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My initial impression of the new italian tanks plus what is right and wrong about them

Italy Italian tanks

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I_brake_for_gnomes #1 Posted May 04 2018 - 19:05

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After three years of waiting, I am very thrilled to see an Italian tank in WOT. Of course, my interpretation of an Italian medium tank tech tree differs from what Wargamming (WG) has done. To me the biggest error was including 5 heavy tanks into the medium tech tree. By doing that it leaves no room for a future heavy tank tree line. But I have a fix for that.

 

Before I go on, I need to explain to people who don't know what the Italian tank name nomenclature actually means. The first letter explains the type and role of a tank. The "L" stands for "leggero" (light), the "M" stands for "medio" (medium) and "P" stands for "pesante" (heavy). The numbers in front of the slash mean the designated tonnage that the tank weighs. The numbers after the slash mean the year the tank was accepted by the Italian army.

 

So L6/40 means "light tank, 6-tons, 1940". M14/41 means "medium tank, 14-tons, 1941. P26/40 means "heavy tank, 26-tons, 1940." BTW, the P26/40 was accepted by the army for production in 1940 but due to technical difficulties, production didn't start until 1943. Notice that the P43 series of tanks do not have a year date of acceptance. That's because they were still in the prototype stage and had not been accepted for production prior to Italy's surrender in 1943.

 

Now that I have established the Italian nomenclature for their tank names, then it reason on how come WG calls these tanks medium tanks then? I don't know but I suspect that WG saw that their tank size and weight matches many of the medium tanks in the game. In real life, the M-series of tanks were the same size and weight as the other countries' light tanks. But the Italians used their M-series of tanks as their medium tanks. Their L-series of tanks, such as the L6/40 and the L3/35 tanks were used in the light tank role.

 

We will now use the German tanks as an example. During the early war years the main German medium tank was the PzKpfw IV whose weight ranged from 17,000 kg to 25,000 kg. It was supposed to be used in the heavy tank role but that was supplanted by the introduction of the Tiger I tank which weighed in at 57,000 kg. When the time came for a medium tank to replace the PzKpfw IV, the German's introduced the Panther D tank which weighed in at 44,800 kg. The Panther D is closer in weight to the Tiger then it is to the PzKpfw IV. The Germans used the Panther in the medium tank role even though it was very big and very heavy. So again you can not make the size and weight of a tank to be the only criteria on what classification to call a tank. WG should have called the pesante series as heavy tanks rather than as medium tanks.

 

Let's now fantasize that WG is going to take my recommendation and re-classify all of the pesante tanks into the heavy tank category. So what should the Italian medium tank tree should look like now?

Tier 1 Fiat 3000 -> Tier 2 M11/39 -> Tier 3 M14/41

 

at this point the tree splits into two branches: an Italian made tank branch and a German made tank branch

(Italian made) Tier 4 M15/41 -> Tier 5 M16/43 Sahariana

(German made) Tier 4 M22/41 -> Tier 5 P23/41

 

at this point the two branches merge again

Tier 6 P.45 TV Pantera -> Tier 7 M26 Ariete -> Tier 8 M47 -> Tier 9 Prototipo Standard B -> Tier 10 Progretto M40 mod 65

 

M11/39 -> this medium tank is inferior to the M14/41 in many ways but in real life acted as a bridge between the Fiat 3000 and the M14/41 tank. This is a true tier 2 tank and needs to be included

M16/43 -> this medium tank is based on the British Crusader tank which is placed at tier 5 in WOT.

M22/41 -> this medium tank is the Italian version of the German Pz III N tank. WOT has the E, J and K models and the not the N which makes this a unique tank

P23/41 -> this medium tank is the Italian version of the German Pz IV H tank. There are many key differences between the Italian and German versions including rate of fire, horsepower and gun depression, However the biggest visual difference is that while both versions had shielding around the turret, the Italian version did not have side skirting. The German version in WOT does have side skirting.

