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War Gaming needs to fix this always bottom tier problem

bottom tier always bottom tier match making wargaming problems fix match making

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steelandpain #21 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 02:31

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LOL, I am sorry, but considering that your most played tanks are Type 64, Luchs, E25 and Scorpion G, which are all considered OP relative to their tier, aren't you part of the problem? You want to play those tanks at same tier or below? That would definitely break the game.

the_dude_76 #22 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 07:17

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View PostTRK213_Turkey, on Apr 12 2018 - 00:27, said:

 

I felt like I was bottom tier way more often that 47% so I tracked nearly 1100 multi-tier battles to check.  Was bottom tier 72.3% of the time, mid 8.4% and top 19.3%.

 

Multi-tier battles?? Because if you're counting 5/10 battles then obviously that would skew the results. 66% of tanks are "bottom" tier in a 5/10 match.

 

Regardless, the Law of Averages holds true, if you are getting bottom tier more often than average then someone else is getting it more often than average. Again, this is simple math, 20% of the tanks in EVERY 3/5/7 match are top tier, 33% are middle and 47% are bottom. Think about it! You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that not everyone could possibly be in the bottom tier, in a 3/5/7 match, 72% of the time when only 47% of tanks in any given match are on the bottom tier. 

I honestly don't understand how this is so hard for people to grasp



awildseaking #23 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 09:27

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Apr 12 2018 - 01:17, said:

Multi-tier battles?? Because if you're counting 5/10 battles then obviously that would skew the results. 66% of tanks are "bottom" tier in a 5/10 match.

 

Regardless, the Law of Averages holds true, if you are getting bottom tier more often than average then someone else is getting it more often than average. Again, this is simple math, 20% of the tanks in EVERY 3/5/7 match are top tier, 33% are middle and 47% are bottom. Think about it! You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that not everyone could possibly be in the bottom tier, in a 3/5/7 match, 72% of the time when only 47% of tanks in any given match are on the bottom tier. 

I honestly don't understand how this is so hard for people to grasp

 

That's not how it works at all. Just because 20% of the tanks are top tier doesn't mean you will be top tier 20% of the time.

 

Ex. Suppose there are 100 people at T5, 200 people at T6, and 400 people at T7. Nobody else is playing any other tier. T5 will be bottom tier 100% of the time.

 

Everyone is bottom tier more often than not because each successive tier is dramatically more populated than the next one and MM keeps trying to force 15v15 games.



FluffyBadBad #24 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 09:31

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change it to 7=5=3 instead of 3=5=7

Kliphie #25 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 13:25

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All the math in the world is useless for predicting tier placement without an accurate picture of the player pool at the time of selection.  

Atragon #26 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 13:33

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Even Gilligan got his head on top of a totem pole!!!!!!!

sleeper_agent #27 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 14:14

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View PostxX_GRIDLOK_Xx, on Apr 11 2018 - 14:46, said:

This company really needs to change this problem for us players as us always being bottom tier in pretty much most of the games your in. Unless you play tier 9 or 10 obviously. But I see this isn't a problem for war gaming because this kind of match making makes this company money for sure. So why would they fix it. So lets see I use my pref match making tanks and I am almost forced to shoot gold rounds. Because its pretty tough to shoot a tier 9 tank with 175 mm of pen from an AP shell. Fighting a tier 9 heavy lets say a e75 at a 55% angle there is one spot you can shoot it in the bottom plate and its a 10% chance that you might pen it....[edited]so outta 10 shoots you might hit it one time?

     There pref match making tanks as most of us know you rarely get a top tier game in a pref match making tank unless you just bought the tank and its your first game in it. But for an example I just played 17 games and not one of them games was I a top tier tank and 3 were pref match making tanks outta them 17 games. So tier 8's and 9's in the pref tanks. Then I jumped around to do my X2's tanks. I played 17 games and outta 4 of them games I was mid tier. Now the rest of the games witch is 10 I was bottom tier 17 games total not 1 dang top tier game WoW. So war gaming really can you maybe fix this problem us players run into everytime we play this game? Prolly not because this makes there workers get there pockets lined with the money us paying customers actually pay to maybe get a chance to have a tank that might as people say be OP. But then of course this company will then make it so your tier 8 premium tank ends up being bottom tier.  So then that will then end up always being bottom tier so then in return having to shoot gold rounds that takes away from your credits that then forces people to either buy a premium account or just end up losing all your credits.     So I doubt this will change this company in making a decision on change tanks always being bottom tier and obviously this forum thing doesnt get the word to this war gaming company because in the end this company is gonna do what they want and us people that have sunk money into this game just have to deal with it. As WG doesnt like to give any refunds on things that aren't used like say premium time thats bought. You dont use it because its actually paid in advance but then if you ask for the credit back or exchange it for gold hahaha thats not gonna happen so its a lost cause period when playing this game and either deal with it or dont it comes down to. But I bet this problem ( on are end) will never see the day of light. 

I'm sure people are gonna have some kind of smart remarks well save it cause I dont give a flying F@#k.

