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A KV-5 Fiasco Breakdown. Where do we go from here.

KV-5 Pref-MM changes

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24_inch_pythons #1 Posted May 25 2018 - 15:07

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 Everybody, I think, has had a very understandable emotional reaction to the news of the KV-5 changes. Let's try to set emotion aside and look at the situation that Wargaming says it is in and then, without emotion, see what the best way forward might be.

 

 Let's first look at Wargaming's claim that all Preferential MM tanks, not just the KV-5, screw up the MM. People are skeptical of this claim. What we know is that Wargaming has claimed this for years now. Long before 3-5-7 was a thing Wargaming was talking about how Pref MM tanks were screwing up the MM. In fact, their first try at fixing this was to not sell Pref MM tanks anymore (uh-huh, right Wargaming, you did great at that - and have only your greed to blame). So why the skepticism? Seriously, why would Wargaming remove some Preferential MM premium tanks from the store and be talking about this for years, multiple years if this wasn't an issue, why? Think of this, for every tank with Preferential MM that wants to get into a battle there are up to twenty-nine regular MM tanks that have their MM screwed up to accommodate one Preferential MM tank. That sounds to me like Preferential MM tanks have a vastly oversized effect on the MM. So, I for one believe Wargaming that it's a problem. Now, what do we do about it?

 

 Wargaming's fix now is to buff the Preferential MM tanks enough to make them regular tanks that see +/-2 MM. Their current plan is to give players the option of keeping the buffed tank or to pay a price of no more than 2,000 gold to "upgrade" to a different, regular Premium tank. This is where Wargaming runs into problems and this is where we, their business partners, need to be willing to work with them. Sometimes we find ourselves in bad situations where nobody is going to be happy, but if we work together to negotiate an outcome that is the least bad for everybody than in a way we have won, all of us, Wargaming and its customers. 

 Some of the complaints about the implementation of the fix:

1. (And this is the biggest area that there can be no reconciliation on) People bought Preferential MM tanks specifically because they didn't want to fight Tier X tanks. If we're going to move forward you have to give this up. If Preferential MM is a problem than there is literally no way to solve it without getting rid of Preferential MM.

2. The "upgrade" for 2k gold is about the stupidest thing Wargaming could think of. Asking people to pay more money after they feel that they have been taken advantage of. Wargaming needs to give it up and apologize for making this an "option".

3. Players who demand a full cash refund or they'll "sue Wargaming" or "quit playing" or "never spend another penny". Now you're being just as unreasonable as Wargaming asking you to pay 2k gold to "upgrade" to another tank. First off, if you tell a business that you are done doing business with them or you are going to sue them, then they have literally no reason to try to help you or work with you in anyway on anything. Secondly, many people have probably played the tank, most people probably many, many times. Wargaming has always been clear they don't offer refunds on in-game goods that have been used. No matter what Wargaming does to the KV-5, you don't get a cash refund when you've played the KV-5 two-thousand times. The vast majority of players, I would be willing to bet, have more than gotten their fill of the KV-5 for one reason or another and have moved on to other tanks.

 

 If we can't get our cash back and we aren't going to spend 2k gold to "upgrade" to a different tank then how will we agree to move forward with this bad situation that we all find ourselves in?

1. Obviously, is to keep the new KV-5. Undoubtedly some people will be happy with this outcome.

2. A full gold refund of the tank at the highest gold value it ever had in the premium shop. Some people paid more than 7,500 gold equivalent. Some people will undoubtedly be happy with this outcome.

3. Not everyone will agree to #1 or #2 above, what would be acceptable? Gold and premium time? A gifted new premium especially and exclusively for people who fell into this? 

 

 Let's try to get over the emotion and think about what we want out of this to make ourselves content that we have partnered with Wargaming and come up with a solution that may not be perfect, it may not have been everything we wanted, but it get's us through this as best it can. 

 - No cash back

 - No spending more money for "upgrades"

 

BTW, I'm a collector. I don't buy tanks for the Preferential MM so I couldn't care less if my Preferential MM tanks lose that status. Generally I'll be happy because I pretty much hate all my Preferential MM tanks... not the FCM, though.



enya1ius #2 Posted May 25 2018 - 15:18

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+1, I do think its ridiculous that WG thought that its player base was going to be fine with paying extra to "upgrade" when the issue came about from their end. but that being said I think this is a fairly honest and logical statement that is well after the kneejerk period of the article being posted.

 



Silversound #3 Posted May 25 2018 - 15:38

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The problem for me is that I have no need for more gold, and I already own most of the premium tanks.

