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FIX MM to include player capability

MM MATCHMAKER UNBALANCED FIXED RIGGED

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Slone #41 Posted Feb 03 2018 - 22:23

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View Postcloudwalkr, on Feb 03 2018 - 14:48, said:

Few things real quick, you cow. 

 

Oh, we start off with some name calling. Is that going to make more people take what you have to say more seriously? Or do you think we're still on the third grade playground?

 

View PostSlone, on Feb 03 2018 - 00:01, said:

... instead they spend their time seal clubbing the lesser players and berating them on the forums.

 

For someone who was SO wrong on everything, I sure got that part right, didn't I? It's almost like I'm Pavlov and I just rang my bell, and now you just can't stop yourself from drooling.

 

cloudwalkr, on Feb 03 2018 - 14:48, said:

 

... "If i want a good player on my team, i need to be the good player" ...

 

... ridiculous false reality that you would rather live in. 

 

While we're talking about false realities, this one always gets me, the unicum belief that the only think that an average (or less) player like me needs to do is decide to be good and I'll be on the road to unicum myself. That's laughable. I've read all the guides, I've watched countless videos, I've done trainings, I've made an effort to become a better player. But I'm almost 60 years old, my reactions are slow, my eyesight is fading, my hand eye coordination isn't what it use to be ... I'm at peace with the fact that this is about as good as I'm ever going to get at WoT. But according to the unicum mantra, I'm just deciding to be a bad player. Yeah, I decide to go to work every day instead of playing WoT for those 8 hours a day, and I decide to take care of my elderly father instead of playing WoT, and I decide to spend 10-15 hours a week doing volunteer work in my community instead of playing WoT. And because I'm not a unicum player, my brain doesn't work, I'm an idiot, nothing I say about the game has any value, because I haven't decided to 'get gud'. Now that really is laughable.



Manimal__ #42 Posted Feb 03 2018 - 22:26

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View Posteccoh, on Feb 02 2018 - 17:08, said:

I use XVM.  I don't care if anyone likes it or not.  I like to see the player capability based on skill.  

 

I am really hoping WG gets it's head out of their 'you know what' and starts using something similar.  I grow very tired of having more than a bunch of matches where the team I am on is 36% to win... and I am just as pissed when it is 76% in my favour.  I prefer the nail biter games, down to the last two tanks... This MM is pathetic and IMHO, 'rigged' for super-clans.

 

This is my opinion! I don't really care if you share the same opinion but at very least respect mine!

 

Which xvm do you use? Because the one I use doesn't show % to win.

Pongo #43 Posted Feb 03 2018 - 22:52

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I am just amazed at what the community has found to whine about as the game has been refined and improve.

 

No one makes anyone be bad, it is not ordained, it is chosen.

 

If you are a 46% player and you just looked at the map at start and went were your team has not gone to provide some vision or slow down the enemy a bit you will be a 48% player immediately with no other change. 

 

The only fix that would save bad players from good players is to put bad players together until they show some semblance of will to win and improve. They have never done that because it was thought that the people who do not care if they win would revolt against having their incompetence recognized officially by the game. 

But in effect forcing good players onto bad teams to increase the win rates of players that do not care even agree that they could play better is freaking insane. 



Slone #44 Posted Feb 03 2018 - 23:47

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View Postcloudwalkr, on Feb 03 2018 - 16:58, said:

So because you can't get better, you want a guarantee that someone will be there to carry you if the enemy team happens to have a good player on it.  Gotcha.

 

Where did you get that from anything I said? You're creating a Strawman, putting words in my mouth that I never said and then blasting me on that basis. Name calling, Strawmen, you really aren't very good at having a rational discussion, are you?

 

All I am looking for, and what I believe the OP is looking for is a balanced team that makes it more likely for a competitive game. Sure, I won't contribute as much as the unicum on my team, but I'll do what I can and hopefully the game will be a tight competitive affair. Instead of the 15-0 to 15-5 blowouts that are so common now. Competition isn't a bad thing, you don't have to be so afraid of it.

 

 



riff_ #45 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 00:11

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View PostSlone, on Feb 03 2018 - 16:23, said:

 

 


 

 

You left me out?

So let me be a bit more clean.  Your post, the one I replied to, was ridiculous.  Completely ridiculous.  It was the musings of a child.  Sorry for the harsh words but....


 


Edited by riff_, Feb 04 2018 - 00:15.


ThePigSheFlies #46 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 00:16

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View Posteccoh, on Feb 02 2018 - 20:08, said:

 

 

This is my opinion! I don't really care if you share the same opinion but at very least respect mine!

 

I respect your right to have an opinion, however I do NOT respect your opinion itself in this matter.  What you area advocating is discrimination.

