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KV-5 - Is It Finally Time To Say Goodbye?

KV-5

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Poll: KV-5 Gun Characteristics (92 members have cast votes)

Do you find the KV-5's current gun values are inadequate in the current iteration of the game?

  1. No - I think the KV-5 is fine as is. Spam that gold! (13 votes [14.13%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.13%

  2. Yes - The KV-5 needs better penetration and accuracy to fulfill it's role as a credit maker. (64 votes [69.57%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 69.57%

  3. Not Sure - I'm undecided. (5 votes [5.43%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.43%

  4. I don't own a KV-5. (9 votes [9.78%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.78%

  5. What the heck is a KV-5? (1 vote [1.09%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.09%

Do you find the KV-5's current armor values are inadequate in the current iteration of the game?

  1. No - I feel the KV-5's armor is adequate for the time being. (36 votes [39.13%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 39.13%

  2. Yes - My poor Radio Operator's family never received his benefits. (43 votes [46.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 46.74%

  3. Not Sure - I'm undecided. (2 votes [2.17%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.17%

  4. I don't own a KV-5. (11 votes [11.96%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.96%

Do you find the KV-5's current mobility values are inadequate in the current iteration of the game?

  1. No - I feel the KV-5 is sufficiently mobile. (48 votes [52.17%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 52.17%

  2. Yes - I can't move my fat hide around the battlefield! (27 votes [29.35%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 29.35%

  3. Not Sure - I'm undecided. (8 votes [8.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.70%

  4. I don't own a KV-5. (9 votes [9.78%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.78%

Is it time to say goodbye to the KV-5?

  1. No - Not the legend! I love it! Never let go, NEVER LET GO! (51 votes [55.43%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 55.43%

  2. Yes - Sell it and buy a Defender already, you penniless casual. (17 votes [18.48%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.48%

  3. Not Sure - I'm undecided. (13 votes [14.13%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.13%

  4. I don't own a KV-5. (10 votes [10.87%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.87%

  5. WILL SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT THE HECK IS A KV-5?! (1 vote [1.09%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.09%

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hoc_RedWolf #1 Posted Feb 05 2018 - 05:48

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The KV-5 has been a longstanding favorite of many older players like myself for some time now, longer than most of the current player base has even known about the game. Fantastic preferential matchmaking, blistering rate of fire, armor that used to be easily handled to block insane amounts of damage, and the ability to wrestle most other tanks into submission were always it's strengths. If it had great penetration back in it's limelight years, it would indeed have been far too overpowered.

 

But in the nearly 6 years since the tank was removed from the store in patch 0.7.5, the game has continued to evolve while the KV-5 remained generally unchanged. The way the game is played today no longer suits the KV-5's strengths, and brutally punishes it's weaknesses. I know this is going to sound like a crybaby session here, but at least hear me out. I'm going to address each of the KV-5's strengths and weaknesses, treatment compared to similar tanks in it's bracket, and hopefully, make some reasonable suggestions to bring it back to par.

 

SPOTTING

... It's a heavy tank, not a scout, nothing to be said here.

 

CONCEALMENT

...... Again, heavy tank... one of the heaviest and largest... no changes needed here either.

 

MOBILITY

The KV-5 is slow to start, and can be a racer downhill, but it never felt, then or now, too fast or too slow. I'd say it's mobility is just right, and should remain unchanged.

 

SURVIVABILITY

THEN - Nigh impenetrable against anything it met that wasn't firing gold, with the exception of the, then, small number of players who knew of it's weaknesses. Even then, a skilled operator could easily avoid most damage through appropriate maneuvering. Anything that made it past, well, that's what the extra HP is for. Does this sound over powered? Well yes, it does, but that's why it's gun was so poor, to balance that out. 

NOW - While the armor was slightly buffed with it's recent high definition remodeling, with the key word being SLIGHTLY, it remained largely unchanged from it's original layout. What's more, with the more recent additions to the game in both premium and standard lines, many tanks now have far greater alpha and penetration that it's older contemporaries, allowing them to easily negate the KV-5's armor, weak spot or not, as most of it's strongest armor doesn't benefit from any kind of sloping. This is to say nothing of the now commonplace habit of 'dabbing 2'. As for the weak spots, well, everyone knows where they are, and in most cases, they are easily exploited, rendering the KV-5's once legendary survivability mediocre at best by today's standards.

 

FIREPOWER

THEN - Effective caliber and great fire rate, tempered by low penetration and poor accuracy, this was effectively a tier six gun on a tier eight tank. This combination kept the KV-5 from being a sniper, forcing it to use it's armor to close the distance and brawl it out. This reduction in damage output, especially against heavy opponents, is what kept the KV-5 from being entirely over powered.

