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War Gaming needs to fix this always bottom tier problem

bottom tier always bottom tier match making wargaming problems fix match making

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TRK213_Turkey #41 Posted Apr 13 2018 - 16:00

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Apr 13 2018 - 03:55, said:

Yes you do!! The "global percentage" of bottom tier players in a 3/5/7 match is 47%!! There can not be more or less!!

 

I don't think that everyone is seeing a higher than expected bottom tier count.  if MM was a pure 3/5/7 system (for argument) then overall percentages would be 20%, 33% and 47%.  I was talking about determining the percentage of people (on a global basis) who are seeing a higher than expected bottom tier count. 

 

If someone is getting more than 47% bottom tier (in our pure 3/5/7 system) that means that someone else is getting a higher percentage of top/mid tier matches.  That is why some people think MM is rigged.  Personally, I just think it is very bad at it's job.



Kliphie #42 Posted Apr 13 2018 - 16:03

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View PostTRK213_Turkey, on Apr 13 2018 - 10:00, said:

 

I don't think that everyone is seeing a higher than expected bottom tier count.  if MM was a pure 3/5/7 system (for argument) then overall percentages would be 20%, 33% and 47%.  I was talking about determining the percentage of people (on a global basis) who are seeing a higher than expected bottom tier count. 

 

If someone is getting more than 47% bottom tier (in our pure 3/5/7 system) that means that someone else is getting a higher percentage of top/mid tier matches.  That is why some people think MM is rigged.  Personally, I just think it is very bad at it's job.

 

That makes the assumption that the player pool for all tiers is the same size.  

Blastyourasst #43 Posted Apr 13 2018 - 18:15

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http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/575534-single-tier-mm-petition/

 

 

Vote on my poll to petition for single tier Match Making.  Let your voices be heard!!



cthulhu_hunter #44 Posted Apr 13 2018 - 18:33

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Apr 12 2018 - 06:17, said:

 

Multi-tier battles?? Because if you're counting 5/10 battles then obviously that would skew the results. 66% of tanks are "bottom" tier in a 5/10 match.

 

Regardless, the Law of Averages holds true, if you are getting bottom tier more often than average then someone else is getting it more often than average. Again, this is simple math, 20% of the tanks in EVERY 3/5/7 match are top tier, 33% are middle and 47% are bottom. Think about it! You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that not everyone could possibly be in the bottom tier, in a 3/5/7 match, 72% of the time when only 47% of tanks in any given match are on the bottom tier. 

I honestly don't understand how this is so hard for people to grasp

 

You just do not get it. The game is rigged so you are bottom tier most of the time. I do not keep track, but I bet I am bottom tier (in all my tanks) about 75-85% of the time. 

the_dude_76 #45 Posted Apr 13 2018 - 20:02

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View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Apr 13 2018 - 17:33, said:

 

You just do not get it. The game is rigged so you are bottom tier most of the time. I do not keep track, but I bet I am bottom tier (in all my tanks) about 75-85% of the time. 

 

No you just don't get it. It is literally IMPOSSIBLE for everyone to be bottom tier most of the time.

 

Block Quote

 I do not keep track, but I bet I am bottom tier (in all my tanks) about 75-85% of the time. 

 

That's called confirmation bias... Look it up.

 

And of course who is dumb enough to play a game that they actually believe is rigged against them???



Beef__Cake #46 Posted Apr 19 2018 - 12:32

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Thanks for that last comment the_dude_76 .... to play a game that they actually believe is rigged against them

 

I moved from the NA server to the EU server after having what I was sure was an awful MM experience due to what I perceived as a disproportionate number or higher tier matches (an opinion many share).  The reason for the move to the EU was that it was suggested that the higher EU player numbers could resolve the MM issue.


Well that wasn’t the case.  I reached Tier 8 and the same problem came to the fore.  So I recorded the next 50 matches, 12% were Tier 8 (of which some were only Tier 8 vehicles), 44% were Tier 9 and 44% were Tier 10.  A ‘fair’ system which uses a 3 tier window would surely have equal Tier 8 (where you face off against Tier 6) and Tier 10 matches regardless of the precise spread (answer is Yes in case you’re unsure). 

 

So from my experience/calcs, MM is either rigged or knowingly broken (which is much the same as rigged).  There is a money-making (albeit disingenuous) reason for WG to leave it as it is since it promotes gold shell use (as some have previously suggested was the case). 

 

Now some players have 50,000 games which equates to ~1 year of playing (24 hours a day).

With such a huge time investment – surely having a balanced game is paramont since what 'idiot' sinks that many hours into something they believe is rigged as  the_dude_76 suggested

 

The only option then for those who aren’t ‘idiots’, is to either quit or push through until you’re sitting at Tier 9 or 10…. since at least that way the deck isn't stacked against you.


