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Make Premium Ammo cost 5x more silver

premium ammo

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hllrbrn #41 Posted Apr 13 2018 - 21:04

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View PostRoIito, on Apr 13 2018 - 05:14, said:

 

But that does require the players to think instead of pressing the number 2 when a single shell bounces.

 

 

OK let me "think" it out for you. 

 

not exactly the same every time but it can be extrapolated from this basic concept into most situations. 

 

1) Oh crap there is their type 5 

2) No problem i will just flank him

3) Oh thats right I'm in a corridor with impassible terrain on either side, sigh, I really miss when the maps were more open... 

4) F^&&$#!! Arty!!!!!!, (clicks med kit, clicks repair kit)  

5) Wait, there is a spot I can move, right there, maybe i can get to his side from there. 

6) Nope that is the one spot you can slightly shoot into the corridor their FV4005 is watching that from right over there.  

7) Guys i am going to bait a shot, once he fires you have to go while he is reloading 

8)  OK go, GO!, GO!!!....your not going, your just sitting there, yep and now he is reloaded. Now your going.....

9) 2  



Fbomb #42 Posted Apr 13 2018 - 21:11

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Get rid of superheavies, THEN get rid of silver prem

Silky_Slim #43 Posted Apr 14 2018 - 02:15

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They are changing Premium ammo to silver only because then they can change its characteristics and people can't make "bait and switch" claims.

VooDooKobra #44 Posted Apr 14 2018 - 03:07

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Increasing the premium ammo an additional 5x will only do one thing.  those who can afford it will keeps shooting it and those who cannot will be in the forums complaining about how the game is now more pay to win

SpectreHD #45 Posted Apr 14 2018 - 16:13

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View Post_Gungrave_, on Apr 14 2018 - 03:47, said:

 

They didn't hint anything as that was them throwing random ideas out there. WG knows they can't go back to gold only because they've practically balanced the game around gold ammo with many tanks requiring the use of gold ammo if you even want to have a chance of penning them.

 

There is like maybe a handful of tanks that are maybe balanced around it and those would be the vehicles that were buffed in the last year or so and newly introduced tanks like the 268 v4. So pretty much after Rubicon fiasco and when WG announcing that they decided to make armour a balanceable stat from a mostly historically accurate stat.

 

Most tanks however are balanced without premium ammo taken into account. Balanced when super testers were told not to use it during super tests.

 

View PostFbomb, on Apr 14 2018 - 04:11, said:

Get rid of superheavies, THEN get rid of silver prem

 

Or we do something to the broken game mechanic that caused superheavies to be buffed in the first place! For a long time super heavies like the Maus, E100, and Type 4/5 in addition to other slow heavies like the Black Prince and KV-4 were all jokes that you rarely ever see in battle. The Maus, one of two of the oldest Tier X in the game and the oldest super heavy, was never ever an issue prior to its buff. Even when premium ammo was rarely ever fired outside of CW.

 

WG have stated why they have buffed the Maus and Type 4/5. No one was playing them. No one was leveling up to the Type 4/5 despite being recent additions.

 

The answer was very simple. They could not perform in an environment where their armour could be easily negated with just two presses of the 2 key.

 

So if you want balance to return, armour brought back down to sane or even historical levels, then the answer is to deal with the broken mechanic that is premium ammo. The current crap state that is balance in this game is the result of allowing everyone to easily use a balance destroying pay to win item. That is why it is a broken mechanic.


Edited by SpectreHD, Apr 14 2018 - 16:15.


Gang_Starr #46 Posted Apr 14 2018 - 16:19

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As long as there is heavy rng on accuracy, gold rounds will always be spammed. When you have to aim for 4 seconds at a weakspot and then your shot goes to a completely different spot from where you aimed and bounces, that is poor game design. I spam gold against superheavies to minimize RNG, I still aim for the same weakspots but I just don't want the game to randomly F me over. Also, when a weaspot is 200mm thick, your base penetration is 220, but then you get a penetration low roll and dont go through the weakspot That is horrible game design. 

