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Light tanks are broken


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SideshowBob_ #81 Posted Jan 17 2018 - 23:50

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View PostHisNameWasSethRich, on Jan 11 2018 - 01:51, said:

Learn how to drive and Spam HEAT. Easy. 

 

lol paid reply by WG ...... :P

BillT #82 Posted Jan 17 2018 - 23:59

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View PostThePigSheFlies, on Jan 17 2018 - 13:21, said:

I personally find it interesting that anyone would run a french LT w/out optics.  since they're auto loaders they don't need a rammer,

 

Me, too. 

 

It makes me think that the French lights are attracting a lot of pew-pew weenies who just like to drive fast and shoot stuff. (I'm not saying all of the French light players are like that, just that this sort of person would naturally be attracted to the French line.)   They must be using these as fast medium tanks, not scouts.



BillT #83 Posted Jan 18 2018 - 00:27

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View PostProsqtor, on Jan 17 2018 - 13:53, said:

Most people here are missing the fundamental advantage of light tanks (I forget it myself a lot).  Light tanks do not lose camo when moving.  This gives them a HUGE advantage over medium tanks WHEN the map is not a corridor map.  On other maps, lights are just mediums that turn sharper.  On a few maps, lights are god-like.

 

I get that.  The idea is that the light tank is driving around, getting close enough to mediums to spot them but not so close they can spot him.   But corridor, schmorridor... how often is that really practical on any map?   Sure, there are times when I light up an enemy medium and my sixth sense doesn't go off, but those are almost always very early in a match while both sides are still moving into position.  I can't keep it up all match because, A) once the enemy gets partway down the map, I don't have enough room to stay that far away from them, and B) the terrain rarely allows me to have a direct line of sight from that long of a distance.  

 

The maps where I do well in a light tanks are maps with lots of hills I can use, like the mid-map ridge on Prokhorovka.  Ride low behind it to stay hidden, pop up for a spot, get back down before anyone has time to aim and hit you, then ride low again until you're no longer spotted... never stop moving, rinse and repeat.  I don't need to spot without being spotted.  But there just aren't many maps where you can do this. 



MiddleAgedNoob #84 Posted Jan 18 2018 - 03:06

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View PostBillT, on Jan 17 2018 - 23:48, said:

Fewer than half of light tanks are equipped with coated optics.  Maybe the rest are using binocs... but I doubt it. But only 30% of medium tanks use coated optics.

Fewer than half of lights bother with vents, either. (47%)  52% of medium tankers think vents are worth carrying.

 

I think these are questionable choices by light tank players.   What are they mounting instead of these modules?  Are they using stablizers and GLDs to try to act like medium tanks?  Or maybe camo nets and binocs for static scouting, despite the fact that doesn't work on most maps?  (Or maybe I'm wrong for thinking Coated Optics and Vents are mandatory for light tanks.)

 

For crew skills, it's hard to believe that light tankers are less likely to use Recon than medium tankers and are much less likely to use BIA.  But maybe this points to an answer.  I think the average Tier 8 light tank crew has fewer crew skills than the average tier 8 medium crew.  That makes sense given that lights > tier 6 are a relatively new thing, and also given the lack of tier 8 premium light tanks as trainers.. A lot of lights must be running around with just one or two skills -- Sixth Sense, for the commander, and either BIA or recon, but not both.  Which means that in time we might see light tanks' average view range grow, compared to mediums'.

 

(A lot of speculation from a little data, I know, but I love try to read a system's entrails via datamining.)

 

 

 

Two points:  On binocs, I started to look at them, but it became clear that few people were using them.  They were most popular on the BC 12t, and even there is was only 10.4%  That surprised me, especially since they can be moved from tank to tank for free, so should be more popular with the thrifty or poor.  On skills, I think that you are right, and would go a bit further.  Some tanks had far higher crew skills numbers overall than did others, suggesting that they had been played much longer.  I'd have to check, but my recollection was that there were more mediums in this category than lights.  Another skill related issue would be crew complement.  Vehicles where the commander and radio operator are different crew members would be more likely to have both SA and Recon skills.  I did not really look into this.

 

A third point, sort of.  The numbers I drew from vbaddict were for the general player base, since that's what I was wondering about, what you would experience in game.  Numbers for unicums are different, sometimes markedly so.

 

I've started to extend the analysis to tier 9.  I can post Excel files or copy-and-paste, if there is an interest.



8_Hussars #85 Posted Jan 18 2018 - 05:18

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View PostBillT, on Jan 17 2018 - 15:48, said:

Fewer than half of light tanks are equipped with coated optics.  Maybe the rest are using binocs... but I doubt it. But only 30% of medium tanks use coated optics.

Fewer than half of lights bother with vents, either. (47%)  52% of medium tankers think vents are worth carrying.

 

I think these are questionable choices by light tank players.   What are they mounting instead of these modules?  Are they using stablizers and GLDs to try to act like medium tanks?  Or maybe camo nets and binocs for static scouting, despite the fact that doesn't work on most maps?  (Or maybe I'm wrong for thinking Coated Optics and Vents are mandatory for light tanks.)

 

It was the intent of WG (with the introduction of T10 lts and removing scout MM) to make lights run optics to get medium like view ranges; to more define them as a class and discourage playing them as pocket mediums. 

How is the data affected by tier?  As most tanks below Tier 5 are "light tanks" and they generally are not running equipment or not running the optimum set up.  Further, most tankers make some odd choices.