P.45 TV -> this medium tank is the Italian version of the German Panther D tank. In WOT, the Polish Pudel is the Panther G model while the German Panther is made up of parts from the Panther A and G models. Which makes this Panther D tank a unique tank.

M26 Ariete -> this medium tank is the Italian version of the American M26 Pershing. There are many key differences between the Ariete and the Pershing. However the biggest difference is that the Ariete has more armor than the Pershing.

M47 -> this medium tank is the Italian version of the American M47. There isn't a M47 in the game so this would be a unique tank.

 

One quick note about the P23/41 and the P.45 TV. Even though the Italians have classified them as pesante tanks, I put them into the medium tank tree since they are already classified in WOT as medium tanks. So I put them into my list of Italian medium tanks because of that.

 

Now how about an Italian heavy tank tree line.

Tier 1 Fiat 3000 -> Tier 2 Fiat 2000 -> Tier 3 P75 -> Tier 4 P26/40 -> Tier 5 P.43 -> Tier 6 P.43 bis -> Tier 7 P.43 ter -> Tier 8 P.44 Pantera -> Tier 9 Prototipo Standard B -> Tier 10 Progetto M40 mod. 65

 

The only two new additions would be the Fiat 2000 and the P75. If you ever tried looking up the Fiat 3000 or Italian tanks in general then you would have seen information on the Fiat 2000 so I don't need to discuss it. I do want to mention what the P75 is though. The P75 is the prototype tank for the P26/40 heavy tank.The P75 generally looks like the P26/40 but it has less armor and less weight. It originally was supposed to carry a 47mm gun but was upgraded to a 75mm L/18 howitzer. So to include the P75 at tier 3 then you need to remove the 47mm gun and Maybach HL 120 300 hp from the P26/40 and give those items to the P75.

 

Now some recommendations:

Tier 1 Fiat 3000 I like how this tank plays at tier 1 but there is one very important component of the Fiat 3000 that is missing. The machine gun. Italy built 100 Fiat 3000A tanks in 1921 to mount a dual 6.5mm Fiat machine gun. Then it built 52 Fiat 3000B tanks in 1930 to mount a 37mm L/40 Vickers-Terni tank gun. WOT has included the correct 37mm L/40 tank gun but there isn't a machine gun listed at all.

 

Other tanks in WOT that mount a machine gun is the French Renault FT, the Japanese Renault Otsu and the German Pz IC. Obviously the 6.5mm machine gun might be too light a gun for even tier 1. So I recommend maybe equipping it with either the 8mm Breda mod 38 machine gun or the 13.2mm Breda mod 31 heavy machine gun. The 8mm Breda was the standard tank machine for all of the Italian AFVs for that time period so having that as a tier 1 gun makes a lot of sense. The 13.2mm Breda was also found on some Italian vehicles so if the 8mm Breda is too light than maybe this gun is a good choice.

 

Tier 2 L6/40 I have had some good success playing this tank but the 20mm Breda mod 35 gun that it uses is not correct. In real life it uses that gun but how it operates in the game is way off. First, the gun is the 20mm Breda mod 35 dual purpose gun that the Italians used as a stand-alone AA gun or a gun that they used on AFVs in the dual purpose role. Secondly, the gun had a 12-round magazine versus the game's 8-round magazine. In the game you'll see 4 rounds on your display but when you shoot once your gun fires two rounds and then it pauses before you can shoot again. This is 100% incorrect to how the real gun operated and I have video proof. See the following video ->

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4qBhQIwcEU

To WG --> please fix how the gun shoots in the game... thank you.

 

Tier 2 M14/41 This tank needs to be one tier higher. First, this will allow the introduction at tier 2 of the very important tank, the M11/39. Secondly, the characteristics of this tank are on par of these tier 3 tanks -> Soviet T-70, Czech LT vz.38 and the Swedish Strv m/40L.