 

The only thing fair, is to give everyone the same random, chance to be on whatever team with whomever.

 

Don't like the way the chips fall?  Then stop playing, get better, platoon, or, again, stop playing.  Good and bad players have the same MM worth of teams.



Slone #47 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 01:10

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View Postriff_, on Feb 03 2018 - 18:11, said:

You left me out?

So let me be a bit more clean.  Your post, the one I replied to, was ridiculous.  Completely ridiculous.  It was the musings of a child.  Sorry for the harsh words but....

 

View PostSlone, on Feb 03 2018 - 00:01, said:

 

... instead they spend their time seal clubbing the lesser players and berating them on the forums.

 

So you have no counter arguments, you can't refute what I say with logical points, you have nothing of substance to say? You're just 'berating me on the forum'? 

 

Thank you for proving my point.

 



cloudwalkr #48 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 01:39

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View PostSlone, on Feb 04 2018 - 01:10, said:

 

 

 

You said yourself that you felt you were as good as you were going to get and were ok with it.  lol  I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth.

 

By telling us all that you feel you're as good as you're going to get but yet still want a sbmm only says that you get upset when you see a team with high level players on it and want one of your own.  You brought up 2yr olds earlier, that's a 2yr old argument.  "you got a good player, i want one too" instead of taking responsibility and improving yourself.  lol Keep thinking that you want something different but in reality you just want a rigged mm system as a crutch. 

 

You want the game to be rigged in your favor.  Stop telling yourself otherwise.  That's what 2yr olds do. 

 

 

edit:  afraid of competition...LOL kid, you have no idea.  What a joke.

 

 

 


Edited by cloudwalkr, Feb 04 2018 - 01:40.


NeatoMan #49 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 02:29

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Random MM is just like poker.   You sometimes get a run of bad hands, you sometimes get good hands, (and sometimes the dealer does a bad job of shuffling the deck).

 

What SBMM does is if you have no clue how to play poker, or you keep throwing away good hands, SBMM will start giving you more face cards.  If you keep winning SBMM will stop giving you face cards.



Markd73 #50 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 03:41

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View Posteccoh, on Feb 03 2018 - 01:08, said:

I use XVM.  I don't care if anyone likes it or not.  I like to see the player capability based on skill.  

 

I am really hoping WG gets it's head out of their 'you know what' and starts using something similar.  I grow very tired of having more than a bunch of matches where the team I am on is 36% to win... and I am just as pissed when it is 76% in my favour.  I prefer the nail biter games, down to the last two tanks... This MM is pathetic and IMHO, 'rigged' for super-clans.

 

This is my opinion! I don't really care if you share the same opinion but at very least respect mine!

 

You want people to respect your opinion, but you don't care if they share your opinion.

 

Do you not see the hypocrisy of your position?



Cirran #51 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 03:52

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View PostThePigSheFlies, on Feb 03 2018 - 15:16, said:

 

I respect your right to have an opinion, however I do NOT respect your opinion itself in this matter.  What you area advocating is discrimination.

 

The only thing fair, is to give everyone the same random, chance to be on whatever team with whomever.

 

Don't like the way the chips fall?  Then stop playing, get better, platoon, or, again, stop playing.  Good and bad players have the same MM worth of teams.

The highlighted part is the problem (your statement is only true if you are skilled). If you don't face ONLY folks just as good (or horribad) as yourself you can not get a fair MM. If skill is equal than you do get a fair MM. You, yourself admit with the current MM, the only real solution to the problem is for horribad players that have plateaued, is to not have fun by feeding better players or quit. In the end if they quit wont that make those who don't want a fair fight quit as well?

 

Cirran



ThePigSheFlies #52 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 04:07

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View PostSlone, on Feb 03 2018 - 17:47, said:

 

 

 

Where did you get that from anything I said? You're creating a Strawman, putting words in my mouth that I never said and then blasting me on that basis. Name calling, Strawmen, you really aren't very good at having a rational discussion, are you?

 

All I am looking for, and what I believe the OP is looking for is a balanced team that makes it more likely for a competitive game. Sure, I won't contribute as much as the unicum on my team, but I'll do what I can and hopefully the game will be a tight competitive affair. Instead of the 15-0 to 15-5 blowouts that are so common now. Competition isn't a bad thing, you don't have to be so afraid of it.

 

 

 

have you ever watched a gold league match?

how about any of the clan league events that were streamed?

 

blowouts don't happen only because of mismatched abilities.  there's a concept called "snowball effect" that average and sub average players are completely unaware of, and completely incapable of attempting to arrest the development of when it starts to happen.