NOW - Well.... it's not a good situation. With it's armor being less effective against the current lineup, it has a much harder time closing the distance to be able to engage effectively, and even when it does, effective fire is rare in the current state. Tanks like the IS-6 have managed to hold their own, with a 122mm gun with 175mm of armor piercing penetration, and a decent high explosive shell for tight spots, the IS-6 can still hit hard, especially if it can take advantage of over matching and it's large caliber explosives. While the KV-5 has good fire rate and damage per minute, it's comparatively low caliber, penetration, and accuracy, put it at a distinct disadvantage, especially against some of the newer tanks it has to contend with, such as the Defender, even at point blank range. It's caliber is insufficient to over match some armor or cause appreciable damage with high explosive, as the IS-6 is capable of. Now indeed, it has premium armor piercing composite rigid ammunition, bumping it's penetration to 219mm at 100 meters, but even that is insufficient for the task, as the limited accuracy makes putting those shots on target at even 100 meters range a matter of luck, and in close combat, you can still expect a 50% or less chance of going through many of these newer vehicles. 

 

MATCHMAKING

THEN - As a preferential tank, the KV-5 was a tier eight that never saw tier tens, which allowed it to make up for it's sub-standard firepower by engaging mostly lower tiered opponents, sixes and sevens. Against tanks of the same tier, the KV-5 still had a struggle on it's hands. 

NOW - With the new template based matchmaking system, the KV-5 has lost it's last saving grace. Sure, it still never sees tier tens, but it also rarely sees sixes and sevens. It's pitted, instead, against fellow tier eights, few of which have preferential matchmaking, and therefore, lack the weaknesses imposed on the KV-5. This has resulted in most KV-5 drivers resorting to a full premium ammunition load-out to be able to compensate, but even that is rarely effective, especially against the newer tanks. More importantly, it defeats the point of having a premium tank in the first place, as you will lose money playing this tank in such a manner. It's armor is often rendered ineffective as the average penetration of tier eight tanks has swelled well over the 180mm of the KV-5's thickest armor, and those who might bounce, are more than accurate enough to easily exploit the weak spots regardless of what the operator does to mitigate it.

 

SUGGESTIONS

My one suggestion is simple and to the point - Bring the KV-5's gun closer to being on par with it's contemporaries. It's not unheard of, after all, the Super Pershing, T-54 First Prototype, and several other tier eight premiums have seen their penetration, damage per minute, and accuracy values increased in recent patches. Even the Panther Mit 8.8cm, having an 88mm gun and being often toted as the WORST tier eight premium, has 203mm of penetration on it's standard shells. I'm not suggesting something radical, like 250mm penetration on it's standard shells, or even 200mm, but the current 167mm of penetration the KV-5 has is entirely insufficient in the game's current setup. I'm suggesting giving it an appropriate penetration for a 107mm gun that is often faced with well in excess of 200mm of armor to contest, say something around 180mm or 190mm, as was done with the T-54 First Prototype's 100mm gun. In addition, I would also suggest increasing it's accuracy, as it's current value prevents it from being able to effectively utilize enemy weak points to any advantage. With just these two changes, and nothing more, the KV-5 would be more capable of holding it's own against the higher tiers it currently encounters, without making it too powerful against the rare numbers of lower tier tanks it now sees. 

 

If you've made it this far, I thank you for your time, patience, and consideration. I hope you will agree that this game would be lesser for the loss to see this legend of years past fade into total obsolescence, another victim of the ever more obvious power creep currently evolving in the game.

 

 



Abbathor #2 Posted Feb 05 2018 - 06:09

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I said goodbye to the KV-5 the day the Japanese heavies hit live server. It was never a really good tank, but it felt useless when the Japanese heavies were first introduced, I would hate to play it again in the current state of the game.

 

 

EDIT: I should add that I agree, it could use a buff. It is in a long list of some of the older prems that need to be buffed to be competitive.


Edited by Abbathor, Feb 05 2018 - 06:37.


Alpine_gremlin #3 Posted Feb 05 2018 - 06:13

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The KV-5 and most of the other original premium tanks are finding it harder and harder to stay relevant these days. Welcome to power creep :(

Haruhi_Suzumiya_ #4 Posted Feb 05 2018 - 06:31

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I'd say keep it. Knowing WG and their blatantly obvious policy of buffing Russian tanks, they will buff it sooner than later.

hoc_RedWolf #5 Posted Feb 05 2018 - 06:43

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View PostAbbathor, on Feb 05 2018 - 00:09, said:

I said goodbye to the KV-5 the day the Japanese heavies hit live server. It was never a really good tank, but it felt useless when the Japanese heavies were first introduced, I would hate to play it again in the current state of the game.