 

So I don't really have a viable exit strategy for this situation.

 

In the end, I have to accept that I was silly enough to buy almost all of WG's products knowing they were not really mine to keep.



24_inch_pythons #4 Posted May 25 2018 - 15:41

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View PostSilversound, on May 25 2018 - 08:38, said:

The problem for me is that I have no need for more gold, and I already own most of the premium tanks.

 

So I don't really have a viable exit strategy for this situation.

 

In the end, I have to accept that I was silly enough to buy almost all of WG's products.

 

What about #3 a free, special premium that they make just for people who fell into this. Wouldn't that interest you?

Silversound #5 Posted May 25 2018 - 15:50

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There was mention in a QnA long ago that spoke to this.

 

The guy from WG said they had a working concept on how to award whales.

 

I stopped holding my breath...

 

I think WG is greatly overlooking the psychological impact this has on a guy like me who used to readily open up his wallet.

 

Now, I'm making moves in my personal life to transition away from WoT in general.

 

Still love the game. Still happy to run Praxis. Just not running to the premium shop to spend $50 every week.

 

Gonna drop that money into swings on the stock market instead.

 

At least that way I can buy low, sell high.



Devildog8 #6 Posted May 25 2018 - 15:53

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View Post24_inch_pythons, on May 25 2018 - 08:41, said:

 

What about #3 a free, special premium that they make just for people who fell into this. Wouldn't that interest you?

 

Maybe the IS-5 ( Object 730 ) never owned it not sure if its a viable replacement.  I could be way off base

WIZD #7 Posted May 25 2018 - 15:58

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View Post24_inch_pythons, on May 25 2018 - 15:07, said:

"Think of this, for every tank with Preferential MM that wants to get into a battle there are up to twenty-nine regular MM tanks that have their MM screwed up to accommodate one Preferential MM tank"

Same can be said for every tier 10. PM isn't the issue it's the combo 3-5-7 and +-2. Change it to +-1 MM to 5/10 15/15 and buff the PM vehicles the whole issue goes away. Why won't WG change it? 10's will lose profits and Xp due to the loss of their constant supply of cha'ching.


Edited by WIZD, May 25 2018 - 16:03.


Devildog8 #8 Posted May 25 2018 - 16:02

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View PostWIZD, on May 25 2018 - 08:58, said:

Same can be said for every tier 10. PM isn't the issue it's the combo 3-5-7 and +-2. Change it to +-1 buff the PM vehicles the whole issue goes away. Why won't WG change it? 10's will lose profits and Xp due to the loss of their constant supply of cha'ching.

 

I agree, I have always thought the +1/-1 MM would be the best way to go, be nice to try it, see how it works

Vampiresbane #9 Posted May 25 2018 - 16:08

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OP, it's not just that WG HQ is asking us to pay more gold to change to a different premium, but that they're lying about the reason why.  There's a post floating around  in these forums that took data from vbaddict in the last 30 days and it showed that less than 2% of all tier 8 tanks played during that time period were pref mm tanks.  It was something like 1.4%.

 

Less than 2%.

 

And somehow that's gravely messing up their matchmaker?  Just doesn't pass the straight face test when the only portion of the 3/5/7, 5/10, 15 that it messes up is the 3 10's, 5 9's, and 7 8's.  Pref mm tier 8 tanks still can fit into 5 9's, 10 8's, still can fit into 15 8's, still can fit into 3 9's, 5 8's, 7 7's, still can fit into 5 8's 10 7's, and still can fit into 3 8's, 5 7's, 7 6's.
 

That's just 1/6 versions of mm battles that tier 8 prem mm can't fit into.  <17% of available tier mixes.


 

With <2% of pref mm tanks.
 

Sorry, I'm just not buying the koolaid.



24_inch_pythons #10 Posted May 25 2018 - 16:11

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View PostVampiresbane, on May 25 2018 - 09:08, said:

OP, it's not just that WG HQ is asking us to pay more gold to change to a different premium, but that they're lying about the reason why.  There's a post floating around in these forums that took data from vbaddict in the last 30 days and it showed that less than 2% of all tier 8 tanks played during that time period were pref mm tanks.  It was something like 1.4%.

 

Less than 2%.

 

And somehow that's gravely messing up their matchmaker?  Just doesn't pass the straight face test when the only portion of the 3/5/7, 5/10, 15 that it messes up is the 3 10's, 5 9's, and 7 8's.  Pref mm tier 8 tanks still can fit into 5 9's, 10 8's, still can fit into 15 8's, still can fit into 3 9's, 5 8's, 7 7's, still can fit into 5 8's 10 7's, and still can fit into 3 8's, 5 7's, 7 6's.
 

