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how come you don't take skill/win rate into account in matchmaking


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NeatoMan #1861 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 19:48

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What's the difference between a blowout like the one above and one with a balanced team if they both unfold the same way? You and ejc and keep saying the unbalanced ones are faster. Now you are not. If they aren't faster, then your only distinguishing feature is XVM.

You keep going back and forth. "It's about blowouts... No, it's about XVM... No wait..."

So if your 40% of games doesn't cause many more blowouts, and the blowouts aren't any faster then what are you left with?  "XVM told me so"

QuicksilverJPR #1862 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 21:04

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View PostNixeldon, on Mar 15 2018 - 09:56, said:

Reread exactly what he stated.

 

I have spent the past 4 days reviewing replays and screenshots. You are more than welcome to look at them yourself. 

 

EDIT: If you are referring to his second statement, yes. At the 3 minute mark, I have some matches where a team has a 6 tank or 5k HP deficit. But not at the 2 minute mark. According to Budha you didn't win any of those.

 

Try reading the part I quoted.  I'm responding to that, and only that...

Nixeldon #1863 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 21:11

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View PostQuicksilverJPR, on Mar 15 2018 - 15:04, said:

Try reading the part I quoted.  I'm responding to that, and only that...

You quoted me:

 

View PostNixeldon, on Mar 15 2018 - 09:30, said:

Those matches are so rare, I can't find any in my past 800 matches. Then again, I don't play tier 2 that often.

There is no information in that statement that says anything about the 2-3 matches you get everyday, exactly like this.


Edited by Nixeldon, Mar 15 2018 - 21:14.


StiffWind #1864 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 21:16

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View PostJer1413, on Mar 14 2018 - 12:03, said:

 

You're the one who stated "all things being equal". I was just clarifying that obviously they aren't. Some players are better than others and naturally give their team an advantage.

 

Balancing teams artificially just allows poor players to win as much as good players. How is that fair?

 

When things like tier, tank type and maps are balanced it is an attempt to take these out of the equation as far as one team having an advantage over the other.

 

When you balance skill, you also remove it from the equation so it is now meaningless as to the outcome. So your skill has no bearing on whether you win or lose. Who wants to play a game like that? I strive to get better at the game so I can win more, it's as simple as that.

 

 

My point is they start out with an advantage already, regardless of skill, due to the nature of the way WoT "arranges" this game.  Stick to the point, instead of trying to deflect into a tangent...it will help with your apparent lack of understanding.

StiffWind #1865 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 21:18

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View PostNeatoMan, on Mar 15 2018 - 19:48, said:

What's the difference between a blowout like the one above and one with a balanced team if they both unfold the same way? You and ejc and keep saying the unbalanced ones are faster. Now you are not. If they aren't faster, then your only distinguishing feature is XVM.

You keep going back and forth. "It's about blowouts... No, it's about XVM... No wait..."

So if your 40% of games doesn't cause many more blowouts, and the blowouts aren't any faster then what are you left with?  "XVM told me so"

 

One is caused by WoT, and the other is not.  Duh.

 



Hurk #1866 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 21:24

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View PostNeatoMan, on Mar 15 2018 - 11:48, said:

What's the difference between a blowout like the one above and one with a balanced team if they both unfold the same way? You and ejc and keep saying the unbalanced ones are faster. Now you are not. If they aren't faster, then your only distinguishing feature is XVM.

You keep going back and forth. "It's about blowouts... No, it's about XVM... No wait..."

So if your 40% of games doesn't cause many more blowouts, and the blowouts aren't any faster then what are you left with?  "XVM told me so"

to put this simply, what do you do when you still get these blowouts with balanced teams? 

answer... a result they will somehow claim is wrong in some other way. 

 

in my battles i have lost 95% matches and won 5% matches. i have steamrolled purple teams and been steamrolled by red teams. 

none of it had anything to do with matching alone, a lot of it had to do with skill, and some of it had to do with the other dozen factors that affect games. 

