Jump to content


9.22 CT: Soviet TD Review and Suggestions


  • Please log in to reply
10 replies to this topic

DeadArashi #1 Posted Jan 21 2018 - 12:01

    Corporal

  • Players
  • 20 battles
  • 63
  • Member since:
    05-25-2013

I'm sure people know me by now for my extensive suggestion for the Soviet TD line, but now that the test server's out, I thought I would do a review on each of the tanks from tier 7 to 10 as well my final thoughts on the line at the end.

 

But first, let's set some things straight.

Why is WG changing the line? Because the tanks leading to the Obj 263 don't play like the 263

The goal for changing the line? To make the tanks leading up to the tier 10 play like the tier 10. In this case, to change them from snipers to brawlers.

What makes for a good brawling TD? A combination of reliable armour as well as either high DPM or high alpha damage. Prime examples would be the T95 and Tortoise.

 

Simple enough... right?

 

NOTE: I will state right now that this is all my own opinion. This is not meant to represent anyone else, you are entitled to your own opinion on these changes.

 


 

Tier 7: SU-100M1

 

The beginning of the rear casement line, it's only real selling point is the gun. It has great DPM of 2,654, 0.32 dispersion lets it hit enemies reliably and snap shots quickly thanks to the 1.63 sec aim time. It's rather mobile as well with a top speed of 50km/h, 18.64hp/t and capable of turning at 35.46 deg per sec. Couple all this with weak armour and it's a bit of a glass cannon; able to dish out a lot of damage quickly, but get spotted and you will be melted quickly.

 

WG's vision is to turn this into a brawler, so naturally the first thing to do was to increase the armour. Upper plate got increased from 90 to 140mm with the casement going up to 210mm. For a tier 7 the casement is amazing but anything with more then 210mm of pen will punch right through your upper plate still and the cupola on the roof is still 90mm as well. But the armour's workable. If you're top tier you can get up close to enemies so they can't shoot your hull and slowly chip away at their health.

 

And I must emphasise slowly, the DPM has dropped considerably to 2,203. If you're bottom tier you might be thinking, "I'll just sit back and go hull down and snipe enemies"... yer think again, accuracy has dropped to 0.39, forcing you to get close to be the most accurate. On the plus side, gun arc has been increased from 8 deg on each side to 12.

 

Mobility isn't much of an issue with the speed being buffed to 54/-16, right up until you look at the engine. Yes, WG has taken 80hp off the engines dropping them to 520 giving it a power to weight 16.25. To further deepen the cut to the mobility, hull traverse has been slowed down to 26.07 deg/s.

 

Verdict:

This tank's just not enjoyable. It was bearable before but I honestly feel bad for anyone still grinding this tank should these changes come in. The loss of accuracy and DPM isn't worth a massive buff to casement front if it has to get so close enemies can just shoot your weak hell and flank you due to the slow turning speed. The loss of the sniping capabilities really hurts the tank

 

Suggestion:

  • Buff DPM to about 2,400
  • Buff dispersion to about 0.35

 


 

Tier 8: SU-101

 

What to say here, it played much like the 100M1 before it, but with thicker, more sloped casement with a ring of 150mm armour, it could pull off some troll bounces. With this update the entire casement front has been buffed up to 150mm giving you 238mm of effective armour when not angled. The entire 90mm hull front has been buffed to 120mm on both the upper and lower plates. The armour lets you get nice and close to face hug enemies, not many tier 8 HTs will be able penetrate your casement. But be careful of tall tanks as they can shoot down onto your weak engine deck.

 

Reverse speed has been increased from 16 to 18 but it loses 60hp from its engine dropping down to 620hp resulting in a power to weight of 18.07 from 19.82 and a traverse speed of 26.07 down from 37.54 deg/s.

 

If you were a fan of the 100mm then I suggest you get used to the 122mm gun. DPM of the 100mm has dropped from 2,988 to 2,200 with aim time increased from 2.01 to 2.21. Dispersion has also worsened, reaching 0.37. The 122mm wasn't hit as hard. DPM only dropped 99 to 2,185. Aim time was buffed by 0.57 sec to give it a 2.4 sec aim time but, once again, the accuracy became none existent going to 0.4.

 

One thing to note is that both the 100mm and 122mm both have the same gun arc now, 10 deg to the left and 12 deg to the right. A small buff to gun depression was also added giving it 3 deg on both gun.

