78 replies to this topic

[FrozenKemp]

da_Rock002, on Mar 11 2018 - 05:41, said:

 

 

What would you call a 'normal crew'?    Would that be what WoT puts in new tanks, that has 50% training and no skills?

 

Even if you pay to train a brand new WoT supplied crew to 100% in the tank, it comes out of the gate with no skills....  none.    Compare it to a female crew that is 100% on the tank, and is at a 2-skill level.    The WoT supplied crew already cost you to train it to the tank.   The female crew has cost you nothing so far.   But let's ignore that and look at how much it's going to cost to train each crew to it's next 'level'.     It's going to cost the same amount to train the female crew to 100% in it's 3rd skill (the next level) and to train the WoT supplied crew to it's 1st level.   Now, getting to level 2 for one and level 4 for the other will also cost the same.   And to level 3 for one and level 5 for the other, the same.    OK....   now your 'normal crew' has cost you the same amount to reach level 3 as the females cost you to get them to level 5.

 

The females will be at level 5 in the time (and cost) it will take to get the 'normal crew' to level 3.   And the crews have never been 'level'.    BTW, the female crew probably will improve even faster than the WoT crew for a simple reason.   Any crew that starts it's first battle at 100% in the tank and with 2 full skills should perform better than a crew with no skills.   The better crew is going to grind more XP for you from day one.   And that absolutely builds XP faster, that is in fewer battles.

 

The female crew will be ahead but your math is REALLY off here.  It does not take an equal amount of xp to reach the 3rd skill as the 1st.  It takes four times as much.

 

From the wiki:

 

• Major Qualification from 0% to 100% requires a total of 105,030 XP.
• 1st Skill or Perk from 0% to 100% requires a total of 210,060 XP.
• 2nd Skill or Perk from 0% to 100% requires a total of 420,120 XP.
• 3rd Skill or Perk from 0% to 100% requires a total of 840,240 XP.

[oldewolfe]

But the Girls treat the 3rd Skill AS a First..     So it starts at 1, not 3....

[No_Quarter25]

SAknazer, on Mar 10 2018 - 23:22, said:

 

SoS is a "zero skill" for the girls.  This means that they have a free skill.  Starting with the first skill it's ~210k xp and then each skill doubles.  Thus skills for girls are automatically cheaper by whatever that would be.  Plus girls start with their first skill which is 210k xp.  Thus for them to get a third skill it only costs them 420k xp while for guys it would cost ~1.47m xp.

 

This^

SOS is a free skill that is not counted as completed. Thus you get another free skill and are only working on the 2nd skill. Your male counterpart will be counted as working on his 3rd skill. Skills are measured exponentially and each one is harder to learn. The "free" SOS skill is not counted. The male will always lag behind.

Edited by No_Quarter25, Mar 11 2018 - 15:46.

[FrozenKemp]

oldewolfe, on Mar 11 2018 - 09:01, said:

But the Girls treat the 3rd Skill AS a First..     So it starts at 1, not 3....

 

That IS a very good point that I overlooked.  Thanks for pointing that out.

 

I believe that actually they would treat their third skill as the second in terms of cost.  Only Brothers in Arms counts as a protected and unremovable skill.  

 

Still, they may have enough of a head start that what da Rock wrote was correct.  I'd have to write some numbers down to figure it out.

[dunniteowl]

_Red_Saaryn_, on Mar 10 2018 - 20:37, said:

That's not true, that they train fast, I have a full sisters crew in my tank and a full male crew and in the sister Im still far behind my 4 skill male Crew

 

Fractured_Raptor, on Mar 10 2018 - 20:39, said:

 

I lay you odds that the male crew has been worked on far longer than the female crew. That's the only way they can be ahead.

 

_Red_Saaryn_, on Mar 10 2018 - 21:01, said:

No, I play both tanks equally, since they are my money maker and my first tier 8-9. Lowe for males and Emil 1/2 for females (keep in mind that each emil has its own female crew )

 

No, you don't. And yes, he's right.  Your profile page shows:

Lowe:  512 Battles

Emil I:  330 Battles

Emil II: 273 Battles

 

Even if you add them together, it's not the same amount.  Also, your Lowe is a Premium tank and the other two are not.  Even so, your Emil I isn't doing as much average damage as the Lowe, while the Emil II is doing more damage than either, although you have less battles in it.  Lastly, your win rates in them are, in technical terms, abominable.  You don't get nearly the XP losing as you do winning in general unless you manage to consistently be in the top 3 damage earners while you watch your team fold around you.