Edited by Beef__Cake, Apr 19 2018 - 12:41.


Shadow_Wolfe #47 Posted Apr 19 2018 - 14:12

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View PostDockmaster, on Apr 11 2018 - 20:10, said:

I would be willing to be exposed to longer queue times for one tier only battles.

 

The best games I have lately is the odd tier 8 only battles.

 

I agree, whenever I run out of premium time, the only tanks that I can play that will give me a net gain in credits for a loss are premium tanks (and I lose a lot, so much so that I expect to lose every match I get in anymore), and I have a lot of tier 8 premium tanks, which are ok in their tier, but completely outmatched when you are bottom tier. Yes, you may be able to pen a tier 10 tank with it, but your damage output is a pin prick to his tier 10 Hps, and his damage output to your tier 8 armor and tier out Hps is considerable. A tier 10 can take down a tier 8 in 2 or 3 shots, while a tier 8 can take down a tier 10 in 5 to 6 shots, depending on damage rolls and whatnot. And the guns on a lot of the tier 8's takes just as long to load or longer than their tier 10 counterparts, so you can't outshoot them. Take the T34 as an example, a tier 9 gun that takes roughly 12 seconds to load, depending on crew skills and equipment, cannot out shoot most tier 10's, and their higher tier guns, even their same tier guns will cut thru your armor like butter. And like you, the best games I have in my tier 8s is in a tier 8 match.

 Just had a game recently with my T26E5 premium heavy tank. I was top tier and the only heavy on my side, which, at the start of the match I thought was going to go badly for me, they had a T34 and a T29 on their side on Abbey, and 3 artys per side. I and one other medium started down the Heavy tank corridor alone and I was wondering if we would be able to hold it with just us 2, but went full bore anyhow, by the end of the match I had scored 7 kills, to include all 3 of the arties. An AT15 on my team sent me a platoon invite prior to the end that had 3 kills, so I was able to get top gun, the medal for killing 3 arties and crucial contribution, plus 7 bonds. Was a rare game to have for me. Most games I am lucky to get off a couple shots before I am slaughtered.



Daemonwolfe9999 #48 Posted Apr 19 2018 - 16:47

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Well think we can forget them ever changing the MM. According the latest common test gold rounds are being re-balanced. I'm guessing, as far as WG is concerned, that the re-balance is their attempt to fixing it.

24cups #49 Posted Apr 19 2018 - 17:01

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I played 10 games yesterday all tier 7 8 or 9. The only time I recall being top tier was my only arty game.  I won 8 of 10.
Someone has to be bottom tier.  Suck it up buttercup.

Tacitus68 #50 Posted Apr 18 2019 - 23:06

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I joined WoT about 4 months ago.  Very cool game, but wthis wrong with match making?  I'm about to quit and what a shame.  Here is an honest breakdown of my matches and the tier make-up  (I started tracking it by week 4 or 5):

Matches I was 2 tiers down - 89

Matches I was 1 tier down - 136

Matches everyone was same tier - 39

Matches I was 1-2 tiers up - 22 (6 times I was 2 tiers up).

 

These matches only include Tier 5 and up, with the exception of tier 4 if I was against tier 6.  225 times I was a tier or two down, 22 times I was the higher tier.  How can this be?  Is match making completely broken in this game?  Sheer mathematical averages should have this closer.  I would take longer queues if matches could at leats be only one tier different.  This is just simply terrible match making.  Please intelligent comments only.  The idiots with nothing intelligent to offer can keep the "git good" and see above "suck it up buttercup" to themselves.  Thx



FrozenKemp #51 Posted Apr 18 2019 - 23:12

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Why didn't you separate your data before and after the recent MM change?  Are you unaware that there was recently a matchmaker change which creates more same-tier and only-one-tier-different battles?

 

I'm unclear what you are saying about tier 4. Are you saying that you did not include tier 4 battles which were all same tier, or were tier 5+4, or where you were top tier?

 

This isn't to deny that the old matchmaker was really tough, but given your dissatisfaction you might (if you have weekly numbers) want to make two totals and see whether things changed since the patch.


Edited by FrozenKemp, Apr 18 2019 - 23:18.


Bear5639 #52 Posted Apr 18 2019 - 23:27

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They have fixed it for the most part, They just added more templates to the MM, I enjoy the new MM now then the old 3/5/7. The ONLY complaint i have is now i do see more of the 4/5/6 in my tier 8's which means i see 1 extra tier tier 10, But that really doesnt bother me since i played this game alot of years, Nobody who has every played the very old MM should complain about the EASY mm that we got now, I remember the days when i would take my Lowe out and i would be the ONLY tier 8 tank on my team and the rest ALL tier 10's. Yes the good old days of my lowe having to fight 14 tier 10 tanks LOL. The new MM is way better then the 3/5/7 and the old days of 4 tier difference levels when tier 6's seen tier 10's... 