 

Verdict:

The tank's actually not bad, as long as it's a good match up you can generally perform well. As mentioned, the armor lets you face hug a lot of enemies that are equal tier but anything higher and you want to stay back and get hull down. Like the 100M1, the loss of accuracy and DPM is a heavy blow to the tank as a whole but it's not nearly as crippling as it is to the 100M1

 

Suggestions:

  • Buff DPM on the 100mm to about 2,500
  • Buff dispersion on the 100mm to about 0.35
  • Buff DPM on the 122mm to about 2,350
  • Buff dispersion on the 122mm to about 0.37

 


 

Tier 9: Obj 263

 

The old king... let's start with armour. It hasn't changed at all. For this I'm glad, yet saddened at the same time. Glad because it's got 250mm of casement and upper plate armour, saddened because the LFP is still weak at 150mm, although it being tier 9 does admittedly help slightly. But the biggest thing is the hull side armour, it's still 60mm. Ummm, WG? Why does the tier 9 have less side armour then the tier 7 and 8? Let me explain why this is bad. The tank's [edited] long, there's so much of it to take around a corner that side armour very important, if it's weak then it's not going to help at all. Historically speaking it should be 90mm thick. Historically speaking the upper plate should be 300mm but that's a different matter.

 

Mobility actually gets a bit better with engine power going up to 1,100 giving a power to weight of 18.33 hp/t. Tank traverse however takes yet another hit dropping from 33.37 to 26.07

 

The gun, it gets a modified version of is current 130mm S-70A as the top gun and the 122mm M64-C2 off the SU-122-54. Let's start with the 122mm

 

DPM has dropped from 3,128 on the SU to 2,238 on the 263. Aim time is a lot faster at 2.01 sec but accuracy is crapat 0.4. The 130mm has the same aim time as the 122mm but slightly worse dispersion of 0.41. DPM has dropped from 3,216 at tier 10 to 2,249 at tier 9. The gun penetration has also dropped from 290/330/75 to 270/300/75, which in all fairness isn't horrible for a tier 9 tank.

 

Verdict:

The reason I like the Obj 263 on the live server is because it's something new, it's flexible. The combination of mobility, armour, gun handling and DPM let it change roles to adapt to different situations. Because the LFP is so big and the gun mantlet is a gold magnet, it worked best as a sniper in early game where its armour was the most effective. But without the DPM or, more importantly, the accuracy, it can't do that so it's forced to get close, magnify the weakspots and not be able to trade effectively.

Had they gone for more DPM and more side armour it could have worked but in all honesty even then I wouldn't put it at tier 9. It visually doesn't fit the line. You have a line of tanks with fully enclosed casements where even the gun mantlets are visually similar at tiers 7, 8 and 10, then suddenly there's the Obj 263. Even if it's an alternate tier 10 it still would be too visually different and adding in the Obj 262 as an alternative tier 9 could work, but even then that's too visually different again. Which is why...

 

Suggestions:

  • Remove from the tech tree and make it a special tank for those that own it
  • Buff side armour to 90mm
  • Buff gun arc to 12 deg either side

 

  • Introduce Obj 268 Ver 2 at tier 9 (see suggest stats below)

 


 

Tier 10: Obj 268 Ver 4

 

The new tier 10. I really didn't like the idea of this taking over the spot of the Obj 263, but after playing it, it's rather fun. It has roughly the same penetration as the tier 10 Obj 263 with 650 alpha damage. It's a good hit but just less then average. The aim time is ludicrously fast for a 152mm at 1.92 sec, but then again it wouldn't take long to aim when the dispersion's 0.4. The nice thing is that it gets 12 deg of gun arc to each side so you can put some solid angling on your armor.

 

It's also fast, top speed of 55km/h forward and 22km/h in reverse. It may weigh 75 ton but with a 1,500hp engine you don't feel the weight at all until you start turning the tank which is 23.99 deg/s, nearly 10 deg/s slower then the tier 10 Obj 263, but you don't want to be in front of it when it's got speed going because this thing will ram you for all you're worth. Needless to say, I will be running spall liner and controlled impact... RAMMING SPEED!

 

Ramming is also made viable thanks to the fact that ramming damage is based on your armour thickness against the enemies, so having a plate that's 290mm thick be the first thing to impact the enemy tends to put rams in your favour. The upper and lower plates are 100mm thick but they're sufficiently angled that they will bounce just about anything automatically. The casement is 250mm, same as the Obj 263, but it's not as well sloped so the effective armour is much less making it susceptible to gold spam. A key weakspot to note from the front is the commanders cupola, but that's still 250mm of flat armour and can be hidden behind buildings.

 

Verdict

Overall the tank's incredibly strong, even with 400+ ping I'm achieving 5k damage games while blocking 4-5k damage where most of that is premium, it does lead me to think that the armour a tad too strong. A major drawback on the tank which I feel will deter people from going to it though is its abysmal DPM and dispersion.

