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FIX MATCHMAKER

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Kendosan #21 Posted Apr 04 2018 - 03:06

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View PostThe_Iron_Bullet, on Apr 03 2018 - 21:20, said:

If MM is so broken, then come up with a solution for it and share it with us instead of saying you lose battles 15-X?

 

    How about matching teams with equally skilled players and tanks for a start.

Pipinghot #22 Posted Apr 04 2018 - 04:42

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View PostSgtRock52, on Apr 03 2018 - 01:54, said:

View PostThunder_Storm_713, on Apr 02 2018 - 23:17, said:

These people talk as if steamrolls happen all the time. No matter what they do with the matchmaker, steamrolls will always happen. ALWAYS. You'll just have to get over it.
Based on my statistics (which I can document) over the last 14 months about 24% of the games are wipeouts (win or loss by 15-5 or less) if you break it down by months some months have been as high as 33%, if you break it down by days, the worst is 52% out of 33 battles...so something is not right.

Now go play any other single-death-per-battle game and compare it to WoT, you will see that this steamrolls/roflstomps/wipeouts are equally common in all SDPB games. The MM is not wrong, it's not broken, you're simply failing to understand how much of an affect single-death has on a game compared to respawn games.



Pipinghot #23 Posted Apr 04 2018 - 04:43

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View PostKendosan, on Apr 03 2018 - 21:06, said:

How about matching teams with equally skilled players and tanks for a start.

Because that won't accomplish what you think it will.



docroberts #24 Posted Apr 04 2018 - 16:01

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I fixed my MM , I reached over , pushed button and click , no power and off . No more steam rolls and the whole team turtled up behind the same rock . WG doesn't care . I used to play tier 8 most of the time , but as it sits now it's beyond stupid . And you cant make anything since your load out is mostly preem now . And the repair . Yes the game is all pretty now , but all that means is I get to see stupidity in HD quality . 

_Gungrave_ #25 Posted Apr 04 2018 - 17:18

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View PostKendosan, on Apr 04 2018 - 03:06, said:

 

    How about matching teams with equally skilled players and tanks for a start.

 

Too many problems with skill MM and rather not go down that rabbit hole...we have enough threads on that subject.

JohnnyO7 #26 Posted Apr 04 2018 - 18:24

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I actually saw an improvement in MM since v1.0, I guess the redesigned maps are working better? Also, after using PRs for the longest time, I recently stopped and I've seen better matches since then. 

Kendosan #27 Posted Apr 04 2018 - 18:34

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View PostPipinghot, on Apr 04 2018 - 03:43, said:

Because that won't accomplish what you think it will.

 

Really?  It can't get much worse.  My guess is they have never tried and don't really care.

Not sure if they changed something with 1.0, or I'm just in a bad streak, but seems like every other battle is lopsided now.



Pipinghot #28 Posted Apr 04 2018 - 20:39

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View PostKendosan, on Apr 04 2018 - 12:34, said:

Really?  It can't get much worse.  My guess is they have never tried and don't really care.

Not sure if they changed something with 1.0, or I'm just in a bad streak, but seems like every other battle is lopsided now.

Saying "It can't get much worse" misses the point, because it also can't get "better".

 

Skill based matchmaking would not reduce blowouts because imbalance teams are not the root cause of blowouts. The root cause of blowouts is the simple fact that this is a single-death-per-battle game, which causes it to be significantly different from the world full of game that have respawn battles. You may not have a lot of experience in single-death games that you can use for comparison, but I assure you that if you go play 13,500 games of any single-death game you'll see the exact same pattern. Single-death games have a lot more blowouts than respawn games, that's just simple reality.

 

We also have evidence inside this game - we have thousands of battles in Clan Wars and thousands upon thousands of Skirmish battles, and the evidence there shows us that even with closely matched teams there are still a lot more blowouts that you would think. Even when you consider that Clan Wars and Skirmish teams train together, they have team commanders and voice communications during battles, they play more methodically and strategically than Random battles, and they still have tons of blowout battles. Being evenly matched at the start of the battle does not mean that the teams will have a close battle in the end. If it takes 14 minutes and 45 seconds to win 15-0 that's just as much of a blowout as a battle that ends 15-0 in 3 minutes. Having even odds of winning does not affect how you win, only how often.