That's just 1/6 versions of mm battles that tier 8 prem mm can't fit into.  <17% of available tier mixes.


 

With <2% of pref mm tanks.
 

Sorry, I'm just not buying the koolaid.

 

1 Pref MM tank screws up the MM for up to 29 regular tanks.

OseanTanker #11 Posted May 25 2018 - 16:11

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If the MM prioritized 5/10 over 3/5/7, then a lot of problems would fix themselves. As it stands, it doesn't matter what WG does with Pref MM tanks. Everything there are 6 tier tens in queue, MM will try and find 14 tier eights to cram with them.

Nonamanadus #12 Posted May 25 2018 - 16:29

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View PostSilversound, on May 25 2018 - 14:38, said:

The problem for me is that I have no need for more gold, and I already own most of the premium tanks.

 

In the end, I have to accept that I was silly enough to buy almost all of WG's products knowing they were not really mine to keep.

 

Fool me once (Mutant) shame on you.

Fool me twice (Pref) shame on me.

 

Well actually no.....it sets a precedent that no premium is safe from manipulation and that I will have to pay for upgrades if you break my premiums? I don't think so Tim...

 

Wargaming is cutting their own throats becausd their reputation is going further and further down the drain. Who wants to do business with a company that is not trustworthy?

 

I don't.



JE_Deschain #13 Posted May 25 2018 - 16:31

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I've been out of the game for a number of years, and after just coming back this is what I was greeted with.

 

To be honest, I've played the KV5 in a tier X game before my friends and I knew what Pref MM really was. It sucked, but that is expected. However, give the KV5 the buffs it needs to be viable at Tier X, and badda-bing, I'd be down. I love the T34 most, and have often wished the KV5 was closer in power level to the T34. I even think the Mutant would be viable with certain buffs.

 

However, it's my other tanks I worry about. The Pz B2, the E25, FCM, etc. The FCM needs real armor to be viable at +2, the E25 needs better pen, and I'll be super pissed if they take the only good thing about the PzB2 away. That little dude would get stomped by almost any tier V tank in the game.

 

Long story short, I think they're going down the wrong road with the KV5 because it's play style is not dependent on pref MM... a few buffs and it'll be good to go. Other PrefMM tanks, though, they'll basically need a whole rework (and I don't see how some of them can be even close to historical and also competitive in the game).

 

My .$02


Edited by JE_Deschain, May 25 2018 - 16:32.


Vampiresbane #14 Posted May 25 2018 - 16:47

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View Post24_inch_pythons, on May 25 2018 - 15:11, said:

 

1 Pref MM tank screws up the MM for up to 29 regular tanks.

 

Your statement oversimplifies the issue.  That 1 pref mm tank doesn't really mess it up for 29 tanks.  All the tier 8 and tier 9 tanks of those 29 tanks listed may have only been in queue for 10 secs.  That's up to 23 tanks that got +1/-1 mm because you queue'd.  I'd wager those players would much rather play +1/-1 vs 8's and 9's than be in a battle vs 8,9, and 10's.

 

Do yourself a favor.  Get a stopwatch.

1. Click battle in a tier 8.

2. Record the time to get in.

3. Click battle in a perf tier 8.

4. Record the time to get in.

5. Click battle in a tier 10.

6. Record the time to get in.

 

Now compare all three.  I'd be willing to bet 5g that the order of longest queue times are: tier 10, tier 8 pref, tier 8.  Now compare the raw times for the pref 8 to the reg 8.  Anecdotally, I'd reason your reg tier 8 tanks take anywhere from 10 seconds to 45 seconds to find a match during prime time.  Your pref 8 tanks probably take anywhere from 30 secs to 90 seconds to find a match during prime time.

 

Now do you think most players would rather keep their pref mm tanks and deal with a minute longer queue?  I believe so.  I would and still do.  I still play my WZ-111, 112, and Super Pershing.  Having pref mm is why the majority of us bought those tanks to begin with.



24_inch_pythons #15 Posted May 25 2018 - 17:12

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View PostVampiresbane, on May 25 2018 - 09:47, said:

 

Your statement oversimplifies the issue.  That 1 pref mm tank doesn't really mess it up for 29 tanks.  All the tier 8 and tier 9 tanks of those 29 tanks listed may have only been in queue for 10 secs.  That's up to 23 tanks that got +1/-1 mm because you queue'd.  I'd wager those players would much rather play +1/-1 vs 8's and 9's than be in a battle vs 8,9, and 10's.

