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Why skilled based mm will ruin world of tanks

Skill based mm Mm Skill Will rate Rigged Wg

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_Gungrave_ #21 Posted Mar 03 2018 - 12:44

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View PostEmperorJuliusCaesar, on Mar 02 2018 - 12:48, said:

 

Given the number of threads and posts about it, it's def one of the top reasons people quit.  This slot-machine MM we have.  I have XVM as well, and the imbalance is 40% of games minimum.

 

Only pattern I see is how most calling for Skill MM tend to be those who don't pull their weight in the game.

Fractured_Raptor #22 Posted Mar 03 2018 - 12:48

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View Post_Gungrave_, on Mar 03 2018 - 06:44, said:

 

Only pattern I see is how most calling for Skill MM tend to be those who don't pull their weight in the game.

 

Personally I love the idea. All you have to do is sit back and watch as people's stats drop like a brick. A lot of those " good " players wouldn't look so good anymore.

_Gungrave_ #23 Posted Mar 03 2018 - 12:54

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View PostFractured_Raptor, on Mar 03 2018 - 12:48, said:

 

Personally I love the idea. All you have to do is sit back and watch as people's stats drop like a brick. A lot of those " good " players wouldn't look so good anymore.

 

They're good because they've learned tactics, meta, and play their tank to its strengths whenever possible while enjoying a challenge of being the underdog now and then. So many have this misguided belief about those who support the current MM thinking better players stats will decrease under skill MM when really they'll stay largely the same because good players play consistently. I myself prefer random MM because it offers variety and a bit of chaos which is always good for providing me with a challenge that gets me to think on how best to handle a given match/situation.

Edited by _Gungrave_, Mar 03 2018 - 12:55.


EmperorJuliusCaesar #24 Posted Mar 03 2018 - 15:35

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View Post_Gungrave_, on Mar 03 2018 - 03:44, said:

View PostEmperorJuliusCaesar, on Mar 02 2018 - 12:48, said:

 

Given the number of threads and posts about it, it's def one of the top reasons people quit.  This slot-machine MM we have.  I have XVM as well, and the imbalance is 40% of games minimum.

 

Only pattern I see is how most calling for Skill MM tend to be those who don't pull their weight in the game.

 

Funny how I have green recents despite playing 3 diff stock tanks......yet I still favor FAIR battles and NOT gimme wins and loses via the slot-machine MM we have.



QuicksilverJPR #25 Posted Mar 03 2018 - 16:02

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View PostIvan_Drag0, on Mar 02 2018 - 03:42, said:

The only people who is scared of skill based mm are statpadders and sealclubbers.

But if that change come to the game it must come with the removal of 25% RNG, rework prem ammo and rebalance of prem tanks. So the game fully reward skill instead of exploiting the game.

But that wil never happen. The game is a slot machine made just to grow the bank account of some Belarus people.

 

Your first line is utterly false.

 

But the rest of your statements are agreeable to me.



Fractured_Raptor #26 Posted Mar 03 2018 - 16:24

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View Post_Gungrave_, on Mar 03 2018 - 06:54, said:

 

They're good because they've learned tactics, meta, and play their tank to its strengths whenever possible while enjoying a challenge of being the underdog now and then. So many have this misguided belief about those who support the current MM thinking better players stats will decrease under skill MM when really they'll stay largely the same because good players play consistently. I myself prefer random MM because it offers variety and a bit of chaos which is always good for providing me with a challenge that gets me to think on how best to handle a given match/situation.

 

Some will for sure, but not all. I'm not saying they're all bologna. 

ArmorStorm #27 Posted Mar 04 2018 - 01:10

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View PostFractured_Raptor, on Mar 03 2018 - 05:40, said:

 

I'm sorry. Did you really just compare this game to an MMO? Please never do gaming journalism.

 

Dictionary
 
MMO
noun
 
  1. an online video game which can be played by a very large number of people simultaneously.


Anublister #28 Posted Mar 04 2018 - 01:51

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View Postblazer285, on Mar 02 2018 - 09:28, said:

 

Its the tanks that affect the matchmaker a player of same skill still can't compete if they are in different tanks like a russain heavy will always beat a e5 and t57 buddy 

 

no. that's so wrong. Skill = increased view range, faster and more accurate gun handling, increased camo, knowledge of weak points, better map awareness. How is that hard to understand? Wr does not equal better skill, wr reflects a stupid mm that IGNORES giving one side a clear advantage in all the things I just stated. Would you regularly take a bet you knew you were going to lose more than 50% of the time? Then you're welcome at Las Vegas. Now imagine if you could buck the odds?