 

All things being Equal, that is to say, if you won the same amount and damaged the same amount in each unit, your Female Crew would train up as fast or faster than your Male Crew.  Again, for the sake of argument, let's just call them a Zero Skill BIA Crew.  At that point, all things being equal elsewhere, they would train exactly the same.

 

That's a fact.

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF

[FrozenKemp]

Ok so math:

 

Regular old crew member - assume starting at 100% base skill.

First skill will need 210,060

Second skill will need 420,120

Third skill will need 840,240

 

Total XP needed to complete third skill: 1,470,270

 

Female crew member starts with BiA, which doesn't get included in XP calculations, and enough XP for their next skill.  All their skills cost "one level" cheaper.

 

Third skill will cost as a regular second: 420,120

Fourth will need as a regular third: 840,240

Fifth will need as a regular fourth: 1,680,480

 

Total to complete fifth: 2,940,840

 

So if a female crew member earns 1,470,270 XP, that's enough to complete the 3rd and 4th skills and start working on the 5th, at the time that the male crew member has just finished their third.

 

It's not quite the same thing as COMPLETING their 5th skill but it is a huge step ahead.  

 

I hope I have that math right! 

Edited by FrozenKemp, Mar 11 2018 - 17:19.

[oldewolfe]

Here are the 2 Commanders from my Tiger I, yes I had 2 Crews in that Tank at the same Time....     I was Prepping for the Tiger II as well as the E75 at the same Time....       I had the Lowe from Thanksgiving and Added the VK 45.03 after Xmas so it made it real Simple after that.....

 

https://imgur.com/a/mnt0c

 

The Guys actually Started going up the Medium Line and reached the 30.02D before getting Moved to the Pz IV H, and eventually the Tiger, and they're 3 Yrs Olde...     The Girls started when I got a Complete Set over Xmas with the whole Holiday thing and I believe the Completion of the SPG Mission.....        Looking at the XP both Commanders have Accrued and the fact they are Nearly Identical Skill Level wise, and the Battle Count involved, the Girls Way outpace the Guys....     Now, I don't have a German Berlin Crew Equivalent like the Tiger 131, but this is the Commander from my IS2B who runs my T-10 compared to the other 2 Commanders....

 

https://imgur.com/a/avf5G

 

And he is Well into his 5th Skill, not as Olde as the Tiger Crew by a Year or more as well....     They're all 3 Nearly the Same as far as Skills go, even my AX Commander is Close to the IS2B Commander, and he should be, he's from my Bromwell which I got at the same time as the IS2B, but the Line just Gound Out faster and easier than the IS Line did....       Add to that the Female Commander in my Kranvagn and she has Half the XP (almost Exactly even) and 1/3 the Battles as the Male Commander of the Tiger I for a 3% Difference in their 4th Skill, which are also nearly Identicle, at 74% for him and 77% for her....

 

So there is definately a Big Difference in how they Train Up....     Thus why the Girls are Earned, the Berlin Crews can be Bought if you get the Tank (and their Equivalent), and Regular Crews take Forever without Reserves.....

[Maegenwulf]

3-4 days each month they do. 

[da_Rock002]

I_QQ_4_U, on Mar 11 2018 - 05:52, said:

 

They don't level any faster than any other crew, it's a simple fact. They just start off with 2 skills, thought I made that pretty clear. Remove those two skills ans they are exactly the same.

 

 

When you buy a new tank, WoT offers you 3 options to level up the crew to 80%, 90% and 100%.    They say, "Train to level: 80%",  "Train to level: 90%" and "Train to level: 100%"

 

It's a simple fact, the females reach "level:100%" sooner than the crew WoT provides you.   But that's just to begin with and is before grinding skills starts.  The females are already ahead.

 

When the WoT supplied crew is training up to it's first skill, it takes a set amount of XP, to the second it takes 2X that amount. 