Stevenwt #53 Posted Apr 19 2019 - 03:01

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View PostFrozenKemp, on Apr 18 2019 - 16:12, said:

Why didn't you separate your data before and after the recent MM change?  Are you unaware that there was recently a matchmaker change which creates more same-tier and only-one-tier-different battles?

 

I'm unclear what you are saying about tier 4. Are you saying that you did not include tier 4 battles which were all same tier, or were tier 5+4, or where you were top tier?

 

This isn't to deny that the old matchmaker was really tough, but given your dissatisfaction you might (if you have weekly numbers) want to make two totals and see whether things changed since the patch.

 

it’s a thread necro in progress! 

 

 


Edited by Stevenwt, Apr 19 2019 - 03:06.


Tacitus68 #54 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 00:53

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Frozen Kemp was obviously upset that data from the last month was too old, so here is data from the last week, April 18 through April 22 (I'm on vacation, so I played a lot, don't judge me  :P ) ...

 

These are matches with tier 5-7 tanks ...

Matches where I was 2 tiers down - 34

Matches I was 1 tier down - 49

Matches where all tanks were same tier - 6

Matches where I was a 1-2 tiers up - 3

 

83 times I was under tiered, 3 times I was the highest tier. 

 

I don't know how the old system worked, but is this considered balanced matchmaking compared to how it used to be?  These are honest numbers.  Nothing to be gained by not being honest.  The numbers come from two accounts I play.

 


Edited by Tacitus68, Apr 23 2019 - 00:54.


TankFullOfBourbon #55 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 11:14

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Jesus. The complaints about being bottom tier never ends. WG can modify MM until they’re blue and there will always be complaints. This is why WG should not listen tonplayers.

Roggg2 #56 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 14:20

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Tier 5 is a special case.  They dont see tier 3s ever so you wont see "up 2 tiers".  If your data set includes a lot of tier 5 play, the results will be skewed by that.  Down 1 tier is a pretty good place to be in tier 5.  You are down 2 tiers less than 1/3 of the time.  This is massively better than it was before the recent changes.  

G1N_T4NK #57 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 14:25

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Love the new mm

moogleslam #58 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 14:34

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MM is phenomenal now, and this year old thread getting a necro could lead to confusion by some.

Ciabhan #59 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 14:44

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Apr 12 2018 - 01:17, said:

 

Multi-tier battles?? Because if you're counting 5/10 battles then obviously that would skew the results. 66% of tanks are "bottom" tier in a 5/10 match.

 

Regardless, the Law of Averages holds true, if you are getting bottom tier more often than average then someone else is getting it more often than average. Again, this is simple math, 20% of the tanks in EVERY 3/5/7 match are top tier, 33% are middle and 47% are bottom. Think about it! You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that not everyone could possibly be in the bottom tier, in a 3/5/7 match, 72% of the time when only 47% of tanks in any given match are on the bottom tier. 

I honestly don't understand how this is so hard for people to grasp

 

You're arguing under the logical fallacy that all tiers have equal numbers of players.  You would be correct if that were the case.  But it isn't.  Instead you have(for example) 150 players at tier 4, 800 at tier 5, 175 at tier 6, 200 at 7, 1600 at 8, 800 at 9, and 500 at 10.  This inevitably changes the math.  The match maker can't match MOST of the tier 8s against lower tiers so they are forced to play higher tiers more often.  Same goes for tier 5 in this example.

 

Damnit feel for the necro.


Edited by Ciabhan, Apr 23 2019 - 14:45.


toesave #60 Posted Apr 23 2019 - 14:56

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View Postrockbutcher, on Apr 11 2018 - 20:00, said:

...or push the s key to back out of the engagement with the nasty E75.  Or...read your minimap and go where your bottom tiered tank can be of the most value, against the other 7 enemy bottom tier tanks.

 

sigh.... this again...we need to stop blaming MM for the play of your side of a random.   if both sides have the same number of tiers then it is what it is,,,  be it +/- 2 or 1 or 5 for that matter... both sides are basically the same.   that is good..

 

as a bottom tier you can be effective by playing your own tank to the best of your ability..  I am bottom tier a lot so what.. it is what it is..    hang with the big boys and help them kill that big bad E-75.  rockbutcher is right on the money.

 

I would do the best I could in that position.. either i'd run to a safer place or better yet i'd do the right thing and fight it out..    try tracking him.  if he can't move he will die soon enough..    match maker is not the problem never ever was

 

no one complains when they win.....






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