 



KINGN0VA #47 Posted Apr 14 2018 - 19:59

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View PostuZiq, on Apr 12 2018 - 22:43, said:

It's too painless to just switch to premium ammo whenever I encounter a tank with armor.  Make premium ammo cost 5X as much silver, and I won't be able to earn as much unless I use less premium ammo.  I think this would help tanks with more armor like the heavy german lines, and the is4 line.

 

Back when it only cost gold I never used it.  Then when silver was hard to come by I only used it some.  I also didn't get hit with it as much.  But now with the credit boosts and all the missions and campaign silver rewards, the silver cost of premium ammo is no longer painful.  I'm using it more, and the people shooting me are also using it more.

 

Completely agree.

SKurj #48 Posted Apr 14 2018 - 20:01

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ppl really don't get it...   why not just make premium 150% of non-premium and then its not expensive for everyone we can all use it if we wish

 



VooDooKobra #49 Posted Apr 14 2018 - 21:46

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View PostSKurj, on Apr 14 2018 - 12:01, said:

ppl really don't get it...   why not just make premium 150% of non-premium and then its not expensive for everyone we can all use it if we wish

 

 

personally i think they should do 4 things 

 

1.  keep the good ped but lower dmg to make it a tactical choice

2. rework each ammos characteristics to make them unigue and situational

3. make it so we can use any secondary or even third ammo

4. lower the price of everything so tanks have a better chance of profiting

 

this may not be a great idea but it may work as a starting point


Edited by VooDooKobra, Apr 14 2018 - 21:48.


SKurj #50 Posted Apr 14 2018 - 22:29

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View PostVooDooKobra, on Apr 14 2018 - 15:46, said:

 

1.  keep the good pen but lower dmg to make it a tactical choice

 

this may not be a great idea but it may work as a starting point

 

I am in agreement with you for #1, I had the same idea.



SpectreHD #51 Posted Apr 15 2018 - 01:42

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View PostGang_Starr, on Apr 14 2018 - 23:19, said:

As long as there is heavy rng on accuracy, gold rounds will always be spammed. When you have to aim for 4 seconds at a weakspot and then your shot goes to a completely different spot from where you aimed and bounces, that is poor game design. I spam gold against superheavies to minimize RNG, I still aim for the same weakspots but I just don't want the game to randomly F me over. Also, when a weaspot is 200mm thick, your base penetration is 220, but then you get a penetration low roll and dont go through the weakspot That is horrible game design. 

 

 

Yeah what about the poor game design of screwing balance over for the large, slower tanks? I guess that is fine so that we can snipe heavies from the front with one of the worst accuracy guns on a medium tank at long range.

Edited by SpectreHD, Apr 15 2018 - 01:43.


hllrbrn #52 Posted Apr 15 2018 - 02:30

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View PostSpectreHD, on Apr 14 2018 - 15:13, said:

 

There is like maybe a handful of tanks that are maybe balanced around it and those would be the vehicles that were buffed in the last year or so and newly introduced tanks like the 268 v4. So pretty much after Rubicon fiasco and when WG announcing that they decided to make armour a balanceable stat from a mostly historically accurate stat.

 

Most tanks however are balanced without premium ammo taken into account. Balanced when super testers were told not to use it during super tests.

 

 

Or we do something to the broken game mechanic that caused superheavies to be buffed in the first place! For a long time super heavies like the Maus, E100, and Type 4/5 in addition to other slow heavies like the Black Prince and KV-4 were all jokes that you rarely ever see in battle. The Maus, one of two of the oldest Tier X in the game and the oldest super heavy, was never ever an issue prior to its buff. Even when premium ammo was rarely ever fired outside of CW.

 

WG have stated why they have buffed the Maus and Type 4/5. No one was playing them. No one was leveling up to the Type 4/5 despite being recent additions.

 

The answer was very simple. They could not perform in an environment where their armour could be easily negated with just two presses of the 2 key.