 

So if you want credit for being right that "it can't get any worse" it's also time for you to understand that it can't get any better.

 

If you want to get suuuuper technical, using skill based matchmaking would slightly reduce blowouts, but only by such a tiny amount that you could never tell the difference. The only way to tell the difference between a randomized MM for WoT and a skill based MM for WoT would be by doing data analysis to look at the (tiny) change in blowout numbers. As a player, jumping into battles and experiencing the game as you play, you would never be able to tell the difference between Random MM and SBMM, the fact that this is a single-death game causes so many blowout that they would both feel identical as a player.



Kendosan #29 Posted Apr 04 2018 - 23:24

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View PostPipinghot, on Apr 04 2018 - 19:39, said:

Saying "It can't get much worse" misses the point, because it also can't get "better".

 

Skill based matchmaking would not reduce blowouts because imbalance teams are not the root cause of blowouts. The root cause of blowouts is the simple fact that this is a single-death-per-battle game, which causes it to be significantly different from the world full of game that have respawn battles. You may not have a lot of experience in single-death games that you can use for comparison, but I assure you that if you go play 13,500 games of any single-death game you'll see the exact same pattern. Single-death games have a lot more blowouts than respawn games, that's just simple reality.

 

We also have evidence inside this game - we have thousands of battles in Clan Wars and thousands upon thousands of Skirmish battles, and the evidence there shows us that even with closely matched teams there are still a lot more blowouts that you would think. Even when you consider that Clan Wars and Skirmish teams train together, they have team commanders and voice communications during battles, they play more methodically and strategically than Random battles, and they still have tons of blowout battles. Being evenly matched at the start of the battle does not mean that the teams will have a close battle in the end. If it takes 14 minutes and 45 seconds to win 15-0 that's just as much of a blowout as a battle that ends 15-0 in 3 minutes. Having even odds of winning does not affect how you win, only how often.

 

So if you want credit for being right that "it can't get any worse" it's also time for you to understand that it can't get any better.

 

If you want to get suuuuper technical, using skill based matchmaking would slightly reduce blowouts, but only by such a tiny amount that you could never tell the difference. The only way to tell the difference between a randomized MM for WoT and a skill based MM for WoT would be by doing data analysis to look at the (tiny) change in blowout numbers. As a player, jumping into battles and experiencing the game as you play, you would never be able to tell the difference between Random MM and SBMM, the fact that this is a single-death game causes so many blowout that they would both feel identical as a player.

 

   OK  a lot of what you say makes sense.  But when you see a large skill imbalance between teams it's usually a pretty good indication of how the battle is going to go.  I know there are exceptions but usually the more skilled players are going to contribute more.

   Perhaps skill based MM won't significantly change the amount of lopsided battles but it will sure reduce the rage at seeing the deck stacked against you.



Pipinghot #30 Posted Apr 05 2018 - 00:36

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View PostKendosan, on Apr 04 2018 - 17:24, said:

 OK  a lot of what you say makes sense.  But when you see a large skill imbalance between teams it's usually a pretty good indication of how the battle is going to go.

Well, sort of. Seeing a skill imbalance might give you some idea of your chances of winning or losing, but now how you're going to win or lose. Remember, 50/50 battles still have a lot of steamrolls compared to other games.

View PostKendosan, on Apr 04 2018 - 17:24, said:

Perhaps skill based MM won't significantly change the amount of lopsided battles but it will sure reduce the rage at seeing the deck stacked against you.

It will just change what people rage about. Try reading the League of Legends forums some time, that game was built around SBMM from day one and yet they are just as full of anger and accusations of cheating and a "rigged" MM. Skill balancing changes the match maker, but it does not change how people behave or react. All it takes is for one player in a LoL game to do better than the rest and there's a good chance someone will accuse them of cheating or hacking. SBMM does not change the way people feel about the game.


Edited by Pipinghot, Apr 05 2018 - 02:35.


Son_of_the_South #31 Posted Apr 05 2018 - 00:50

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View PostTsarCidron, on Apr 02 2018 - 17:26, said:

MM isnt in charge of how a battle unfolds.  