 

 

EDIT: I should add that I agree, it could use a buff. It is in a long list of some of the older prems that need to be buffed to be competitive.

 

I would say it was nicely balanced for the average player, not too strong, not too weak, but in the hands of someone who knew what to do with it, the KV-5 was perhaps the best tank for it's tier, but that's my personal opinion. Thank you for your response and for being constructive to the discussion, have an upvote.

 

Also, I haven't found too much trouble against the Japanese Heavies. Their howitzers are strong and annoying, but they are disadvantaged against the KV-5 in mobility and effective damage per minute. Generally, I just pop their track, let them derp a shot into me for 200 or so as I move to their side, and then rip them to shreds, usually ending them with a fire or ammo rack. The only Japanese Heavy I've had any real trouble with in it is the Type 4, the armor is just too thick and the firepower of the 14cm and 15cm guns doesn't spare the KV-5 much time to make use of it's damage per minute.


Edited by hoc_RedWolf, Feb 05 2018 - 19:54.


Tilith_10IQ #6 Posted Feb 05 2018 - 07:10

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just because you are not good at the kv5 doesnt mean its bad

its ammo is fine because weak spots are a thing, and you dont need gold spam

its armour is fine for pref mm with rear sidescraping 

its speed is great for a heavy of that weight

 

I know what im saying is right because I follow these and I have 3 marks of excellence 



hoc_RedWolf #7 Posted Feb 05 2018 - 08:07

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View PostTilith, on Feb 05 2018 - 01:10, said:

just because you are not good at the kv5 doesnt mean its bad

its ammo is fine because weak spots are a thing, and you dont need gold spam

its armour is fine for pref mm with rear sidescraping 

its speed is great for a heavy of that weight

 

I know what im saying is right because I follow these and I have 3 marks of excellence 

 

On the point of the 'weak spots' I have to disagree, as I pointed out the accuracy of the KV-5's gun makes hitting weak spots very tricky. Even point blank against a WZ-111, aiming downward at the hatches, the AP lacks sufficient penetration to go through. This is why I suggested a minor penetration and accuracy increase and nothing more.

 

On to the armor, I agree wholeheartedly. This is why I didn't suggest any changes to the armor layout.

 

On the mobility, again, I agree. I feel it is sufficient for how the tank is meant to be played. This is why I did not suggest altering it's mobility.

 

When did you get those three marks? When the mark system was implemented? Before the newer premiums were added? Before the matchmaker was changed to where the KV-5 sees practically all Tier 8 and 9 opponents? The mark system has been around long before any of the issues I addressed became issues. Point being that if you didn't just now three mark the KV-5, and having no way to prove that you did so without spamming gold, your argument is irrelevant to the current discussion. Not saying that you DID spam gold, or that you are lying, but there are many in this game that claim to have done things before and were proven to be false. I don't mean to sound like a jerk, please understand,  I just cannot simply accept a random person's word based on circumstance. None the less, I thank you for your participation. Have an upvote.

 

On a side note, your implying that I am bad at the KV-5 is ill-founded. Granted, yes, you have more games played in it, by far, and you do have three marks. However, if you would compare my stats to your own via the service record, we're nearly identical in all regards, aside from number of battles.  


Edited by hoc_RedWolf, Feb 05 2018 - 12:14.


hoc_RedWolf #8 Posted Feb 05 2018 - 12:36

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View PostAlpine_gremlin, on Feb 05 2018 - 00:13, said:

The KV-5 and most of the other original premium tanks are finding it harder and harder to stay relevant these days. Welcome to power creep :(

 

I agree, there are many premiums, both preferential and regular, that are woefully in need of being brought up to the current standard. [Looking at you, Panther 88]

Also, had a look at your YouTube channel. Nice, simple, informative. The only thing I can fault is that your tutorial videos are 4 years old now, and a lot has changed. In fact, most if not all the tutorials on YouTube are woefully outdated. Maybe it's time someone revisited the tutorial aspect of World of Tanks. Maybe you should be that someone. Consider this my vote of confidence.



3nr0n #9 Posted Feb 05 2018 - 15:09

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Back in the "day" the KV-5 was something to be feared but with all the newer tank lines and updated tech trees the KV-5 and R2D2 are becoming just a distant memory. 

 

 



MagillaGuerilla #10 Posted Feb 05 2018 - 15:19

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I'm keeping mine because they will eventually buff the tier 8 premiums.

hoc_RedWolf #11 Posted Feb 05 2018 - 19:19

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View Post3nr0n, on Feb 05 2018 - 09:09, said:

Back in the "day" the KV-5 was something to be feared but with all the newer tank lines and updated tech trees the KV-5 and R2D2 are becoming just a distant memory. 