 

Suggestions

  • Buff DPM to about 2,700
  • Buff dispersion to about 0.37
  • Nerf top speed to 44km/h

 


 

Overall Verdict

 

While I enjoy the Obj 268 Ver 4, it suffers from the same issue that the Obj 263 does; the tanks before it aren't that great. Before it was because their armour and gun arcs were crapweren't similar to the Obj 263, now it's turned into a line that's crapbecause the gun's are [edited]  and the tanks can't play like the tier 10 because... their lower plate armour makes it dangerous for them to try to close the distance.

 

Because of this, I don't see the Obj 268 Ver 4 being any more popular then the Obj 263 currently is. While it's good, it's just not worth the frustration of constantly missing important shots due to horrible accuracy and not being able to recover with a quick follow up shot due to poor DPM.

 

The aim of my suggestions are to bring all the tanks up in DPM to be a bit more competitive. With higher DPM they will be able to trade better in close range engagements. With better accuracy, between the new and old, it would also allow them to be a bit more flexible in how they're played

 

I would also suggest a buff to the current Obj 268, it's in need of some love. More alpha damage (possible 850) while maintaining the same DPM would make it a feared tank. An increase to its mobility to be similar to the Obj 268 Ver 4 would make it an alternate choice. A mobile snipe with less armour but a bigger punch

 


 

Final Line and Stat Suggestion

 


Edited by DeadArashi, Jan 29 2018 - 07:41.


Firemoth #2 Posted Jan 21 2018 - 12:41

    Major

  • Players
  • 37007 battles
  • 3,933
  • Member since:
    05-21-2011

having lower DPM is ok, they can always buff it later on if it underperforms.



DeadArashi #3 Posted Jan 21 2018 - 12:44

    Corporal

  • Players
  • 20 battles
  • 63
  • Member since:
    05-25-2013

or, you know, they could use the test server to test it changes now before putting them on live server? Why rush it?

 

Yer, everything's subject to change, but look at their stance on the Type 5. "change"

 

Nar that came out overly aggressive. You're right, it can always be buffed later but honestly, it shouldn't have to hit live server before it gets buffed, that's why the tests are held in the first place. And there's that many people on the test server that they should be able to collect plenty of data

Should changes to the tanks be made my opinion will probably change with it and I'll update this post accordingly


Edited by DeadArashi, Jan 21 2018 - 12:59.


Kollea_mkII #4 Posted Jan 21 2018 - 17:16

    Private

  • Players
  • 21762 battles
  • 4
  • [SABOT] SABOT
  • Member since:
    01-16-2013

This is the ticket I sent to WG. Some interesting points from a player who loves their 263.

 

After playing several hours of the recently released common test server session, I noticed some things that would have a negative impact on players. I have submitted tickets before regarding this topic, but now after playing the real deal, I need to voice my (and many others) opinion. Hopefully you will take what I have to say to the development team as many others share my thoughts.

First off I noticed that nearly every line in the soviet tech tree has received a second branch and new tier 10 tanks. This is awesome. Love having options open up with more potential replay value. It really gives out more content for players. However this same treatment was not given to one particular line. The TD line. In the past you have removed tanks for various reasons, but players were often gifted their late tier 10s as special tier 10 tanks that only players who owned them before the patch could have. When the 113 Chinese line was revised a second tier 10 was added to the game which was awesome, really makes people want to spend more hours in your game potentially buying gold to grind for this new tank. This also gave the players freedom of choice to choose which tank they would like to play. This was also done in your recent common test, but the Obj. 263 was moved to tier 9 and nerfed. A lot.

Obj. 263
- Okay... this was not a good experience by any means. Right of the starting line this tank felt super heavy and underpowered. The top speed was good as usual, but the overall mobility was pretty bad beyond that. I understand on paper the numbers changed very slightly, but in game it makes a huge difference. The gun was a pretty big disappointment being at a 13 second reload and it just did not seem to fit at all. Probably the worst revision was the concealment rating. Going from 38.52 to 14.14... What? This is worse than the FV4005 which gets spotted right out of the cap circle. 14.14 is among the worst camo stats for any tier 10 TD in your game. Very poor revisions in my opinion.