 

Team 1 takes guns off the battlefield by focus firing, Team 2 spreads the damage by not focus firing..  Team 1 wins in a landslide.   MM cant fix tactics.  MM cant fix the steamroll effect once a team gets up by a few guns.  Thats how most steamrolls happen.  Its all about gun removal from the battlefield.

 

MM however does insure that the tanks are more or less evenly matched in total value.   No one side wont have the same number of a type that the other side has.  But, the totals will be close to the same in value.  It has its flaws.  It doesnt take into account the difference between a stock tank and an upgraded one.  Doesnt take into account any equipment mounted.  And, the obligatory, doesnt take into account skill of the players.

 

​Actually it can. It can put people together who know how to play as a team, i.e. those who play better. Steamrolls for this tier of skill will decrease because of the knowledge. Wins and Losses ARE INDEED a direct relation to the MM. MM put that team together. That team either acts like a team or does not, thus their inaction or action is a direct result of the aggregate that MM has created. Wins and Losses are directly related to MM.

Son_of_the_South #32 Posted Apr 05 2018 - 00:57

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View PostPipinghot, on Apr 04 2018 - 18:36, said:

Well, sort of. Seeing a skill imbalance might give you some idea of your chances of winning or losing, but now how you're going to win or lose. Remember, 50/50 battles still have a lot of steamrolls compared to other games.

It will just change what people rage about. Try reading the League of Legends forums some time, that game was built around SBMM from day one and yet they are just as full of anger and accusations of cheating and a "rigged" MM. Skill balancing changes the match maker, but it does not change how people behave or react. All it takes is for one player in a LoL game to do better than the rest and there's a good chance someone will accuse them of cheating or hacking. SBMM does not change the way people feel about the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

​League of Legends was the number one game played in 2017. They must be doing something right. Rage or not, the system works. What rank is WOT? It is not number 1.

Son_of_the_South #33 Posted Apr 05 2018 - 00:58

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View PostKendosan, on Apr 04 2018 - 17:24, said:

 

   OK  a lot of what you say makes sense.  But when you see a large skill imbalance between teams it's usually a pretty good indication of how the battle is going to go.  I know there are exceptions but usually the more skilled players are going to contribute more.

   Perhaps skill based MM won't significantly change the amount of lopsided battles but it will sure reduce the rage at seeing the deck stacked against you.

 

​You are 100% accurate. It is why casinos win. The odds are with them. Knowing the odds gives you a very good indication of the outcome.

Son_of_the_South #34 Posted Apr 05 2018 - 00:59

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View PostKendosan, on Apr 04 2018 - 12:34, said:

 

Really?  It can't get much worse.  My guess is they have never tried and don't really care.

Not sure if they changed something with 1.0, or I'm just in a bad streak, but seems like every other battle is lopsided now.

 

​I just got a 3rd warning for posting a screenshot just like this. They said I was naming and shaming. Others get away with it all the time however.

Son_of_the_South #35 Posted Apr 05 2018 - 01:00

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View Postdocroberts, on Apr 04 2018 - 10:01, said:

I fixed my MM , I reached over , pushed button and click , no power and off . No more steam rolls and the whole team turtled up behind the same rock . WG doesn't care . I used to play tier 8 most of the time , but as it sits now it's beyond stupid . And you cant make anything since your load out is mostly preem now . And the repair . Yes the game is all pretty now , but all that means is I get to see stupidity in HD quality . 

 

It is rather stupid to play tier 8 anything. Welcome to bottom tier every game.

Pipinghot #36 Posted Apr 05 2018 - 02:47

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View PostSon_of_the_South, on Apr 04 2018 - 18:57, said:

View PostPipinghot, on Apr 04 2018 - 18:36, said:

Well, sort of. Seeing a skill imbalance might give you some idea of your chances of winning or losing, but now how you're going to win or lose. Remember, 50/50 battles still have a lot of steamrolls compared to other games.

It will just change what people rage about. Try reading the League of Legends forums some time, that game was built around SBMM from day one and yet they are just as full of anger and accusations of cheating and a "rigged" MM. Skill balancing changes the match maker, but it does not change how people behave or react. All it takes is for one player in a LoL game to do better than the rest and there's a good chance someone will accuse them of cheating or hacking. SBMM does not change the way people feel about the game.