 

if you want less blowouts, then WoT is not your game. this game does not have, and will never have, anti-snowball mechanics. 



QuicksilverJPR #1867 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 21:27

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View PostNixeldon, on Mar 15 2018 - 15:11, said:

You quoted me:

 

There is no information in that statement that says anything about the 2-3 matches you get everyday, exactly like this.

 

Can you post those videos :teethhappy:

 

I bet I can find them...



Nixeldon #1868 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 21:30

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View PostSoTrue, on Mar 15 2018 - 13:18, said:

You guys are daft.  Let me draw it out for you all 3rd grade style:

 

There is no excuse for anyone to have to play this kind of bullcrap matchup.  There was no reason a sbmm couldn't have picked these exact 30 tanks, and then swapped a few players so that both teams were 'close to' even.  For all the cries of 'sbmm will punish good players', the random fan boys don't seen to have a problem with the one good player on the enemy team being saddled with a crap team.   This is the definition of punishing a good player.  Sbmm would eliminate this punishment.

Getting steamrolled in 4 minutes is fine as long as the teams fit your idea of balanced, as you interpret it from XVM color matching. Steamrolls are bad if a stronger team does it outside of your idea of balanced, as you interpret it from XVM color matching. If a team is a heavy underdog and steamrolls a team, we should ignore it.

 

TrueBudha,"The only thing that matters is color-coded matches."

 



Jer1413 #1869 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 22:09

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View PostStiffWind, on Mar 15 2018 - 20:16, said:

 

My point is they start out with an advantage already, regardless of skill, due to the nature of the way WoT "arranges" this game.  Stick to the point, instead of trying to deflect into a tangent...it will help with your apparent lack of understanding.

 

The advantage they have is not regardless of skill, it is because of skill. What other advantage could there be? MM strives to balance everything else.

 

 



Staz211 #1870 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 22:11

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View PostSoTrue, on Mar 15 2018 - 13:18, said:

 

 

 

You guys are daft.  Let me draw it out for you all 3rd grade style:

 

Watch this replay.

It takes 30 seconds for the tanks to actually get in position and spot the first enemy.

At 13:20 (1:40 in), we are up by 4k damage, and 2 kills.  The game is over right here.  They are not coming back from this.

At 13:00 (2 in), we are up by 6k damage, and 3 kills.

At  12:30 (2.5 in), we are up by 9k damage, and 6 kills.

At 10:40 final kill shot was taken.  So it took 1:40 to 'sweep up' the stragglers.

This is a classic STEAMROLL blowout.  They were greatly underskilled, and we just STEAMROLLED right over them.

I get a couple of battles like this every hour I play.  No matter the tier.  Technically this game was over before it started because random mm put 90%  of the skill on my team.  But this clearly illustrates my overall point.  This battle didn't 'end' at 10:40.  It ended at 13:20.  Had it been on a larger map, or had the enemy team had another skilled player - it might have taken a minute or two longer to 'sweep up'.  You can't judge when a battle is over just by when the last tank was killed.  So when Neato says "there is no difference in battle length between blowout and non-blowout' - he hasn't tracked the correct data.

-

There is no excuse for anyone to have to play this kind of bullcrap matchup.  There was no reason a sbmm couldn't have picked these exact 30 tanks, and then swapped a few players so that both teams were 'close to' even.  For all the cries of 'sbmm will punish good players', the random fan boys don't seen to have a problem with the one good player on the enemy team being saddled with a crap team.   This is the definition of punishing a good player.  Sbmm would eliminate this punishment.

-

-

Two other points.  There is no 'hard line' definition for when a battle is 'over'.  In earlier posts I said 2-3 minutes, 4-5k damage down.  It's a wide band of being down by 'x' damage in 'x' amount of time.  There is no need to have a hard definition.  You can recognize it when you see it.  Secondly, sure every once in a blue moon the less skilled team manages to bounce back from being way way down.  But just because you can bounce back 5 times out of a 100, does not justify the 95 crap battle you have to endure.

 

1) Repeatedly claims that matches end in 2-3 minutes. Calls others idiots or liars for not believing him.