 

Now imagine any team sport, and that is basically what WoT is, and set up random teams where you stack the odds on one sides favor using the stats I used above. Which team would you bet on? Now put a child of 7 in charge of balancing the teams based on skill using a color range like used in xvm or created by WG, switching one member from one side to the other to try as easily as possible match the NUMBER of colors on each side after the other parameters have been set such as tier and tank type. Now you have what I call a fair and balanced match with the edge going most likely to the higher tier skilled players, (not always, a good scout with excellent view range can counter a superheavy on a field map) but a more balanced team than you get with lopsided non-skill matchmaking.

 

Seriously I've played so many of these stupid matches it's an insult to me to even play in them. I suggest players that have a clue just exit the battle. Let the other team roflstomp as they are most likely to do and save yourself the waste of time and frustration you would have to endure. No one should sign up to play a battle where the teams are not competitive in a random match. If I was on an elementary swim team set to swim against a high school swim team I would laugh and walk away or vice versa because that's not a competiton. That's what we get sometimes in this game. Just walk away. The jokes on you if you stay.

 

If you want to stack teams in clan wars and strongholds that perfectly fine, that's what they are for. Random matches should be a selection of random players that are matched as equally as possible. That is not what this game is doing. The goal of random matchmaking would be to make the wr neutral, or 50%. That's an even match. Use the other skill parameters that establish skill such as damage rate, hit rate, and penetration rate to establish skill. Eliminate the wr bias and frankly stupid parameter that so many players seem to think makes them good.


Edited by Anublister, Mar 04 2018 - 01:52.


Mikosah #29 Posted Mar 04 2018 - 02:16

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Whether the MM is skill-based or not isn't nearly as important as solving other problems, such as the 3/5/7 format and how code 22 interacts with armor (and the true solution is +/-1 MM). Besides that, there's another conflict in that the randoms try to get the best of both worlds between a team-based tactical format and a casual mode where you can do whatever you want. Unfortunately the current format seems to take the worst of both worlds and leaves us in a situation where you're always going to be very dependent on your team (both for gameplay functionality and scoring), yet our ability to communicate with the team is woefully inadequate. And casual players are too busy with their carefree antics to coordinate in any case.

 

But naturally, there are obvious solutions to that problem. The simplest would be a more meritocratic scoring/earning system that favored a productive individual rather rather than a winning team. This way you really could do whatever you want, go full casual, and not worry about your income being reduced because of your team. Or take the opposite approach- focus on team dynamics, give us more methods to communicate and coordinate, perhaps make the teams smaller to make this easier.



da_Rock002 #30 Posted Mar 04 2018 - 02:32

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WoT already has skill based match making.

 

OK, what it already has is a skewed match making with a known problem.  About 40% of the battles have awful matchups of very good players against 15 of the weakest players in the queue.   What that means is the other 60% of the matchups are VARYING DEGREES OF SKILL MATCHED BATTLES.

 

Want to know how SBMM would work?   ....if it'd ruin the game?   .....if it'd fix the game?

Ask yourself how much do the blowouts suck, and how much fun you have in the battles that aren't the WoT/WG signature rolfstomp matchups compared to them.

You've been playing SBMM for at least a year now.    It's what those 60% battles are,  SBMM.      Only problem is their present "SBMM" has a huge and ugly waste output.... the blowouts they spit out in the 40%.


 

SBMM is proven to work, and you experience it in 60% of your battles.


 


 


Edited by da_Rock002, Mar 04 2018 - 17:07.


Anublister #31 Posted Mar 04 2018 - 18:13

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View Postda_Rock002, on Mar 04 2018 - 01:32, said:

WoT already has skill based match making.

 

OK, what it already has is a skewed match making with a known problem.  About 40% of the battles have awful matchups of very good players against 15 of the weakest players in the queue.   What that means is the other 60% of the matchups are VARYING DEGREES OF SKILL MATCHED BATTLES.

 

Want to know how SBMM would work?   ....if it'd ruin the game?   .....if it'd fix the game?

Ask yourself how much do the blowouts suck, and how much fun you have in the battles that aren't the WoT/WG signature rolfstomp matchups compared to them.

You've been playing SBMM for at least a year now.    It's what those 60% battles are,  SBMM.      Only problem is their present "SBMM" has a huge and ugly waste output.... the blowouts they spit out in the 40%.


 

SBMM is proven to work, and you experience it in 60% of your battles.