When that regular crew is training up to it's 3rd skill, it takes 7X to reach "skill level 3".    (1X to reach skill level one, 2X to reach skill level two, and 4X to reach skill level three)

 

When the female crew is training up to it's 3rd skill, it takes 1X to do so.  

 

Simple fact is that 1X takes less time than 4X.  

The females take one or two nanoseconds to reach skill level 2.   It takes them 1X to reach skill level 3.    It takes regular crews 6 more XP to reach level 3.

 

The above is offered to show newbies how and why female crews are VERY worthwhile to them.   BIA "zero-cost" crews are also worthwhile, although not as much.

 

A question:    Of what importance to a newbie is knowing that a normal crew can earn skill level 1 just as fast as a female crews earns level 3?  That's your point, right?   You are offering that nugget to help them, right?

 

 

[DrWho_]

FrozenKemp, on Mar 11 2018 - 17:16, said:

Ok so math:

 

Regular old crew member - assume starting at 100% base skill.

First skill will need 210,060

Second skill will need 420,120

Third skill will need 840,240

 

Total XP needed to complete third skill: 1,470,270

 

Female crew member starts with BiA, which doesn't get included in XP calculations, and enough XP for their next skill.  All their skills cost "one level" cheaper.

 

Third skill will cost as a regular second: 420,120

Fourth will need as a regular third: 840,240

Fifth will need as a regular fourth: 1,680,480

 

Total to complete fifth: 2,940,840

 

So if a female crew member earns 1,470,270 XP, that's enough to complete the 3rd and 4th skills and start working on the 5th, at the time that the male crew member has just finished their third.

 

It's not quite the same thing as COMPLETING their 5th skill but it is a huge step ahead.  

 

I hope I have that math right! 

 

Sounds about right. In addition a crew with BiA from day 1 would probably earn more XP as it adds 5% efficiency so it would get a head start even there in the hands of reasonably skilled player

I value my 0 zero skill BiA crew members very highly

[I_QQ_4_U]

da_Rock002, on Mar 11 2018 - 18:19, said:

 

 

When you buy a new tank, WoT offers you 3 options to level up the crew to 80%, 90% and 100%.    They say, "Train to level: 80%",  "Train to level: 90%" and "Train to level: 100%"

 

It's a simple fact, the females reach "level:100%" sooner than the crew WoT provides you.   But that's just to begin with and is before grinding skills starts.  The females are already ahead.

 

When the WoT supplied crew is training up to it's first skill, it takes a set amount of XP, to the second it takes 2X that amount. 

When that regular crew is training up to it's 3rd skill, it takes 7X to reach "skill level 3".    (1X to reach skill level one, 2X to reach skill level two, and 4X to reach skill level three)

 

When the female crew is training up to it's 3rd skill, it takes 1X to do so.  

 

Simple fact is that 1X takes less time than 4X.  

The females take one or two nanoseconds to reach skill level 2.   It takes them 1X to reach skill level 3.    It takes regular crews 6 more XP to reach level 3.

 

The above is offered to show newbies how and why female crews are VERY worthwhile to them.   BIA "zero-cost" crews are also worthwhile, although not as much.

 

A question:    Of what importance to a newbie is knowing that a normal crew can earn skill level 1 just as fast as a female crews earns level 3?  That's your point, right?   You are offering that nugget to help them, right?

 

 

 

This is obviously over your head. I really don't know how to make it any simpler for you but lets try. Outside the Free 0 skill BIA and the free XP for the first skill female crews do NOT level any faster than any other crew. No matter what kind of crew you have in a tank you'll always receive the same amount of crew XP, female crews DO NOT level any faster. Telling any newbies otherwise is misleading, hopefully they'll be smart enough to realize starting at 100%, having a 0 skill and the XP for their 'first' skill is better than starting at 80%. Now if they had 'Premium' crews that gained more XP per battle that would be a different story.

[Anublister]

Well if they bunk together their periods will synchronize.