 

Tier 3 M15/42 This tank needs to be one tier higher. This was an improved M14/41 in all areas including speed, gun and armor. Think of the M14/41 and M15/42 as the Italian version of the American M3 Stuart and M5 Stuart. Other similar tier 4 tanks is the Swedish Lago, the Czech ST vz.39 and the Japanese Type 5 Ke-Ho.

 

There you go. My take on the new Italian tanks. If WG follows my recommendations on fixing the medium tank tree, then it will allow the inclusion of a future Italian heavy tank tree line. And it will allow the addition of the Fiat 2000 into a very logical place.

 

I hope you enjoyed reading this and I look forward to your comments.

 



Gunadie #2 Posted May 04 2018 - 19:19

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Wow you have lots of free time don't you!

Kamahl1234 #3 Posted May 04 2018 - 19:31

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If I'm wrong, isn't your suggestion "screw unique looking tanks, I want more clones!"?

 

The M47 is a combination with the M46 IIRC in-game (many tanks with variants are like this). The M26 is literally a Pershing. 

 

 

The L6/40's gun fires like that for balance reasons. Otherwise we'd have tanks like the French with insanely large autloader clips. That's bad for balance but historical. We prefer balance here, this isn't warthunder. 

 

 

 

Personal side-note. I rather enjoy that you assume a reader has done prior research into this new and exciting subject, and omitted any and all information on the Fiat 2000 with which you'd state your case, assuming the case states itself. Bravo on your, well, bravado. 

 

 

 

 

Another side note, and this one less mocking. Tank classes are different from nation to nation. The Panther was a medium but weighed as much as a heavy. It played medium tank roles in strategies. Similar to how the Italian mediums we have fit medium roles in terms of play, but are heavy enough and armored enough to play as pseudo-heavies when top tier with passable armor. But your heavy line suggestion is silly. In no way does the tier 8+ fit as heavies. They are mediums, regardless of what you think Italy wants to call them. Hell, the Pershing was a "heavy tank" purely for propaganda reasons, when the US lacked a new fieldable heavy tank for WWII. 


Edited by Kamahl1234, May 04 2018 - 19:35.


I_brake_for_gnomes #4 Posted May 04 2018 - 20:10

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@ Gunadie -> #1) I am a computer software analyst so inspecting product, etc is what I do; #2) I have a keen interest in military history especially about the Italians so I have a lot of information in my archive about that nation; #3) I drafted this a while ago but I waited until the release of 1.0.1 before I said my say. I wanted to play the tanks and see what my perspective was before I said anything.

 

@ Kamahl1234 -> "If I'm wrong, isn't your suggestion "screw unique looking tanks, I want more clones!"?" -> If a clone tank, such as the French M4A2 tank in which they used 277 of them during WW2, fills an important part of their tank history then I say yes. Then why not include them in WOT.... if there is a legitimate reason for having it. However the French used only 1 M4A3E2 tank in WW2 and I would be against WOT introducing the tank into the game because it is not significant. But that is not what I am saying here.

 

All tanks in a series were different enough internally and externally from each other to get it's own name designation. Otherwise the tank would have been produced using a different lot number. My Italian versions were unique enough from the German or American versions to be considered unique.

 

Take the Pz III F which is in WOT and compare it to the Pz III N (not in WOT) which I am proposing to be the Italian M22/41. 

Main Gun (standard) -> IIIJ: 50mm KwK 38 or 50mm KwK 39; IIIN: 75mm KwK 37

Main Gun (WOT) -> IIIJ: 20mm Flak 38, 37mm KwK 36, 50mm KwK 38, 50mm KwK 39 and 75mm KwK 37

Hull Armor (WOT) -> IIIJ: 50/30/50; (standard) -> IIIJ: 50/30/50; IIIN: 50+20mm plate/30/50

Turret Armor (WOT) -> IIIJ: 30/30/30; (standard)-> IIIJ: 30/30/30; IIIN: 57/30/30

 

Every tank model, whether it is a Crusader Mk I or a Crusader Mk II, is unique enough to been given a unique nomenclature. And each of my German or American made tanks that I list here are different enough that I think they could be called unique tanks. You have to remember that after the war the Italians relied heavily on American tanks to fill their army needs. So having a M47 or a M26, in which both models were important parts of the Italian army, is something that needed to be included into an Italian tank tree.