Obj. 268 V4
- To be honest this tank is not as bad as I expected it to be on paper a month ago. The top speed resembles the 263 and the armor literally feels no different from the original 263. In fact you only added 20mm on the sides. For a main argument of why this needed to be the replacement being armor, I think that was unnecessary. The 263 is a frontal fighting tank, we don't need side armor. If armor is your selling point, please buff the armor. The gun on the V4 is decent, but lacks slightly in accuracy. The reload? The worst part of this tank. 16 seconds is stupid long in game for only 650 average damage. Which tanks like the T110E3 average at 750 with similar rounds per minute. Plus, the V4 gets in roughly over 3 shots per minute compared to the 263s original 6.5. Wow. The FV4005 has just over 2 rounds per minute and can deal over 1600 damage easy per shot if weak spots are hit. Why wouldn't I play the FV with better camo and damage output over the V4? Good question. This is a good tank, but is it a replacement for the 263? No.

Tech tree
- The soviet tree is now very awkward. Players now go from open top at tier 4 with the SU85-B to closed top until tier 9 where they will play against high caliber SPGs and HE rounds in the 263, only to be brought back to closed top at tier 10. What? Why? This is almost as bad as your rear mount/front mount German TD line which makes no sense when preparing players for tier 10. Open top tanks need to play in concealment so SPGs cannot spot them, hence why the 263 had a high camo rating. Now you are going to nerf it so bad that SPGs will target that tank out in the open. You have now made your problem with this line worse. The 263 was never the problem. It was the tanks before it. Su100M1 and SU101. The V4 falls short when compared to the 263 in nearly every way and these changes are not really improving anything.

A better way to fix these issues would be to have consistency throughout your whole patch. Add a second line leading to the V4 or 263 or add the Obj. 263 as a reward tank for those who worked for it and use a different tier 9. The SU 122 54 would make more sense as the tier 9 leading to the V4 than the 263 would. If you choose to go through with this revision you guys are so fond of at least decrease reload times significantly. This patch really isn't wanted by the 263 owners. Give players a choice. The 263 is your most unique tank. Don't take that way from us. It doesn't deserve it.



mworthy #5 Posted Jan 22 2018 - 07:37

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 10494 battles
  • 865
  • [941ST] 941ST
  • Member since:
    05-14-2011

the su-101's 100mm honestly needs a pen buff personally at least have it wher you have an option between a heavy hitting gun or a faster sniping gun with it.

honestly nerfing the line is a terrible decision since technically all you needed to do to get people to play the line is buff them, not overkill buff them but buff some of the minor things that are issues with the vehicles



DeadArashi #6 Posted Jan 24 2018 - 01:30

    Corporal

  • Players
  • 20 battles
  • 63
  • Member since:
    05-25-2013

Just edited my suggestions in the OP

 

Rather then buffing the armor of the liver server version, I've opted instead to go with WG's test server stats and buff the DPM and accuracy of those instead.

The Obj 263 still wouldn't fit into the line visually or playstyle wise so it can be removed and made into a special tank. WG shouldn't have an issue with this since it would encourage people to spend money on gold to free exp the Obj 263 to get a free tier 10 out of it



canciller #7 Posted Jan 28 2018 - 17:15

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 37175 battles
  • 147
  • Member since:
    06-08-2012

Tell me how simple this solution is https://i.imgur.com/QFMX68u.png , however the developers are a few simple guys who do not have any kind of game notion look who says that the SU-122-54 does not bounce https://i.imgur.com/q7IohLu.jpg , thanks to the developers for wasting time on many players and lost investment

 

Good Job



DeadArashi #8 Posted Jan 29 2018 - 02:01

    Corporal

  • Players
  • 20 battles
  • 63
  • Member since:
    05-25-2013

While I would like the Obj 263 kept in the line, there's a few things that stop that.

Firstly, it's not a matter of if the SU-122-54 can bounce shots or not, it just doesn't fit the line of rear casement tanks

Secondly, the Obj 263 doesn't fit the line visually. If the Obj 262 was added at tier 9 it could work but even then the line's not visually similar. With the Obj 268 V2 and Ver 4 it's a lot smoother in progression

Thirdly, if the Obj 263 were to be a special tier 10 then people would be inclined to spend money on gold to free exp to get it. This provides profit for WG while keeping the 263 at tier 10; it's a win/win for both devs and players



Mikosah #9 Posted Jan 29 2018 - 06:05

    Major

  • Players
  • 17582 battles
  • 3,987
  • Member since:
    01-24-2013

Before anything else is said, the idea of having to relocate/replace/remove any tank in the tech tree should be considered a very desperate measure that is only used when all other options are exhausted. Even in a best-case-scenario, having to rearrange the tech tree causes a lot of headaches. So anything less than a best-case-scenario is going to be a disaster. That said, my experience has been that the 268v4 does bring a new playstyle to the table- and that is to haul a ridiculous amount of armor very far forward very quickly in the beginning of a match. You can take medium tank positions with what is essentially the frontal protection of a super-heavy. That's new, and its unique. But the whole point of the rearrangement was to make the playstyle remain consistent throughout the whole TD line, and I would not expect any of the other TDs in the line to do the same even considering their new armor buffs. MM just isn't that generous in practice. So the consistency idea is already out the window, and the tiers 7-9 are impractical and uncomfortable. Even the 268v4 itself can be accused of being a gimped turret-less heavy to use and simultaneously a cancerous gold-magnet to play against.