[DrWho_]

I_QQ_4_U, on Mar 11 2018 - 19:22, said:

 

This is obviously over your head. I really don't know how to make it any simpler for you but lets try. Outside the Free 0 skill BIA and the free XP for the first skill female crews do NOT level any faster than any other crew. No matter what kind of crew you have in a tank you'll always receive the same amount of crew XP, female crews DO NOT level any faster. Telling any newbies otherwise is misleading, hopefully they'll be smart enough to realize starting at 100%, having a 0 skill and the XP for their 'first' skill is better than starting at 80%. Now if they had 'Premium' crews that gained more XP per battle that would be a different story.

 

You are technically correct, although it could be argued that a BiA crew will gather more XP than a regular 100% crew because they raise the efficiency of the crew, but you're missing the main point

These 0+1 skill female crews will level faster faster than regular crews, they will always get to the next level faster than regular crews because their BiA doesn't count. Who cares about the exact number of XP a crew gains if one crew levels faster than others

 

That's the important bit

[I_QQ_4_U]

DrWho_, on Mar 11 2018 - 21:40, said:

 

You are technically correct, although it could be argued that a BiA crew will gather more XP than a regular 100% crew because they raise the efficiency of the crew, but you're missing the main point

These 0+1 skill female crews will level faster faster than regular crews, they will always get to the next level faster than regular crews because their BiA doesn't count. Who cares about the exact number of XP a crew gains if one crew levels faster than others

 

That's the important bit

 

They DO NOT level faster, they START with an advantage. There is no difference in them than any other crew as far as XP gains except they get a free BIA THAT CANNOT BE RETRAINED and enough XP for their FIRST retrainable skill. All things being equal they will never gain more XP per battle than any other crew. A 0 skill crew with 5 skills is really just a 4 skill crew XPwise because you do not get the XP from the free BIA to use as you wish. Yes, you will have a better trained crew in a shorter period of time BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. There are people who think that female crew gain XP faster and that is NOT the case. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to understand.

[DrWho_]

I_QQ_4_U, on Mar 11 2018 - 22:34, said:

 

They DO NOT level faster, they START with an advantage. There is no difference in them than any other crew as far as XP gains except they get a free BIA THAT CANNOT BE RETRAINED and enough XP for their FIRST retrainable skill. All things being equal they will never gain more XP per battle than any other crew. A 0 skill crew with 5 skills is really just a 4 skill crew XPwise because you do not get the XP from the free BIA to use as you wish. Yes, you will have a better trained crew in a shorter period of time BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. There are people who think that female crew gain XP faster and that is NOT the case. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to understand.

 

 

I give up, you're arguing for the sake of arguing now

 

[da_Rock002]

DrWho_, on Mar 11 2018 - 15:40, said:

 

You are technically correct, although it could be argued that a BiA crew will gather more XP than a regular 100% crew because they raise the efficiency of the crew, but you're missing the main point

These 0+1 skill female crews will level faster faster than regular crews, they will always get to the next level faster than regular crews because their BiA doesn't count. Who cares about the exact number of XP a crew gains if one crew levels faster than others

 

That's the important bit

 

yup

 

And hopefully newbies won't be confused by all the noise.

 

 

 

I did a crew shuffle awhile back when I finally got enough females to makeup one crew.   A male crew had been started a week or so before.  Both crews went into decent T6 mediums with decent Premiums paired to them.    Both tree tanks turned out to be favorites and have gotten about the same 'training time' along with the matching premium's time.    The females are 50+ into their 4th skill.   The males are 98-99% into their 2nd skill.      And that's not the whole deal.   The females' tank has earned more, damaged more and XP'd more since day one.     The only thing that might invalidate the comparison is the females are in the T-34-85 and T-34-85M, and some would say they've benefitted from RU bias.

 

They're about to be promoted to a higher tier.   But that won't happen until another female crew is available.   Or at least a BIA zero-cost one.   It's gotten to be not worth it to grind a regular crew.   I've only got a few decent crew training setups and it's really nice to see a zero-cost crew rolling out with their first skill @ 90+ percentage within days.   That doesn't happen with regular crews.

Edited by da_Rock002, Mar 11 2018 - 23:14.