 

M47 has some internal and external differences to be different from the M46. The M46 in the game does not have any M47 components. Turret is different and the tracks are different and the body has minor differences. Plus the Italians owned close 2,000 M47s.... which is significant enough to be in WOT.

 

M26 Ariete is the Italian version of the US M26 Pershing. Here is what I mean by that the Ariete has better armor:

* Hull Armor -> (Pershing in WOT) 101/76/50; (Ariete) 163/76/51

* Turret Armor -> (Pershing in WOT) 101/76/76 (stock); 127/76/63 (upgraded); (Ariete) 114/76/76

 

L6/40 20mm L/65 dual-purpose gun -> I really don't care if the gun has a 12-round clip, a 8-round clip or a 4-round clip. I just want WG to have the gun shoot the way it is suppose to. WG has gotten pinged in the past on not being very historically accurate regarding their tanks. And it is true. There are many inconsistencies with their tanks. I am a big fan of Italian military history so I guess I would want WG to try and be better at presenting these tanks then they are.

 

Thanks Kamahl for your kind words.



_Katyusha___ #5 Posted May 04 2018 - 20:44

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Italian tech tree in WOT is very dissapointing. I would love to have italian variants of foreign designs rather than more fantasy [edited], this is just a sad Czech dejavú.

 

I will only keep the tier II light in hope of a CV33 prize tank in the future, and P26/40. No reason to go further.



cartires #6 Posted May 04 2018 - 20:59

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Interesting and informative!

I_brake_for_gnomes #7 Posted May 04 2018 - 23:44

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@ Katuysha -> the CV33 or the L3/33 series of tanks, or in reality called tankettes, are very interesting. During the 1930s the Italian army didn't have much money to design and build tanks to compete against, what they perceive as their main future threat, France. By their own experience during World War One, they truly thought that the next battlefield was going to take place in the French and Italian Alps. So they focused with what little money they had for R&D into a small tank that could handle small roads and mountain trails.

 

They bought some Carden-Lloyd tankettes from the British and thought they were the perfect answer so they upgraded the design and started building the CV33 which later on was renamed the L3/33 in 1938. Initially it had only one 6.5mm Fiat modello 14 machine gun. This was later on upgraded to dual 8mm Fiat modello 14/35 machine guns. 1,508 were built for the Italian army between 1933 and 1935.

 

The next model, the CV35 which later became the L3/35 in 1938, was of course an upgraded version. It also was armed with a dual 8mm Fiat or Breda machine guns. Export models were equipped with a 13.2mm Breda modello 1931 heavy machine gun rather then the dual 8mm guns. And some of the CV33 and CV35 had their guns replaced with a 20mm Solothurn anti-tank rifle. 300 were built in 1936.

 

In 1937 200 CV33 and CV35s were converted into the L3/38 which mounted a 13.2mm Breda modello 1931.

 

1,216 of these tankettes were produced for export: Afghanistan, Austria, Bolivia, Brazil, Bulgaria, China, Croatia, Hungary, Iraq and Spain.

 

Word of caution. I've seen production numbers differ from one source to the other so don't take what I said is the absolute correct figures. However it would make an outstanding tier 2 tank in WOT. It is a small little thing that can punch really hard especially with that 13.2mm Breda heavy machine gun.



wolf_1903 #8 Posted May 06 2018 - 12:09

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Hi,

 

The P.44 pantera gets amo racked, tracked and motor shot out every time i get hit by a t9-10 tank on the front, yes, all 3 in ONE SHOT!!! It makes it unplayable.

 

Anybody else had this?



