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Arty Average Damage Per Shot...


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g4143 #1 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 00:41

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Has anyone read the docs for any arty piece and marveled at the damage per penetrating shot?

 

Let give you some examples...

 

B_C 155 55 has and average damage of 750 with a min of 562 and a max of 938

Lorr. 155 51 has and average damage of 750 with a min of 562 and a max of 938

Lorr. 155 50 has and average damage of 700 with a min of 525 and a max of 875

 

Now that looks very overpowered right? Just look at those numbers! How can anyone say arty isn't overpowered when those numbers are for French arty and they have the weakest guns?

 

Well I've played thousands of games in the above mentioned tanks and never managed a damage role that was 700. I never managed a damage role that was near 500. My max's are around 250 - 300 with and average around 100. These low numbers I'm posting include shotgunning light tanks in the side at point blank range for a damage role of 200 - 300.

 

The numbers that WarGaming post for arty are entirely unrealistic and don't match reality in the slightest. 

 

Has anyone else noticed that the numbers posted for arty's damage are unrealistic?



Zippit #2 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 00:44

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Inb4 people start flaming Arty

 

Yeah, it's very low damage at the moment, and you have to penetrate to make any sort of hurt.



SaltCommando #3 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 00:54

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200-300 IF YOUR LUCKY fighting same teir in the the 155 55.

 

When i do press my battle button I pray I fight teir 9/8's with that thing. 


Edited by SaltCommando, Jan 10 2018 - 00:55.


el_mucho_dingdong #4 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 00:57

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But, but, but, All I hear every day on the forums is "boo hoo, arty 1-shot me" or "arty is OP". How can this be with only a 200-300 damage roll? :trollface:

heavymetal1967 #5 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:00

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View Postg4143, on Jan 09 2018 - 18:41, said:

Has anyone read the docs for any arty piece and marveled at the damage per penetrating shot?

 

Let give you some examples...

 

B_C 155 55 has and average damage of 750 with a min of 562 and a max of 938

Lorr. 155 51 has and average damage of 750 with a min of 562 and a max of 938

Lorr. 155 50 has and average damage of 700 with a min of 525 and a max of 875

 

Now that looks very overpowered right? Just look at those numbers! How can anyone say arty isn't overpowered when those numbers are for French arty and they have the weakest guns?

 

Well I've played thousands of games in the above mentioned tanks and never managed a damage role that was 700. I never managed a damage role that was near 500. My max's are around 250 - 300 with and average around 100. These low numbers I'm posting include shotgunning light tanks in the side at point blank range for a damage role of 200 - 300.

 

The numbers that WarGaming post for arty are entirely unrealistic and don't match reality in the slightest. 

 

Has anyone else noticed that the numbers posted for arty's damage are unrealistic?

 

First this ain't arty hate speech, I click a lot - check my profile.

 

It's how HE works because unless there's something I don't realize about the game how do you know if HE penetrates vs. bleeds through.  Because both are penetrations, but they're vastly different in terms of damage potential.

 

Because afaik there's no announcement, report, etc...   I'm not talking about no pens, but when it hits and pens on a bleed through vs. outright pens.  Maybe there's mods that tell that, but I'm guessing that's serverside data not client side.  Anyhoo...

 

That's one reason they lowered the pen on HE shells and did away with AP/APCR/HEAT for arty.  Because the shots that penned were doing those damage potentials.  Lowering the alpha aided them as well.

 

When HE hits it undergoes a pen check.  I THINK (key word) it rolls for ricochet before that, but not positive.  If it actually pens then the full damage potential is applied.

 

But if it doesn't then half of that potential is immediately lost.  Then the blast is formed in a cone and it has to bleed through the armor at the thinnest point of that cone.  For every mm of armor some of that remaining 50% potential is lost. If the 50 percent is lost before it leeches through then no damage.  If it hits another layer of armor then that compounds it.

 

If it bleeds through the armor then whatever amount of that 50 percent potential remains results in damage.

 

THAT is where those low damage amounts you mention are coming likely coming from, not outright pens.  I know when I hit heavy armor, tracks and the like and it's no or low damage that's what I always figure.



dfox709 #6 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:00

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Really depends on the target.  You should get some good rolls on lightly armored TD's.  I hit a Strv 74 recently with Tier VII arty for around 700.  The arty was one of either the German or French spgs.

xrays_ #7 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:12

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Yep, WarGaming practically killed most French artillery... Kind of sad, really, as they weren't the greatest to begin with, but now they are next to useless. If you don't mind getting stun damage (and that's highly team-dependent) then all the power to you, but, otherwise, they are pretty bad. I remember a 7k+ damage game in my BC/58, but I doubt I could get even half of that in today's game.