 

again, you and others that are for skill based MM are only for discrimination.  period.  you want "good players" (by some unknown metric of measurement) divied up like secret weapons one for each team etc.  let's pretend that's possible.  it still won't matter for a couple of reasons.  one, not every purple will play their favorite pub stomping tank.  some will be grinding a tank, or credits, and end up bottom tier.  whilst the enemy gets a purple in a 907 for example.  oh, I know, you and others will say, well then don't let that happen, add another variable... blah blah.

 

all this means to say is then that you want good players to have to sit in an MM Queue and have to wait, especially during non peak hours where the player queue is as low as 3-4,000 players.

 

it's ok, we get it.  people want to pretend that they don't like discrimination, just admit that's what you want.  because allocating good players, when half the time MM still gets tank weighting wrong is just a moronic idea, and it won't solve the problem of blowouts anyway.



ThePigSheFlies #53 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 04:14

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View PostCirran, on Feb 03 2018 - 21:52, said:

The highlighted part is the problem (your statement is only true if you are skilled). If you don't face ONLY folks just as good (or horribad) as yourself you can not get a fair MM. If skill is equal than you do get a fair MM. You, yourself admit with the current MM, the only real solution to the problem is for horribad players that have plateaued, is to not have fun by feeding better players or quit. In the end if they quit wont that make those who don't want a fair fight quit as well?

 

Cirran

 

how do you define 'skill' ?

 

why can't anyone else get this magical skill?

 

I'm playing on a 1080p 22" dell monitor.  I'm some 20 years older than the average world of tanks player.  It takes 2-3 excedrin just to get going in the morning after a life time of doing my own stunts, playing contact sports, and beating the crap out of my body.  my twitch reflexes are awful.  I get triggered by the maps, and am just as likely to drive off the bridge on mt pass or pilsen as I am to actually play those matches.  my eye sight is absolutely shot from decades of being on the lake without proper sun protection on my eyes, and driving convertibles - coupled with nearly 30 years of staring at computer displays for work or leisure.

 

I have a number of replays uploaded to wotreplays that have been converted to youtube, one doesn't even have to download them to watch how bad I am - and yet, by the numbers, somehow, I'm substantially above average.

 

what this tells me, is that the player base is so horrifyingly bad, so contemptuous in their attempt to take responsibility for their own passive play that they literally refuse to participate in battle after battle after battle, and petulantly demand that others carry them, while then also likely grumbling that the 'better' players are probably hacking, and are the first to garage chat rage when someone gets tired of carrying the uncarryable.  how is that fair?!  when a good player literally has to play 1 vs 29 every single battle just to have a prayer of winning solo?!

 

the player base, and the company responsible for this game has already chased away a HUGE number of very talented players, make them wait in longer MM Queues by divvying them up, especially at non peak times, and there'll just be more that leave.  less players in the queue, especially decent ones that take the time to answer questions, stream, post replays, and game guides so the few that desire to move from red to teal like myself isn't what this server needs.

 

it needs people to recognize and own up to their own failures - OR - accept that it's random, and that some days things won't go well, and other days it'll seem like one cannot lose.

 

oh, and while I concede that the player queue needs active players.  those with their 0.2 and 0.3 dmg ratio's that have failed their way to tier 10 - that get tired of feeding good players... maybe they need to accept responsibility that they're in over their head and learn how to play?!



Striker_70 #54 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 04:25

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View Postcloudwalkr, on Feb 02 2018 - 19:10, said:

You just want a guarantee that someone will be there to carry you.

 

Maybe you're the one with your head up your you know what.  You ask for respect when you show zero yourself.  Big shocker.

 

Nah, he's obviously wanting more balanced matches on a game-by-game basis.

Striker_70 #55 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 04:32

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View PostNeatoMan, on Feb 03 2018 - 19:29, said:

Random MM is just like poker.   You sometimes get a run of bad hands, you sometimes get good hands, (and sometimes the dealer does a bad job of shuffling the deck).

 

What SBMM does is if you have no clue how to play poker, or you keep throwing away good hands, SBMM will start giving you more face cards.  If you keep winning SBMM will stop giving you face cards.

 

Random MM is more like forming a game of football from a pool of high schoolers all the way to the pros.

 

Some teams are randomly stacked with pros, while some are randomly stacked with high schoolers.  Even though there's nothing fair about it, they face off anyway.  With predictable results.



Vaprak #56 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 04:41

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View PostThePigSheFlies, on Feb 03 2018 - 19:14, said:

 

how do you define 'skill' ?

 

why can't anyone else get this magical skill?