Genarelbetrayus #9 Posted May 06 2018 - 20:14

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All you had to do was type whats wrong with Italian tanks.... there Italian that is all.

john_smith_366 #10 Posted May 08 2018 - 10:28

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I´m playing the p.43 bis now. I´m not the worst player but this cake box makes me trouble. The gun plinks only to other tanks and the mobility... is not really present.

The lower ones where ... naja not really good or fun to play but playable but in the P.43 bis is for my opinion a really bad crap box.

I hope, i could somehow go over it.

I also own a Progetto and this is a crazy Tank. If you want to snipe, you snipe. If you want to fight directly, you could fight. If you want to play tactical, you could do it. I really really hope the higher tiers of the italian line are nearly so good as this one.

 

After some upgrades for the tank i can say it is going better. As higher you get as better the tank is playable.


Edited by john_smith_366, May 10 2018 - 07:30.


I_brake_for_gnomes #11 Posted May 30 2018 - 18:05

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I recommend doing the following:

* P26/40 -> use the 75/34 gun and use nothing but HE ammo with some gold rounds for emergencies

* P43 -> use the 75/46 gun and use nothing but HE ammo with some gold rounds for emergencies.

* P43bis -> since you are forced to use the terrible 75/50 Skoda gun until you can get the top gun, unfortunately the 75/50 HE round is useless in this tank. Try going for the 90/42 as soon as you can and don't worry about researching anything else unless you have to.

 

When you get the 90/42, the AP rounds will do nothing in tier 7 and tier 8 games because the AP round is so poor, I think the HE round is the better alternative because while the PEN is only 45, it does an average damage of 320 HP. Which is great against a lot of medium and light tanks. And will devastate SPGs.

 

* P43ter -> the stock gun is the 90/42 so you should be used to using it by now since it is also on the P43bis. The top gun is the 90/53 which is unfortunate since the Italians were planning on installing a bigger 90mm gun on this tank. To me this looks like a money maker for WG since against tier 8 and 9 tanks you will bounce a lot of shots. Which might force you to use a lot of gold rounds. BTW, even though the tier 7 Tiger I carries the more powerful 88mm KwK 43 gun, the German 88mm Kwk 36 and 43's HE ammo is worse than the Italian 90/53.

* WOT HE round stats

--> 88mm KwK 36 -> HE PEN = 44; HE DAMAGE = 270 HP

--> 88mm KwK 43 -> HE PEN = 44; HE DAMAGE = 295 HP

--> 90/53 -> HE PEN = 45; HE DAMAGE = 320 HP

So maybe the best load out with the 90/53 is again using HE ammo (with some gold rounds for emergencies) since the AP rounds perform so poorly.

 

Also, do not research the top engine in any Italian tank. This engine is the stock engine for the next higher tier tank. For example, the stock engine in the tier 5 tank is the top engine in the tier 4 tank. So just by researching the next tank will automatically give you the top engine in the lower tiered tank.

 

The P26/40, when it was in prototype form, was tested with a 75mm howitzer which was similar to the 75mm howitzer that the American M8 HMC carries in the game. The P43 bis was designed to have as its main gun, the 90mm L/53 (90/53), which was slightly superior to the Tiger I's 88. Beyond that, which I am assuming that this might be the P43ter, the tank was looked at carrying a 90mm L/71 (90/71) and a 105mm L/25 (105/25) gun.

 

It would be nice if the P26/40 was offered a 75mm howitzer. And the P43 series of tanks come with a 105mm howitzer. And the P43ter comes with the 90/71 gun.

 

In WOT, the P43bis carries the 75/50 and the 90/42. And the P43ter carries the 90/42 and the 90/53. The 105/25 gun is very similar to the German 105mm used in the game's StuG IIIG and Hetzer.

--> 105/25 real life stats

* AP ammo -> 510 m/s; 89mm pen at 100m

* HEAT ammo -> 390 m/s; 121mm pen at all distances



DVK9 #12 Posted May 31 2018 - 22:31

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TL;DR Dont care

 







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