[Aknazer]

I_QQ_4_U, on Mar 11 2018 - 19:22, said:

 

This is obviously over your head. I really don't know how to make it any simpler for you but lets try. Outside the Free 0 skill BIA and the free XP for the first skill female crews do NOT level any faster than any other crew. No matter what kind of crew you have in a tank you'll always receive the same amount of crew XP, female crews DO NOT level any faster. Telling any newbies otherwise is misleading, hopefully they'll be smart enough to realize starting at 100%, having a 0 skill and the XP for their 'first' skill is better than starting at 80%. Now if they had 'Premium' crews that gained more XP per battle that would be a different story.

 

You still don't understand it.  For a non-BIA crew to hit their third skill it takes 840k XP just to go from 0->100% in the skill, and it takes 1.47m total XP.  For the females to go from 0->100% in their third skill it only takes 420k XP and only 420k total XP (because of the zero skill + free first skill).  Thus when comparing how much XP is needed to get to a specific skill the girls will ALWAYS level at 2x the speed as a male crew.  So if you have a male crew working on their fourth skill they will need 1.68m xp to complete it but girls working on their fourth skill will only need 840k xp.

 

I_QQ_4_U, on Mar 11 2018 - 22:34, said:

 

They DO NOT level faster, they START with an advantage. There is no difference in them than any other crew as far as XP gains except they get a free BIA THAT CANNOT BE RETRAINED and enough XP for their FIRST retrainable skill. All things being equal they will never gain more XP per battle than any other crew. A 0 skill crew with 5 skills is really just a 4 skill crew XPwise because you do not get the XP from the free BIA to use as you wish. Yes, you will have a better trained crew in a shorter period of time BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. There are people who think that female crew gain XP faster and that is NOT the case. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to understand.

 

You're attempting to argue a difference without a distinction...but yet are still wrong.  Guys going from 0->10% in their fourth skill need ~10k xp but girls going from 0->10% only need ~5k xp.  In other words the girls will LEVEL FASTER even though they get the same amount of XP.  Why?  Because their XP required to hit a specific level is half of what a male crew would need to hit that same level.  And with the exponential growth of XP requirements that adds up pretty quickly.  Which is why a fresh girl crew will generally beat a veteran male crew to a specific 100% skill.

[spud_tuber]

da_Rock002, on Mar 11 2018 - 11:19, said:

*snip*

 

When the female crew is training up to it's 3rd skill, it takes 1X to do so.  

 

*snip*

 

This is incorrect.  A zeroXP BIA crew, whether male or female, requires the same amount of XP to train skill 3 from 0 to 100% as a normal crew takes to go from 0 to 100% in skill 2.  

 

While the majority of female crews have had the option to immediately train a second skill, that's because they come with enough unassigned crew XP for what would be a first skill on a regular crew, but of course is actually their second skill after the zero XP BIA.

[da_Rock002]

spud_tuber, on Mar 11 2018 - 18:27, said:

This is incorrect.  A zeroXP BIA crew, whether male or female, requires the same amount of XP to train skill 3 from 0 to 100% as a normal crew takes to go from 0 to 100% in skill 2.

 

While the majority of female crews have had the option to immediately train a second skill, that's because they come with enough unassigned crew XP for what would be a first skill on a regular crew, but of course is actually their second skill after the zero XP BIA.

Let's let WoT say it:

 

 

 "Zero-Skill" means that in this case, BIA isn't considered "earned" in our usual sense. You can't re-train this Perk to a different Perk or Skill, but the XP required to train future skills doesn't increase, unlike "normal" Skills or Perks. This makes it effectively a "Free" Skill!

 

 

Edited by da_Rock002, Mar 12 2018 - 01:23.

[spud_tuber]

da_Rock002, on Mar 11 2018 - 18:10, said:

Let's let WoT say it:

 

 

 "Zero-Skill" means that in this case, BIA isn't considered "earned" in our usual sense. You can't re-train this Perk to a different Perk or Skill, but the XP required to train future skills doesn't increase, unlike "normal" Skills or Perks. This makes it effectively a "Free" Skill!

 

 

Which, as I said, only appies to the BIA skill, not the extra skill that most of the female crew come with enough crew XP to immediately train to 100%. 

 

What I quoted that you said earlier would only be true if both the BIA and the other skill were 0 crew XP.  Or, put another way, you're treating both the BIA and the next skill as if they require no crew XP.