavo, on Jan 10 2018 - 19:02, said:

 

Single marks are pretty much participation awards, 3 show skill, 2 shot competency, 1 shows you know which end of the gun makes the boom-boom sound.

 

Yeah! They would have to be participation awards. Just like acer tanker will be a participation award when you find out I won a few of those too.

 

BTW. One of those ace tanker awards was won on a stock tier 9 tank with a green crew.


Edited by g4143, Jan 11 2018 - 02:25.


WangOnTheLoose #20 Posted Jan 11 2018 - 02:45

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You have gotten an ace tanker on two vehicles in 8000 battles, that won't impress anyone.  On top of that you got your tier IX in an arty, again you aren't impressing anyone.

 

You are trying waaaayyyyyy too hard to convince people how good you are.  






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