 

Basically, artillery has been castrated, but people still complain. And yet, I still play it... Hmm.

 

x.



g4143 #8 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:13

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View Postel_mucho_dingdong, on Jan 10 2018 - 00:57, said:

But, but, but, All I hear every day on the forums is "boo hoo, arty 1-shot me" or "arty is OP". How can this be with only a 200-300 damage roll? :trollface:

 

Usually what happens with these one shot is... arty was the last one to hit the damaged tank for the knock-out and the player just assumes all the damage was from the last shot.

View Postheavymetal1967, on Jan 10 2018 - 01:00, said:

 

First this ain't arty hate speech, I click a lot - check my profile.

 

It's how HE works because unless there's something I don't realize about the game how do you know if HE penetrates vs. bleeds through.  Because both are penetrations, but they're vastly different in terms of damage potential.

 

Because afaik there's no announcement, report, etc...   I'm not talking about no pens, but when it hits and pens on a bleed through vs. outright pens.  Maybe there's mods that tell that, but I'm guessing that's serverside data not client side.  Anyhoo...

 

That's one reason they lowered the pen on HE shells and did away with AP/APCR/HEAT for arty.  Because the shots that penned were doing those damage potentials.  Lowering the alpha aided them as well.

 

When HE hits it undergoes a pen check.  I THINK (key word) it rolls for ricochet before that, but not positive.  If it actually pens then the full damage potential is applied.

 

But if it doesn't then half of that potential is immediately lost.  Then the blast is formed in a cone and it has to bleed through the armor at the thinnest point of that cone.  For every mm of armor some of that remaining 50% potential is lost. If the 50 percent is lost before it leeches through then no damage.  If it hits another layer of armor then that compounds it.

 

If it bleeds through the armor then whatever amount of that 50 percent potential remains results in damage.

 

THAT is where those low damage amounts you mention are coming likely coming from, not outright pens.  I know when I hit heavy armor, tracks and the like and it's no or low damage that's what I always figure.

 

The point is the docs are misleading players into believing that arty are these overpowered vehicles when they are not. The numbers posted are unrealistic when its compared to actual numbers in battle.

g4143 #9 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:16

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View Postdfox709, on Jan 10 2018 - 01:00, said:

Really depends on the target.  You should get some good rolls on lightly armored TD's.  I hit a Strv 74 recently with Tier VII arty for around 700.  The arty was one of either the German or French spgs.

 

But what is your average damage roll in battle when you use arty? Remember they post 700 as the average penetrating damage. 

madgiecool #10 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:17

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does this average take into account all the zer0 damage miss shots?

or is at an average of all the shots that do damage?



_Tsavo_ #11 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:21

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Those damage numbers are if you pen.  With HE, if you don't pen, you lose half of your damage potential off the bat.

Ndtm #12 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:23

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View Postg4143, on Jan 10 2018 - 01:13, said:

Usually what happens with these one shot is... arty was the last one to hit the damaged tank for the knock-out and the player just assumes all the damage was from the last shot.

 

The point is the docs are misleading players into believing that arty are these overpowered vehicles when they are not. The numbers posted are unrealistic when its compared to actual numbers in battle.

docs? documentation? it's well known that if HE fails to pen the damage get cut in half right away before it continues http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Battle_Mechanics#HE_Shells



BigDollarBillz #13 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:25

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I would guess my avg damage in the 53/55 and 92 are between 500 -600. In the batchat I would guess 250-300.

g4143 #14 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:25

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View Post_Tsavo, on Jan 10 2018 - 01:21, said:

Those damage numbers are if you pen.  With HE, if you don't pen, you lose half of your damage potential off the bat.

 

I know they are average values if you penn. What I'm pointing out is the numbers are misleading. I can't remember getting a 700 damage roll or even a 500 damage roll in thousands of games. The numbers paint a picture that just isn't there. A 700 damage roll is getting as likely as a big winning lottery ticket.

Edited by g4143, Jan 10 2018 - 01:27.


dfox709 #15 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:26

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View Postg4143, on Jan 09 2018 - 19:16, said:

 

But what is your average damage roll in battle when you use arty? Remember they post 700 as the average penetrating damage. 