 

So if you want balance to return, armour brought back down to sane or even historical levels, then the answer is to deal with the broken mechanic that is premium ammo. The current crap state that is balance in this game is the result of allowing everyone to easily use a balance destroying pay to win item. That is why it is a broken mechanic.

 

You make some well reasoned points and ultimately there are several groups of players with different perspectives on what they would like to see from the developers.  I am interpreting, and please tell me if I am misunderstanding, you are of the opinion that the level of premium round use is by itself is an isolated individual problem that can be addresses directly and the outcome for the overall game will be good.   

 

I am of a different opinion as to premium use and the solution only being directed at premium rounds.  If we changed the premium round mechanics only without addressing the multiple root causes of what is actually causing the elevated use of premium rounds we would end up with a  game that ultimately would end up with one or two corridors with tall walls with 15 tanks on top of each other on one end and 15 more at the other and just bounce shots off of each other  till the arty hiding in the back kills everyone. 

 

I believe that we have too much of that already and a more holistic approach is needed to achieve a positive end result. 

 

That being said I am skeptical that WG will implement a change that is well thought out and beneficial to the game overall. Unfortunately I predict they will do exactly what you want and  that  "solution"  most likely will be to reduce the damage that a premium round does ultimately not decreasing the amount of premium rounds fired but actually increasing their use to achieve the same damage.

 

Its a great solution for WG  it will require players to buy more premium time and premium tanks increasing their profits. But not so great for gameplay and the player base.  



Ophrys12 #53 Posted Apr 15 2018 - 03:08

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Here's an idea to balance munitions:

 

AP - set as "standard" penetration, damage, shell velocity and %chance to injure crew or damage/destroy tank component. 5º normalization. Ammo price set as 1X.

 

APCR - gets boost in penetration, but suffers greater loss of pen at range. Damage begins to decrease after 50 m, lose up to 35% damage by 500 m. Shell velocity increased. 2º normalization. Lower %chance to injure crew members, increased %chance to damage/destroy tank component. Ammo price set as 1.5X.

Useful to snipe moving targets at range due to high velocity. Likely to be the "go-to" round for heavy tanks and brawling tanks due to high pen and no damage pen at close range.

 

HEAT - gets boost in penetration, no loss of pen at range. -15% damage at all ranges. Shell velocity decreased. No normalization. Increased %chance to injure crew, decreased %chance to damage/destroy tank component. Ammo price set as 1.5X.

Useful to snipe stationary target at range due to maintained penetration value, -15% damage makes it less efficient than AP rounds in terms of DPM and overall damage potential.

 

HE - significantly lower penetration value, no loss of pen at range. +30% damage. Shell velocity decreased. No normalization. Increase %chance to injure crew, decreased %chance to damage/destroy tank component. Ammo price set as 0.8X.

Useful against low armored targets, also very useful for lower tiered tanks who fail to penetrate higher tiered vehicles (shoot the belly).

 

HEP/HESH - lower penetration than AP, but higher than HE, no loss of pen at range. +15% damage. Shell velocity decreased. No normalization. Increase %chance to injure crew, decreased %chance to damage/destroy tank component. Ammo price set as 0.9X.

 

Using such a model will require that ALL tanks can access all of these shells. By doing so, the "intuition" perk for loaders will become more valuable as well (switch the loaded shell depending on situation).



EdibleEmpire #54 Posted Apr 15 2018 - 03:11

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As others have made obvious: the ammo system as a whole is completely [edited]. Making premium ammo more expensive isn't going to help anything since it's basically needed for reliable penetration of the super heavies like the Type 5 and Maus. Do you absolutely need to use it to pen frontally? No. But realistically if the guy playing the super heavy isn't a potato, you're going to need the gold rounds to compete against his armor and not lose overall on trades.

Ophrys12 #55 Posted Apr 15 2018 - 03:18

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View PostEdibleEmpire, on Apr 14 2018 - 22:11, said:

As others have made obvious: the ammo system as a whole is completely [edited]. Making premium ammo more expensive isn't going to help anything since it's basically needed for reliable penetration of the super heavies like the Type 5 and Maus. Do you absolutely need to use it to pen frontally? No. But realistically if the guy playing the super heavy isn't a potato, you're going to need the gold rounds to compete against his armor and not lose overall on trades.