2) Posts a video of a match ending in 5 minutes.

3) Asserts that a match ending in 5 minutes proves his point that matches end in 2-3 minutes. 

 

Somehow, I'm not even surprised.

 

Additionally I will, once again, post a link to this thread so that you can better understand how and why "blowouts" happen, and why the tide can turn so quickly in a battle: http://forum-console...ss-math-of-wot/


Edited by Staz211, Mar 15 2018 - 22:11.


Nixeldon #1871 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 22:29

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View PostStaz211, on Mar 15 2018 - 16:11, said:

Additionally I will, once again, post a link to this thread so that you can better understand how and why "blowouts" happen, and why the tide can turn so quickly in a battle: http://forum-console...ss-math-of-wot/

He knows the why. He just freaks out when colors don't match.



Jer1413 #1872 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 22:47

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View PostNixeldon, on Mar 15 2018 - 21:29, said:

He knows the why. He just freaks out when colors don't match.

 

My wife has that problem...

Nixeldon #1873 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 22:54

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View PostJer1413, on Mar 15 2018 - 16:47, said:

 

My wife has that problem...

 

:D

Staz211 #1874 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 22:59

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View PostNixeldon, on Mar 15 2018 - 16:29, said:

He knows the why. He just freaks out when colors don't match.

 

View PostJer1413, on Mar 15 2018 - 16:47, said:

 

My wife has that problem...

 

I laughed a bit harder at this than I would like to admit :teethhappy:

NeatoMan #1875 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 23:48

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View PostStiffWind, on Mar 15 2018 - 15:18, said:

One is caused by WoT, and the other is not.  Duh.

So we've narrowed crap games down to blowouts caused by the MM (i.e. unbalanced teams). 

 

Using budha's 40-60% win chance range as balanced games, I only get 10% of my games as "crap".    Even if I go by daRock's exaggerated 8-15 margin for blowouts, combined with budha's 40-60% balanced range, I still only get 18% of my games as "crap".  

 

So where are the my other 22% crap games coming from?



Staz211 #1876 Posted Mar 15 2018 - 23:59

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View PostNeatoMan, on Mar 15 2018 - 17:48, said:

So we've narrowed crap games down to blowouts caused by the MM (i.e. unbalanced teams). 

 

Using budha's 40-60% win chance range as balanced games, I only get 10% of my games as "crap".    And if I go by daRock's 8-15 margin for blowouts, combined with budha's 40-60% balanced range, then I still only get 18% of my games as "crap".  

 

So where are the my other 22% crap games coming from?

 

His imagination. 

samael75 #1877 Posted Mar 16 2018 - 00:09

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View PostStaz211, on Mar 15 2018 - 22:59, said:

 

His imagination. 

 

LoLed

StiffWind #1878 Posted Mar 16 2018 - 00:44

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View PostJer1413, on Mar 15 2018 - 22:09, said:

 

The advantage they have is not regardless of skill, it is because of skill. What other advantage could there be? MM strives to balance everything else.

 

 

 

Skill is one, and only one aspect that affects things....and since I said "all other things being equal", I was ruling skill out.  You made an fool of yourself...again....because you can't pay attention.  Not my problem.

 



Jer1413 #1879 Posted Mar 16 2018 - 00:49

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View PostStiffWind, on Mar 15 2018 - 23:44, said:

 

Skill is one, and only one aspect that affects things....and since I said "all other things being equal", I was ruling skill out.  You made an fool of yourself...again....because you can't pay attention.  Not my problem.

 

 

Oky doky.

 



Staz211 #1880 Posted Mar 16 2018 - 00:52

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View PostStiffWind, on Mar 15 2018 - 18:44, said:

 

Skill is one, and only one aspect that affects things....and since I said "all other things being equal", I was ruling skill out.  You made an fool of yourself...again....because you can't pay attention.  Not my problem.

 

 

You want skill based MM, but ruled out skill in order to make your argument. 

 

I couldn't make this up if I tried. 






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