 

Good point - average damage roll is probably around 275 - 300 with the Tier VII French arty when it hits. I think your average damage roll of around 100 is rather low: probably counting near hits/blast damage and bounces.  I find when the Tier VII French arty hits - it is usually a pretty solid damage roll.  I will get near the upper end of the range when scoring a direct hit on SPGs and lightly armoured TDs: I guess this goes back to the pen mechanics and damage as indicated in the previous posts.

Edited by dfox709, Jan 10 2018 - 01:35.


heavymetal1967 #16 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:27

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View Postg4143, on Jan 09 2018 - 19:13, said:

 

Usually what happens with these one shot is... arty was the last one to hit the damaged tank for the knock-out and the player just assumes all the damage was from the last shot.

 

The point is the docs are misleading players into believing that arty are these overpowered vehicles when they are not. The numbers posted are unrealistic when its compared to actual numbers in battle.

 

It's because folks don't understand how the mechanics work.  Should new players have a clue?  NO.  But new players also shouldn't be rolling around in high tier arty or any other tanks posting those amounts and gap differences either.  And WG needs to do a better job at informing them, but HE damage amounts are misleading on all tanks.  It's not unique to arty.

 

That's the same reason we have folks spamming HE out of high tier non derps when they should be shooting AP.  Because they look at the numbers and base their choice on misinformation or no information.  Because HE does more damage. :P

 

And I still don't see why folks that play arty are bemoaning the changes.  Between the increased splash potentials in output and applicability as well as stun for those that have it I view them as a big ole buff.   My arty xp and creds are consistently significantly increased as a result.   100k'ish gross silver in high tier matches (with prem account) is pretty damn common to be honest.

 

Edit:  As for those high rolls, especially in French arty.  It's not common granted, but hit the roof or sides especially of thinner skinned tanks and it's not a mythical beast either.  

 

But I agree the numbers are misleading from the point of new players that don't know how things work.  And not everyone comes to the forum or reads the wiki to learn.  WG has increased newb awareness with their tutorials, they need to continue to work on it imo.


Edited by heavymetal1967, Jan 10 2018 - 01:33.


moon111 #17 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:31

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I noticed a scout making an aggressive initial scouting run.  I nailed the enemy right in his side for 5 hp of damage.  Honestly, if I needed to get SPG damage missions done, I would use my Bishop at tier V. 

 

I did set a tank on fire once, but besides that, damage is usually in the 200's.  The splash damage is almost better as there seems to be a higher likelihood of taking off the tracks as well.



g4143 #18 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:38

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View Postdfox709, on Jan 10 2018 - 01:26, said:

 

Good point - average damage roll is probably around 275 - 300 with the Tier VII French arty when it hits. I think your average damage roll of around 100 is rather low: probably counting near hits/blast damage and bounces.  I find when the Tier VII French arty hits - it is usually a pretty solid damage roll.  I will get near the upper end of the range when scoring a direct hit on SPGs and lightly armoured TDs: I guess this goes back to the pen mechanics and damage as indicated in the previous posts.

 

I find arty to have derpy guns. On good battles I find my average damage around 200. On battles where the RNG is trolling me I find my damage rolls from 0 to 100. Note I'm taking about fully aimed shots on stationary targets,

Edited by g4143, Jan 10 2018 - 01:47.


g4143 #19 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 01:40

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View Postmoon111, on Jan 10 2018 - 01:31, said:

I noticed a scout making an aggressive initial scouting run.  I nailed the enemy right in his side for 5 hp of damage.  Honestly, if I needed to get SPG damage missions done, I would use my Bishop at tier V. 

 

I did set a tank on fire once, but besides that, damage is usually in the 200's.  The splash damage is almost better as there seems to be a higher likelihood of taking off the tracks as well.

 

I shotgunned a scout 'in the side' at point blank range and it drove away from the encounter. BTW, I was KO in that encounter.


Edited by g4143, Jan 10 2018 - 01:54.


megatronx10 #20 Posted Jan 10 2018 - 02:21

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I sort of have to agree with the threads originator, Arty's "posted" damage figures are way off.  Back in the "good old days" of arty, I was able to "one shot" any T95 with my T92, now it takes on average at least 3, if not 4 times to to toast them. And now with the "newer" mega heavies coming on board, if you go up against them with a Bat 58, forget it, even with the 3 shot mag ( it used to be 4 shots ).

WG...bring back arty's  kill shots... the teams will love you for it !!!!!!!!!!!






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