​League of Legends was the number one game played in 2017. They must be doing something right. Rage or not, the system works. What rank is WOT? It is not number 1.

What you say is completely true, and yet is completely out of context has nothing to do with the points being discussed, so grats on that I guess.

 

LoL has SBMM and yet that does not prevent endless volumes of complaining about the MM they use, so clearly SBMM does not "fix" anything, and it especially doesn't fix the tendency of people to blame the game for their losses.

 

And as an addendum, if you think you scored a witty point with "It is not number 1" you didn't. Viktor Kislyi was the third ever video game billionaire and WG is the first game company to ever buy a bank, so clearly WG "must be doing something right" too, regardless of your misguided ideas about SBMM.



_Gungrave_ #37 Posted Apr 05 2018 - 06:47

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View PostSon_of_the_South, on Apr 05 2018 - 00:57, said:

 

​League of Legends was the number one game played in 2017. They must be doing something right. Rage or not, the system works. What rank is WOT? It is not number 1.

 

All LoL did was copy Dota 2 and make slight improvements and overall a MOBA game like LoL is an easier game to pick up and play compared to WoT which requires a much greater understanding on how to play it. All of that has led to WoT remaining one of the top10 most played games for 5+ years but the complexity of it has always prevented it from being a top 5 kind of game..

EmperorJuliusCaesar #38 Posted Apr 05 2018 - 08:43

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View Postslnt_svc, on Apr 03 2018 - 14:04, said:

I guess even the players are as dense as WGA. Do you really think the pay to win was a serious comment? Geez, no wonder there are so many steam rolls.

 

And yes, I see many more lopsided games since the last couple MM updates.

 

The way I see it WGA is more interested in making things look pretty than actually fixing game issues. They do all sorts of fixes for graphics, but a big fat nothing to make game play better.

 

The good news is, WG has acknowledged that there are MM issues and state they will not stop working on it until they get it right.  It may take awhile, but....hopefully one of the changes will be to take skill into account.  Must never stop asking/demanding it.



EmperorJuliusCaesar #39 Posted Apr 05 2018 - 08:47

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View PostSon_of_the_South, on Apr 04 2018 - 15:59, said:

View PostKendosan, on Apr 04 2018 - 12:34, said:

 

Really?  It can't get much worse.  My guess is they have never tried and don't really care.

Not sure if they changed something with 1.0, or I'm just in a bad streak, but seems like every other battle is lopsided now.

 

 

​I just got a 3rd warning for posting a screenshot just like this. They said I was naming and shaming. Others get away with it all the time however.

 

That's because someone doesn't like the facts and reported you to silence the facts.



Son_of_the_South #40 Posted Apr 06 2018 - 12:12

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View PostPipinghot, on Apr 04 2018 - 20:47, said:

What you say is completely true, and yet is completely out of context has nothing to do with the points being discussed, so grats on that I guess.

 

LoL has SBMM and yet that does not prevent endless volumes of complaining about the MM they use, so clearly SBMM does not "fix" anything, and it especially doesn't fix the tendency of people to blame the game for their losses.

 

And as an addendum, if you think you scored a witty point with "It is not number 1" you didn't. Viktor Kislyi was the third ever video game billionaire and WG is the first game company to ever buy a bank, so clearly WG "must be doing something right" too, regardless of your misguided ideas about SBMM.

 

​The use of the word "misguided" is your opinion and is nothing more than a subjective statement just as my opinion about SBMM is an opinion, however I have the facts of reality to support my ideas. You have nothing but theory because SBMM does not exist in WOT. SBMM from other games does not translate to WOT as Gungrave has so eloquently pointed out. One can't translate the art of a "Power G Patriot" play from the football to basketball and call it a failure, ergo one does simply not translate SBMM from one game to another and say it does not work and vice versa.

 

I for one like to play with people who know as much about the game as I do. I don't like playing with those who are superior or those who are inferior to me. Playing with an entire team of inferior is the worst part. If I am the best person on the team, in my opinion MM has screwed up royally.







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