 

 

You don't have have to look any farther than pretty much EVERY other tournament style game that is out there to know that there is a right way and a wrong way to do match making.  The current arrangement is systematically unfair to the casual player.  I am a casual player.  I play because I like tanks.  It gives me something to do between family, work and friends, you know, the things that matter most.

 

That being said, I've recently installed XVM just to see how bad the match making service is, and it's bad.  And I don't mean bad as in bad, I mean bad as in horribly implemented.  Now don't get me wrong, I like how fast it aligns players to a match, and I like the fact that it tries to pair heavies to heavies, etc, but once the match ups are completed, it needs to take one last step, which is to move players back and forth between teams until there is a parity of skill.  Now I know Wargaming goes on and on about how this would slow down the servers, but any idiot with basic programming skill can do a simple skill check and realign a team after the players have been assigned to a match.  It's really that simple and easily done and takes somebody with a pen and paper, 10 seconds or so to sort that out.  A computer could do it in a millisecond.

 

Now I know this doesn't favor "high skill" players as they prefer the random chance to farm tomatoes for damage, but it does even out the field and will keep learning players in the game if they know that every game gives them a chance to win.  It also keeps high skill players from looking at their team, saying "it's a guaranteed loss" and diving into a local body of water to "rapidly move on to a game with better odds".

 

The point is, the current match making service is poisonous to the community, and makes everyone point fingers at everyone else blaming them for bad games, but the reality is, it's Wargaming and their shoddy layout that's the issue.  Not every player has 15000 games under their belt, not every player has played Tier X for months, and therefore not every player is an expert.  But if the game actually had a scorecard (oh wait ... it does ... for players AND vehicles), it could totally shuffle the teams back and forth and align teams to a balanced skill level between the teams.

 



ThePigSheFlies #57 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 04:48

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View PostVaprak, on Feb 03 2018 - 22:41, said:

 

You don't have have to look any farther than pretty much EVERY other tournament style game that is out there to know that there is a right way and a wrong way to do match making.  The current arrangement is systematically unfair to the casual player.  I am a casual player.  I play because I like tanks.  It gives me something to do between family, work and friends, you know, the things that matter most.

 

 

 

stopped reading right there.  if that's the case, then why do you care?

 

even good players know that pubby battles are simply places to farm credits, xp, 3 mark tanks, and/or grind tanks.  some of those incentives are the same things you as a casual player are capable of doing.  the very nature of pubby battles is they aren't competitive affairs, and never have been.

 

they're random battles.  period.  if you want to be more competitive in random battles, get better?

 

I'll go a step further.  IF they allocated players by some magical skill metric, would you casuals also then be happy to give the lion's share of the battle rewards to the folks that actually do all of the heavy lifting?  Because in the vast majority of random pubby battles 3-5 players are typically the only ones that do any real work on both teams...

 

I'm betting that the resounding answer to that is "no" - ya'll not only want good players to carry you in meaningless random pubby battles, but you also want that win bonus percentage to credits and xp.



NeatoMan #58 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 04:51

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View PostStriker_70, on Feb 03 2018 - 22:32, said:

Random MM is more like forming a game of football from a pool of high schoolers all the way to the pros.

 

Some teams are randomly stacked with pros, while some are randomly stacked with high schoolers.  Even though there's nothing fair about it, they face off anyway.  With predictable results.

but there is a big physical difference between high school and pros.  Physical differences are more like tier/tank differences, which have mostly gone away with the new MM.

 

IMO joe couch potato shouldn't be on the same field as any pro players.  It's bad for both of them.


Edited by NeatoMan, Feb 04 2018 - 04:53.


Striker_70 #59 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 04:57

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View PostNeatoMan, on Feb 03 2018 - 21:51, said:

but there is a big physical difference between high school and pros.  Physical differences are more like tier/tank differences, which have mostly gone away with the new MM.

 

IMO joe couch potato shouldn't be on the same field as any pro players.  It's bad for both of them.

 

The analogy works regardless.



riff_ #60 Posted Feb 04 2018 - 05:01

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View PostSlone, on Feb 03 2018 - 19:10, said:

 

 

So you have no counter arguments, you can't refute what I say with logical points, you have nothing of substance to say? You're just 'berating me on the forum'?

 

Thank you for proving my point.

 

 

You have to be trolling.  But I'll play alone.  This is what you posted in regards to skilled based MM.

"It'll never happen because the better players want nothing to do with true competition, and WG caters to them. They don't want to fight each other in a balanced fight, they'd rather kick [edited]on the lesser players."

How in the world can someone refute that with logic points.  When what you posted is nonsense.  You know what better players want, yeah OK.   As for the 'You're just 'berating me on the forum?'  Stop playing the victim card, which is another childish act.







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