 

Dude you have valid points. 

Bottom tiers have it tough for many reasons. You’ve mentioned a few.

My biggest issue with facing tanks two tiers above you is that if your teams top tiers are idiots, AFK, or ineffectual for whatever reason, your best efforts are likely in vain.

 

Its a team game and you have to rely on the luck of the draw when youre bottom tier. Even as top tier, if youre lower mates melt away fast, you will get swarmed.

 

Its been mentioned above and cant be stressed enough- pay attention to the mini map. First try to figure out where tanks you CAN pen will be and where tanks you CANT will be, play accordingly and move during the battle if that planning isnt correct.

 

bottom line....just try

 



TRK213_Turkey #28 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 15:21

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Apr 12 2018 - 07:17, said:

 

Multi-tier battles?? Because if you're counting 5/10 battles then obviously that would skew the results. 66% of tanks are "bottom" tier in a 5/10 match.

 

Regardless, the Law of Averages holds true, if you are getting bottom tier more often than average then someone else is getting it more often than average. Again, this is simple math, 20% of the tanks in EVERY 3/5/7 match are top tier, 33% are middle and 47% are bottom. Think about it! You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that not everyone could possibly be in the bottom tier, in a 3/5/7 match, 72% of the time when only 47% of tanks in any given match are on the bottom tier. 

I honestly don't understand how this is so hard for people to grasp

 

There was a mix of 3/5/7 and 5/10 battles in my count but the majority was 3/5/7.  Even if all the matches had been 5/10 that would only result in 66% bottom tier average.  .  If the mix had been 50/50 3/5/7 and 5/10 then the expected bottom tier percentage would have been 57%.  My recorded bottom tier average was 72.3% which, even a non-rocket scientist, can tell you is greater than 57% or even 66%.

 

I think that 1100 battles is a large enough sample to demonstrate the problem.  The problem isn't that people don't understand math, the law of averages or anything like that.  The problem is that MM is not producing the tier percentages that the law of averages would predict.



Kliphie #29 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 15:22

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View PostTRK213_Turkey, on Apr 12 2018 - 09:21, said:

 

There was a mix of 3/5/7 and 5/10 battles in my count but the majority was 3/5/7.  Even if all the matches had been 5/10 that would only result in 66% bottom tier average.  .  If the mix had been 50/50 3/5/7 and 5/10 then the expected bottom tier percentage would have been 57%.  My recorded bottom tier average was 72.3% which, even a non-rocket scientist, can tell you is greater than 57% or even 66%.

 

I think that 1100 battles is a large enough sample to demonstrate the problem.  The problem isn't that people don't understand math, the law of averages or anything like that.  The problem is that MM is not producing the tier percentages that the law of averages would predict.

 

What was the composition of the player pool at the time Battle was clicked, +/- 4 tiers around the selected tank?

TRK213_Turkey #30 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 15:36

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View PostKliphie, on Apr 12 2018 - 15:22, said:

 

What was the composition of the player pool at the time Battle was clicked, +/- 4 tiers around the selected tank?

 

I would have no way of answering that question and have no clue how the MM is coded.  However, MM is a computer algorithm and as such the information MM has to work with (player pool) will influence the results it produces.  So, unless there is some randomization code, MM would produce the same grouping for the same player pool every time.  The thing that upsets people is that the tier placement result produced by MM is not what random chance would predict.  This leads to frustration and claims that MM is "rigged".

Kliphie #31 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 15:40

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View PostTRK213_Turkey, on Apr 12 2018 - 09:36, said:

 

I would have no way of answering that question and have no clue how the MM is coded.  However, MM is a computer algorithm and as such the information MM has to work with (player pool) will influence the results it produces.  So, unless there is some randomization code, MM would produce the same grouping for the same player pool every time.  The thing that upsets people is that the tier placement result produced by MM is not what random chance would predict.  This leads to frustration and claims that MM is "rigged".

 

If everyone is getting a higher percentage of bottom tier games than expected, then the expectations must be wrong.  

POLIZEI110 #32 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 15:55

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Will not waste my time [edited]about constant bottom tier, I solved this problem my self.

If after 7 matches, I find my self still being bottom tier.....then I simply go for a swim till MM stops it's BS



TRK213_Turkey #33 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 16:35

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View PostKliphie, on Apr 12 2018 - 15:40, said:

 

If everyone is getting a higher percentage of bottom tier games than expected, then the expectations must be wrong.  

 

That is a good point but I have no way of determining what the global tier percentages might be.

 

However, if someone told you that they were implementing a 3/5/7 system, for example, you would probably expect your own percentages to match that grouping fairly closely over enough matches.



Necrophore #34 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 18:33

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View Postawildseaking, on Apr 12 2018 - 00:27, said:

T5 will be bottom tier 100% of the time.

 

Ah, you've played on my server, it seems.