 

 

 

True, but even with R2D2, I don't feel the armor is entirely bad. Like I said, give it's gun something closer to an acceptable punch, and the combination of its mobility, armor, and slightly buffed firepower should be ample enough to keep it relevant even in the current state of affairs. Thanks for your thoughts, have an upvote.

hoc_RedWolf #12 Posted Feb 05 2018 - 19:31

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View PostNudnick, on Feb 05 2018 - 09:19, said:

I'm keeping mine because they will eventually buff the tier 8 premiums.

 

I'm keeping mine as well, mostly because I'm an old, stubborn son of a bleep, but also because I don't think it needs much to be brought back to a position of strength. Give it just a reasonable pen and accuracy to be able to make it's shots count, and it should be able to hold the line just as easily as the IS-6.

 

I do use the IS-6 often as an example here, because I've been running it since the Defender's introduction WITHOUT any premium ammo. I carry 20 AP to deal with most targets, since tanks like the IS-3, the T-32 and so on have weaker panels that the 122mm can over match. Against those where 175mm pen isn't enough, and over matching is not an option, I'll swap to the 10 HE I carry and either track them for a few shots to burn their repair kit, or keep pumping in splash damage until the fight is more even. And in the case of soft skin targets, well.... 122mm Soviet HE can wreak havoc against a Skorpion or a Lorraine 40t. Since I started doing so, I'm averaging about 2.5 to 3k damage each match with it.

 

With the KV-5's 107mm, it's too small a caliber to be effective for over matching or using HE, and needs to be played more as a zip-gun, using better pen, accuracy, and fire rate to take down it's opponents. It's already got the latter of the three criteria, it just needs a slight tweak for the other two. Here's hoping someone at WG gets the hint.


Edited by hoc_RedWolf, Feb 05 2018 - 19:39.


3nr0n #13 Posted Feb 06 2018 - 02:38

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I saw more KV-5's earlier today than I have seen in a long time this post must be like Beetlejuice say it three times and you will see what I mean.:izmena:

Beorn_of_the_NorthernSea #14 Posted Feb 06 2018 - 02:40

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It's the tank I use to train my KV-2 crew (one of my favorite tanks of all time) and so, I will keep mine and use it whether I use gold rounds or not.  I need to double-dip that crew.

 

~B



TsarCidron #15 Posted Feb 06 2018 - 02:46

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Goodbye to playing it, perhaps.   Goodbye, out of the garage, etc? no.  You never know when the meta will change, or when they do a buff to gold tanks (Lowe anybody?) .  And, even at its worst, it is still a crew trainer

CaptainForrest #16 Posted Feb 07 2018 - 08:56

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just had a 3.6k damage game in my kv-5 4 kills won the match on X2 only shot 1 APCR round in a tier 9 match to kill the foch who was last alive. i had 30 hp left after match,  blocked 3.6k. just kept showing them my angled side backwards and they shot my side and bounced 

GeisterKatze #17 Posted Feb 17 2018 - 00:36

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Personally I think the KV-5 should be brought down to tier VII.

Gothraul #18 Posted Feb 17 2018 - 03:50

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Been sitting on it after wasting around $50 on a bundle some years back, all that anyone can do is either wait for some actual buffs or trade it at a 50% loss. Using the tank only loses credits due to the apcr spam needed to carry and facing tier 9s is horrendous.

AxiomUnbroken #19 Posted Apr 09 2018 - 02:41

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KV5 was my favorite, and could be easily fixed by increasing it's max speed. Make it a rammer a again. It would be niche, but was fun to play when you could blast people on a good hill. Then leave the rest relatively unchanged, slightly bump the pen.

There is nothing wrong with having a niche tank like the KV-5 to be a premium ram spam tank. It changes up the game, and makes it more dynamic. Thus giving players a chance to alternate play styles.

Once the KV5 got nerfed out of it's ability to ram effectively, it lost its luster. Along with a few other tanks in the German line. There should be consideration toward the other parameters you have in the game toward balance, because making a few tanks strong in one or the other mixes up the gameplay. This provides longevity. AKA Vanilla WOW. If you were a grinder like me, you could turn a few rare blue pieces into builds that were stronger than epic sets. Focusing on a few skills, pieces that promoted them, and a tech tree that fed them. Suddenly an obscure line becomes a strong line, one other people don't know or understand. These things make the game interesting. VS.... normalization... which is MMO death.

Ignore the whiners.

sleeper_agent #20 Posted Apr 17 2018 - 14:25

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As one of the firs premiums, it deserves to stay in the mix.

 

i wouldn't pull its plug.







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