 

So here's a few options to rectify the situation:

Scheme 1- Leave the 263 line in place, buff gun depression and/or traverse limits to improve popularity, have the 268v4 offshoot from either of the tier 9 TDs or as a clan/mission reward.

Scheme 2- Use the layout currently on the test server, but reduce frontal armor in exchange for better hull traverse, accuracy, and DPM. Let these be more conventional and flexible TDs.

Scheme 3- Add new alternative guns to allow other playstyles to be used. For example, giving the 268v4 the option to use a 130mm with high DPM.

 

And as for the other things going on in the test server, I feel the same way. None of the other proposed changes are necessary. The 430 for instance could just get the 122mm as an alternate gun and we wouldn't have to reorganize the medium line. The T-10 fits better between the IS-3 and the IS-7 than the obj 257 does. And the new rear-turret heavies are now heavily intruding into the ST-I and IS-4's niche. As for the T-44, T-44-100, and Mod1 buffs, agreed that tier 8 mediums in general are lethargic and undergunned, so why only buff these three?

 



TsarCidron #10 Posted Jan 29 2018 - 06:17

    Major

  • Players
  • 6791 battles
  • 7,865
  • [RAIDM] RAIDM
  • Member since:
    03-16-2012
101M..   Wargaming isnt known to nerf things... rather, they are known to overnerf things. (see: Hellcat) .  This may be up there, if the data translates as you describe. Trying to grind thru it... not sure if I have the time to exit prior to patch.

DeadArashi #11 Posted Jan 29 2018 - 07:43

    Corporal

  • Players
  • 20 battles
  • 63
  • Member since:
    05-25-2013

View PostMikosah, on Jan 29 2018 - 05:05, said:

Before anything else is said, the idea of having to relocate/replace/remove any tank in the tech tree should be considered a very desperate measure that is only used when all other options are exhausted. Even in a best-case-scenario, having to rearrange the tech tree causes a lot of headaches. So anything less than a best-case-scenario is going to be a disaster. That said, my experience has been that the 268v4 does bring a new playstyle to the table- and that is to haul a ridiculous amount of armor very far forward very quickly in the beginning of a match. You can take medium tank positions with what is essentially the frontal protection of a super-heavy. That's new, and its unique. But the whole point of the rearrangement was to make the playstyle remain consistent throughout the whole TD line, and I would not expect any of the other TDs in the line to do the same even considering their new armor buffs. MM just isn't that generous in practice. So the consistency idea is already out the window, and the tiers 7-9 are impractical and uncomfortable. Even the 268v4 itself can be accused of being a gimped turret-less heavy to use and simultaneously a cancerous gold-magnet to play against.

 

So here's a few options to rectify the situation:

Scheme 1- Leave the 263 line in place, buff gun depression and/or traverse limits to improve popularity, have the 268v4 offshoot from either of the tier 9 TDs or as a clan/mission reward.

Scheme 2- Use the layout currently on the test server, but reduce frontal armor in exchange for better hull traverse, accuracy, and DPM. Let these be more conventional and flexible TDs.

Scheme 3- Add new alternative guns to allow other playstyles to be used. For example, giving the 268v4 the option to use a 130mm with high DPM.

 

And as for the other things going on in the test server, I feel the same way. None of the other proposed changes are necessary. The 430 for instance could just get the 122mm as an alternate gun and we wouldn't have to reorganize the medium line. The T-10 fits better between the IS-3 and the IS-7 than the obj 257 does. And the new rear-turret heavies are now heavily intruding into the ST-I and IS-4's niche. As for the T-44, T-44-100, and Mod1 buffs, agreed that tier 8 mediums in general are lethargic and undergunned, so why only buff these three?

 

 

Well the SU-122-54 can stay in the tech tree as a possible alternative to the Obj 704 in that line

the Obj 263 can stay at tier 10 as an alternative to the Obj 268 Ver 4 both building off from the Obj 268 Ver 2. If WG improved the DPM and accuracy of the tanks on the test server using my suggestion, those tanks would play more similar to the Obj 263 while the Obj 268 V4 would be a slower, more heavily armored brawling alternative 




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users