 

True, my solution to super heavies? massively nerf their turret traverse.

At tier 10 right now, fastest turret traverse is T57 heavy and AMX 50 B at 37.54º/sec. Maus and Type 5 have 16.69º and 18.77º, respectively. Reduce these values to 8.3º and 9.3º/sec. That ought to wreck them quite a lot.



Gang_Starr #56 Posted Apr 15 2018 - 03:23

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View PostSpectreHD, on Apr 14 2018 - 19:42, said:

 

Yeah what about the poor game design of screwing balance over for the large, slower tanks? I guess that is fine so that we can snipe heavies from the front with one of the worst accuracy guns on a medium tank at long range.

 

IMO that's fine, because most mediums have paper armor so the HTs dont even have to aim at all to damage them back let alone shoot gold.

My experience with this game:

Medium tank aims for a HT weakspot and bounces, HT turns his turret and snapshots the MT without aiming and does 600 damage. 

 

There are lots of things wrong with this game, and premium ammo spamming is a byproduct of bad game design. Accuracy mechanics need changes, maps need changes, arty needs changes, corridor meta needs changes.

 

Instead of changing premium ammo, what has to be fixed are the bad core game designs that cause the premium spam issue to begin with. Flanking a HT with your MT is impossible because there are 4 enemy TDs always camping their base and will kill you in 2 seconds if you try to flank.



Gang_Starr #57 Posted Apr 15 2018 - 03:25

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View PostSpectreHD, on Apr 14 2018 - 19:42, said:

 

I guess that is fine so that we can snipe heavies from the front with one of the worst accuracy guns on a medium tank at long range.

 

It's funny that you mentioned accuracy. Here's another LR vid on that

 



EdibleEmpire #58 Posted Apr 15 2018 - 03:43

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Honestly you know what? I don't care if they make the price of premium ammo much more expensive under one condition:

 

No more HE at tier 10. None. Zero. The Type 5 has to shoot AP. The 183 has to shoot AP.  Arty has to shoot AP and has to pen to do damage. If you're going to make the game harder, make it harder for everyone and not the people crying for the game to be made easier specifically for them.

 

The reality though is this premium nerf caters to the Russian and EU potato players. They don't like being penned or outplayed so WG will try to drastically limit the amount of premium fired. It's why the Maus, Type 5 got all sorts of buffs, why the Object 268 V4 has crazy armor and the smallest frontal weakspot so far on any tier 10 tank. 

 

At this point Wargaming Belarus needs to understand if they keep catering to the potato the game is going to die. The players they're catering to do not know what they want and nothing is going to satisfy them. There isn't going to be a point where they will say "wow, the game is balanced now". Their problem isn't that tanks lack armor or people are spamming premium. It's that they choose not to read the minimap. They choose not to learn how to angle armor on the tanks they play. When the game is 15 type 5 heavies against 15 type 5 heavies and everyone is spamming HE, they're not going to say "wow this is well balanced and fun".


Edited by EdibleEmpire, Apr 15 2018 - 03:49.


Sgt__Guffy #59 Posted Apr 15 2018 - 03:46

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View PostVooDooKobra, on Apr 12 2018 - 23:04, said:

so you want it pay to win then op?

 

I do wonder if pay to win players actually go the distance. It indicates impatience which is one of the worst attributes to have with this game. Let them have their fun. Either they well realize the futility of spending so much for very little return and put more effort in playing the game on a budget, or they will uninstall. I think it is more likely to be the latter.



Albinosmurfs #60 Posted Apr 15 2018 - 05:35

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Ok here we go. I think premium ammo is a good thing but I do like the trade offs for tier 10 mediums. Having ammo that can do 0 damage when it you fired standard ammo it would pen is a good thing. What I'm against is premium HE. There should be some downside even a small one besides cost. Let premium HE do less damage but a wider area. Something. Anything besides guaranteed more damage.





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