 


 

 

No. I'm sorry you don't understand.

jpli #32 Posted Mar 04 2018 - 20:11

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View Postblazer285, on Mar 02 2018 - 03:30, said:

So the lowest winrate for a world of tanks game is about 43-44% which means if you click battls and do nothing then that will be your winrate. 

 

Hi,

 

You are utterly wrong my friend. This week-end I met better players :  37% - 39% - 40% - 41%

If they are bots : WG fails and if they are humans : WG fails for another reason.

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 



Gothraul #33 Posted Mar 04 2018 - 22:58

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View Post_Gungrave_, on Mar 03 2018 - 12:54, said:

 

They're good because they've learned tactics, meta, and play their tank to its strengths whenever possible while enjoying a challenge of being the underdog now and then. So many have this misguided belief about those who support the current MM thinking better players stats will decrease under skill MM when really they'll stay largely the same because good players play consistently. I myself prefer random MM because it offers variety and a bit of chaos which is always good for providing me with a challenge that gets me to think on how best to handle a given match/situation.

 

For some yes but not everyone who has those pretty stats are good at the game when it is so easy to pad those stats as we all have seen over the years, second they get carried when their teams think they have already won the game when they see all the pretty colors and decide to play aggressively making for complete landslides one way or the other which is killing the game. Third this game is bleeding too many average players that are the bread and butter for WG when it comes to sales as this game cannot survive on just a couple hundred teal/blue/purples alone.

 

Sooner or later it will hit the fan and those on top will have to take a long look and accept change if they want the game to continue on.



_Gungrave_ #34 Posted Mar 04 2018 - 23:15

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View PostGothraul, on Mar 04 2018 - 22:58, said:

 

For some yes but not everyone who has those pretty stats are good at the game when it is so easy to pad those stats as we all have seen over the years, second they get carried when their teams think they have already won the game when they see all the pretty colors and decide to play aggressively making for complete landslides one way or the other which is killing the game. Third this game is bleeding too many average players that are the bread and butter for WG when it comes to sales as this game cannot survive on just a couple hundred teal/blue/purples alone.

 

Sooner or later it will hit the fan and those on top will have to take a long look and accept change if they want the game to continue on.

 

If you think it hasn't already hit the fan you're definitely blind to the state of the game and tweaking the MM isn't going to bring players back or keep them interested. WG themselves have even said that much of the playerbase is largely end game players due to statistics showing that there isn't nearly that many playing low tiers anymore. I myself used to get excited for new tank lines and nations but these days I'm in more of a whatever mentality because they've ignored longstanding issues of the core gameplay. since day 1.

 

I know quite a few who are on the verge of quitting the game because they're tired of how things keep getting dumbed down or the various screwups WG keeps making.

 

View PostEmperorJuliusCaesar, on Mar 03 2018 - 15:35, said:

 

Funny how I have green recents despite playing 3 diff stock tanks......yet I still favor FAIR battles and NOT gimme wins and loses via the slot-machine MM we have.

 

*yawn*

Edited by _Gungrave_, Mar 04 2018 - 23:19.


FordDingman #35 Posted Mar 05 2018 - 13:19

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Skill based will never be allowed.
That would mean blues vs blues.
And they dont want that. Theres too many fake blues.
  How would they inflate their stats (epeens) if they were vs real good players.


TerrorJoe #36 Posted Mar 05 2018 - 13:45

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View PostEmperorJuliusCaesar, on Mar 03 2018 - 14:35, said:

 

Funny how I have green recents despite playing 3 diff stock tanks......yet I still favor FAIR battles and NOT gimme wins and loses via the slot-machine MM we have.

 

Looks like you are still making the mistake of responding to the same people that would repeat the same  3 defeated arguments in the last thread about Skill based MM.


​Only players so far against it are those who know themselves the effect on their stats of being unable to manipulate the MM and being forced into fair matches. (you'd see a lot of blues and purps drop to green and yellow)

 

Edited by kruppw, Mar 05 2018 - 13:45.


_Gungrave_ #37 Posted Mar 05 2018 - 14:40

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View Postkruppw, on Mar 05 2018 - 13:45, said:

Looks like you are still making the mistake of responding to the same people that would repeat the same  3 defeated arguments in the last thread about Skill based MM.


​Only players so far against it are those who know themselves the effect on their stats of being unable to manipulate the MM and being forced into fair matches. (you'd see a lot of blues and purps drop to green and yellow)

 

Funny because in the past it was always the same 3 people posting with StiffWind having moved on to tin foil theory about illegal mods and SoTrue likely growing tired of discussing it. So that leaves only Emporer who is oblivious himself when it comes to Skill MM.