Da_Craw #35 Posted Apr 12 2018 - 19:37

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Apr 11 2018 - 16:29, said:

 

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist...

https://en.wikipedia...bability_theory

https://en.wikipedia...Law_of_averages

 

 

Which is why I specifically said "in a 3/5/7 match". The number of people playing at different tiers is largely irrelevant since the spread is limited to 3/5/7 and there are no limits on queue time. More players at any given tier are more likely to result in a 5/10 spread or single tier battles thus offsetting the impact on 3/5/7 matches. This is all fairly basic stuff in the field of mathematics

 

Bottom line, even if my claim isn't 100% accurate 100% of the time it is still based upon scientific principle and mathematics. Your claims are based entirely upon speculation and confirmation bias (I can post a link to that to if you need assurance that such a thing exists...)

 

From the wiki page you cite:

"As invoked in everyday life, the "law" usually reflects wishful thinking or a poor understanding of statistics rather than any mathematical principle."

Thanks for making my point for me.  

You actually have no math or science behind your claim.  The number of people playing at different tiers is entirely relevant.  In fact, it is responsible for why T8 is bottom tier more often than 47% of the time.  



the_dude_76 #36 Posted Apr 13 2018 - 03:42

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View Postawildseaking, on Apr 12 2018 - 08:27, said:

 

That's not how it works at all. Just because 20% of the tanks are top tier doesn't mean you will be top tier 20% of the time.

 

 

It means that SOMEONE will be top tier 20% of the time. In every 3/5/7 match only 47% of players are bottom tier, this is a fact even if none of you can grasp it



the_dude_76 #37 Posted Apr 13 2018 - 03:55

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Block Quote

 I think that 1100 battles is a large enough sample to demonstrate the problem.  The problem isn't that people don't understand math, the law of averages or anything like that.  The problem is that MM is not producing the tier percentages that the law of averages would predict.

 

Stop and seriously think about this for a second, imagine that everyone shared your experience and was bottom tier 72% of the time... How could this be possible when only 47% of tanks in every single 3/5/7 match are bottom tier?? It isn't possible, if one person is getting bottom tier more often than the average predicts then someone else is getting bottom tier less often than the average predicts. There is no way around this fact.

 

You can make the argument that some tiers are more likely to be on the bottom but again, this is only possible if other tiers are less likely to be on the bottom because the simple reality is that less than half of the tanks in every single 3/5/7 match are on the bottom...

 

Block Quote

 That is a good point but I have no way of determining what the global tier percentages might be.

 

Yes you do!! The "global percentage" of bottom tier players in a 3/5/7 match is 47%!! There can not be more or less!!


Edited by the_dude_76, Apr 13 2018 - 04:05.


the_dude_76 #38 Posted Apr 13 2018 - 04:00

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View PostDa_Craw, on Apr 12 2018 - 18:37, said:

From the wiki page you cite:

"As invoked in everyday life, the "law" usually reflects wishful thinking or a poor understanding of statistics rather than any mathematical principle."

Thanks for making my point for me.  

You actually have no math or science behind your claim.  The number of people playing at different tiers is entirely relevant.  In fact, it is responsible for why T8 is bottom tier more often than 47% of the time.  

 

So you acknowledge that the law exists and yet you claim there is no science behind it??? This makes sense to you somehow???

 

I'm sorry that this flies over your head but yet once again, like it or not, in every single 3/5/7 match less than half of the players are on the bottom. There is no possible way for every single person in this game to experience being on the bottom tier, in a 3/5/7 match, more than half of the time. Ask your math teacher to explain it to you, he/she will probably do a better job of it than me.



Rosebud #39 Posted Apr 13 2018 - 04:53

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Apr 11 2018 - 15:34, said:

They can't fix something that only exists in your imagination...

Only 47% of tanks in a 3/5/7 match are bottom tier so the Law of Averages says you'll only be bottom tier 47% of the time in 3 tier spread matches. Even if you have really bad luck you aren't "always bottom tier" even if you have conned yourself into believing that's the case.

 

 

So then why should we "give a flying fck" about your nonsensical ranting and raving??

 

You are wrong and if you kept track of twenty 5/6 tier match's you would agree. I am currently at 90% bottom in tier 5 matches. 66 matches played, 2 top tier, 5 middle, 59 bottom. It exists and doesn't take any imagination to see that it exists.

the_dude_76 #40 Posted Apr 13 2018 - 15:30

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View PostRosebud, on Apr 13 2018 - 03:53, said:

 

You are wrong and if you kept track of twenty 5/6 tier match's you would agree. I am currently at 90% bottom in tier 5 matches. 66 matches played, 2 top tier, 5 middle, 59 bottom. It exists and doesn't take any imagination to see that it exists.

 

20 matches?? You're joking right?? And you're missing the point, read my other posts. If you're getting bottom tier more than 47% of the time then someone else is getting bottom tier less than 47% of the time. If tier 5 is bottom tier more than 47% of the time then another tier is bottom less than 47% of the time. IN EVERY SINGLE 3/5/7 match there can be no more than 47% of the players sitting on the bottom so OBVIOUSLY not everyone can be bottom tier 90% of the time!! This is an irrefutable fact!!






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