 

 As a light tank you still have to contribute damage therefore the general loadout is VStab, Rammer, Optics with Vents over Rammer for autoloaders; unless there is something about the tank that need drastically fixed or over performs.   

 

View PostBillT, on Jan 17 2018 - 15:48, said:

For crew skills, it's hard to believe that light tankers are less likely to use Recon than medium tankers and are much less likely to use BIA.  But maybe this points to an answer.  I think the average Tier 8 light tank crew has fewer crew skills than the average tier 8 medium crew.  That makes sense given that lights > tier 6 are a relatively new thing, and also given the lack of tier 8 premium light tanks as trainers.. A lot of lights must be running around with just one or two skills -- Sixth Sense, for the commander, and either BIA or recon, but not both.  Which means that in time we might see light tanks' average view range grow, compared to mediums'.

Again how is the data affected by tier?  As most tanks below Tier 5 are "light tanks" and they generally are not running good crews.  Further, most light tanks run four or three crew members and the commander is often the radio operator.  Thus many skills on a light crew are higher priority than Recon especially when SA is automatically better.  Further due to the smaller multi-disciplined Light Tanks crews needing the same or more skills obviously they take longer to develop. In addition to 6th camo is a LT bread and butter, then view range/gun handling skills, and then recon and others.  BIA is usually a retrain at 3+ skills and considering BIA minorly outperforms Recon it is often chosen well after.    



BillT #86 Posted Jan 18 2018 - 06:44

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View Post8_Hussars, on Jan 17 2018 - 23:18, said:

 

How is the data affected by tier?  As most tanks below Tier 5 are "light tanks" and they generally are not running equipment or not running the optimum set up.  Further, most tankers make some odd choices.

  

 

The data we're discussing is all for Tier 8.



FlakKnight #87 Posted Jan 18 2018 - 07:04

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View Post8_Hussars, on Jan 18 2018 - 04:18, said:

 

It was the intent of WG (with the introduction of T10 lts and removing scout MM) to make lights run optics to get medium like view ranges; to more define them as a class and discourage playing them as pocket mediums. 

How is the data affected by tier?  As most tanks below Tier 5 are "light tanks" and they generally are not running equipment or not running the optimum set up.  Further, most tankers make some odd choices.

 

 As a light tank you still have to contribute damage therefore the general loadout is VStab, Rammer, Optics with Vents over Rammer for autoloaders; unless there is something about the tank that need drastically fixed or over performs.   

 

Again how is the data affected by tier?  As most tanks below Tier 5 are "light tanks" and they generally are not running good crews.  Further, most light tanks run four or three crew members and the commander is often the radio operator.  Thus many skills on a light crew are higher priority than Recon especially when SA is automatically better.  Further due to the smaller multi-disciplined Light Tanks crews needing the same or more skills obviously they take longer to develop. In addition to 6th camo is a LT bread and butter, then view range/gun handling skills, and then recon and others.  BIA is usually a retrain at 3+ skills and considering BIA minorly outperforms Recon it is often chosen well after.    

 

This "idea" that WG has where since mediums have a high view range that rivals light tanks if you don't cripple light tank view range they might run dpm equipment and still do less dpm than mediums because they don't have the armor to engage while spotting in many situations is just baffling to me.  Especially when the BC25t exists.

 

Lights need something that mediums don't bring which actually affects the same in a practical way and not in constrained edge cases.  But obviously, since WG won't just nerf mediums across the board to make high view range rare and valued, they need to do something else.  Whatever that is (+ pen marking ability, camo piercing spotting, increased sight duration after LoS breaks, etc.) it just needs to be a thing that is useful and you don't get elsewhere.

 

With the power creep (currently on mediums it's insane turret armor), where does a light tank fit on current maps?  Even the Leo 1, which through power creep is now effectively a Sheridan with slightly more dpm, is consider a hard pass as a support medium due to better, newer tanks.  

 

Blah blah, camo while moving, but realistically most maps and engagements mean this is a worthless trait because you have to disengage from area under observation, drive back to safe (also usually only) area between corridors, then drive up in bush cover on new corridor.  Hard cover hides everything and every map is littered with it now.



Prosqtor #88 Posted Jan 18 2018 - 15:02

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View PostBillT, on Jan 17 2018 - 18:27, said:

 

I get that.  The idea is that the light tank is driving around, getting close enough to mediums to spot them but not so close they can spot him.   But corridor, schmorridor... how often is that really practical on any map?   Sure, there are times when I light up an enemy medium and my sixth sense doesn't go off, but those are almost always very early in a match while both sides are still moving into position.  I can't keep it up all match because, A) once the enemy gets partway down the map, I don't have enough room to stay that far away from them, and B) the terrain rarely allows me to have a direct line of sight from that long of a distance.  

 

The maps where I do well in a light tanks are maps with lots of hills I can use, like the mid-map ridge on Prokhorovka.  Ride low behind it to stay hidden, pop up for a spot, get back down before anyone has time to aim and hit you, then ride low again until you're no longer spotted... never stop moving, rinse and repeat.  I don't need to spot without being spotted.  But there just aren't many maps where you can do this. 

 

Watch Circonflexes when he drives light tanks.  He does amazing, amazing things getting just close enough to spot but not close enough to be spotted.

 



QuicksilverJPR #89 Posted Jan 18 2018 - 15:21

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View PostTrooperZZ, on Jan 17 2018 - 11:48, said:

Maps are too small.

 

Another statement from a person that probably doesn't even understand basic game mechanics or light tank play in general...




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