 

Way I see it there is a lot of naivety among those that support Skill MM because they themselves largely can't play the game that well to begin with and many don't understand skill MM. The fact that you think good players can manipulate the MM is also a fairly ignorant statement because no one can manipulate it. Literally the only time that players managed to play the MM is back during the Rampage mode where people rigged matches to get the T22 leading to the death of that game mode.



da_Rock002 #38 Posted Mar 05 2018 - 14:43

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View Postkruppw, on Mar 05 2018 - 07:45, said:

 

Looks like you are still making the mistake of responding to the same people that would repeat the same  3 defeated arguments in the last thread about Skill based MM.


​Only players so far against it are those who know themselves the effect on their stats of being unable to manipulate the MM and being forced into fair matches. (you'd see a lot of blues and purps drop to green and yellow)

 

 

 

Actually, ALL OF US get skill matchups 60% of the time.    They're the fun battles that don't drop out of MM with ridiculously skewed teams.   Yeah, when 40% of WoT/WG's MM created matchups filter out the in-matched battles what we're left with are matchups with two teams THAT ARE SKILL MATCHED.     They range from roughly matched to almost perfectly matched.


 

You've been playing SBMM matchups probably for your entire career.   They are 60% of the matches for over a year now.  


 

As for "who is for or against SBMM" .....   one thing is certain.   Most of the fanatics that say the MM is perfect the way it is are the ones who benefit from those rolfstomps the MM pukes out 40% of the time, they're the blues whose presence in them make them what they are.  


 

Get rid of the 40% and we'd have 100% of our battles like the present 60% we see.    Do they have blowouts?   Yeah, but they're not pre-ordained, and they occur RANDOMLY.   The present 40% blowouts benefit the blues about 95% of the time and screw the newbs about 60% of the time.    



TerrorJoe #39 Posted Mar 05 2018 - 15:21

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View Post_Gungrave_, on Mar 05 2018 - 13:40, said:

 

Funny because in the past it was always the same 3 people posting with StiffWind having moved on to tin foil theory about illegal mods and SoTrue likely growing tired of discussing it. So that leaves only Emporer who is oblivious himself when it comes to Skill MM.

 

Way I see it there is a lot of naivety among those that support Skill MM because they themselves largely can't play the game that well to begin with and many don't understand skill MM. The fact that you think good players can manipulate the MM is also a fairly ignorant statement because no one can manipulate it. Literally the only time that players managed to play the MM is back during the Rampage mode where people rigged matches to get the T22 leading to the death of that game mode.

 

​Interesting how the last major thread had pages of math that clearly proved you wrong over and over again. All I see from you is a lot of claims and zero supporting evidence. This is further reiterated by the plethora of logical fallacies.

So far we have only seen the same arguments spammed, proof by assertion and ad nauseam. Each one gets shot down/earlier proof where it was shot down is cited.
​"MM cannot be manipulated"
​"You don't know what SBMM is"
" SBMM would increase que times"
​"SBMM would lower the stats of good players"
​"Current MM is random"

Did I miss any?


Source: http://forum.worldof...n-matchmaking/​

Edited by kruppw, Mar 05 2018 - 15:26.


spud_tuber #40 Posted Mar 05 2018 - 15:58

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View Postkruppw, on Mar 05 2018 - 08:21, said:

 

​Interesting how the last major thread had pages of math that clearly proved you wrong over and over again. All I see from you is a lot of claims and zero supporting evidence. This is further reiterated by the plethora of logical fallacies.

So far we have only seen the same arguments spammed, proof by assertion and ad nauseam. Each one gets shot down/earlier proof where it was shot down is cited.
​"MM cannot be manipulated"
​"You don't know what SBMM is"
" SBMM would increase que times"
​"SBMM would lower the stats of good players"
​"Current MM is random"

Did I miss any?


Source: http://forum.worldof...n-matchmaking/​

Are you implying that current MM isn't skill random?  If so, I've seen plenty of evidence to suggest it is(baring of course the effects of the recording player's and any toon mates s/he has skills).  NeatoMan has the largest data set I've seen recently, but even SoTrue's data strongly suggests skill random. Both of which I'm pretty sure are in that thread you linked. Mesnwhile, no one has ever shown a statistically relevant sample size of data that suggests the game is rigged.

 

Further, are you implying that skill balanced MM would not negatively effect the win rate at least of any player better than average?  HiBan's simulation available in the thread you linked shows that skill balanced MM would have the equivalent effect on a SU of swapping one average player for one super bad player on his team and one average player for one very good/borderline unicum player on the opposing team in every single battle that super unicum plays.  Don't you think that will drag his/her WR down?






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