 

Do yourself a favor.  Get a stopwatch.

1. Click battle in a tier 8.

2. Record the time to get in.

3. Click battle in a perf tier 8.

4. Record the time to get in.

5. Click battle in a tier 10.

6. Record the time to get in.

 

Now compare all three.  I'd be willing to bet 5g that the order of longest queue times are: tier 10, tier 8 pref, tier 8.  Now compare the raw times for the pref 8 to the reg 8.  Anecdotally, I'd reason your reg tier 8 tanks take anywhere from 10 seconds to 45 seconds to find a match during prime time.  Your pref 8 tanks probably take anywhere from 30 secs to 90 seconds to find a match during prime time.

 

Now do you think most players would rather keep their pref mm tanks and deal with a minute longer queue?  I believe so.  I would and still do.  I still play my WZ-111, 112, and Super Pershing.  Having pref mm is why the majority of us bought those tanks to begin with.

 

 Wargaming is saying that the way the MM works it takes an abnormally large # of Tier IX tanks out of the queue to match up with the pref Tier VIII's. I don't know why it does it that way... but that's what they say it does. So instead of having enough Tier IX tanks to make a 5 tier X and 10 Tier IX match it now has to make a 3-5-7 with Tier VIII's, lowering the number of top tier Tier VIII battles and increasing the number of battles that regular Tier VIII tanks have to face Tier X. Furthermore, the other Tier VIII tanks that wind up in a battle with the Pref MM are apparently more likely to be fighting Tier IX because of the way the MM works. So, for Regular Tier VIII tanks this means less Tier VIII max battles all around because of Pref MM, more Tier IX and X because of Pref MM.

 According to Wargaming: "It takes more time and computations for the tool to balance them properly, which extends queuing time. This is what happens next: the matchmaker starts grabbing an excessive number of Tier IX tanks to fill up team rosters for preferential Premiums, so they become deficient when it comes to forming teams for Tier X machines. The matchmaker then looks for something to fill the gaps for Tier X’s, and look who’s here. Hello, Tier VIII’s! Come here, little fellas."



ThexHellion #16 Posted May 25 2018 - 17:14

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View Post24_inch_pythons, on May 25 2018 - 15:11, said:

 

1 Pref MM tank screws up the MM for up to 29 regular tanks.

 

The issue with that to really be true and proven though would mean there is an over abundance of games with only tier 8's and 9's or even better just tier 8 and below but that just isn't true and the game is clear having no issues putting all the tier 8's at the bottom of the current 357 system which is the default format to 5,10 which it only does if i cannot produce 357 effectively

Edited by ThexHellion, May 25 2018 - 17:17.


24_inch_pythons #17 Posted May 25 2018 - 17:17

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View PostThexHellion, on May 25 2018 - 10:14, said:

 

The issue with that to really be true and proven though would mean there is an over abundance of games with only tier 8's and 9's or even better just tier 8 and below but that just isn't true and the game is clear having no issues putting all the tier 8's at the bottom of the current 357 system

 

It's more clearly explained in the post above you.

DVK9 #18 Posted May 25 2018 - 17:27

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View PostJE_Deschain, on May 25 2018 - 09:31, said:

I've been out of the game for a number of years, and after just coming back this is what I was greeted with.

 

To be honest, I've played the KV5 in a tier X game before my friends and I knew what Pref MM really was. It sucked, but that is expected. However, give the KV5 the buffs it needs to be viable at Tier X, and badda-bing, I'd be down. I love the T34 most, and have often wished the KV5 was closer in power level to the T34. I even think the Mutant would be viable with certain buffs.

 

However, it's my other tanks I worry about. The Pz B2, the E25, FCM, etc. The FCM needs real armor to be viable at +2, the E25 needs better pen, and I'll be super pissed if they take the only good thing about the PzB2 away. That little dude would get stomped by almost any tier V tank in the game.

 

Long story short, I think they're going down the wrong road with the KV5 because it's play style is not dependent on pref MM... a few buffs and it'll be good to go. Other PrefMM tanks, though, they'll basically need a whole rework (and I don't see how some of them can be even close to historical and also competitive in the game).

 

My .$02

I bought the B-2 just because of the 4/4 pref. It doesnt have the armor or gun to fight at Tier 4 alone let alone at tiers 5,6. I sold my FCM because why advertise a medium as a heavy tank? No friggin armor so it cant fight toe to toe with a lite tank. We paid good money for our prems. I bought mine for the pref MM not because they were macho POS. I get the Waffle and you give me a friggin POS grille with less armor but its faster...

 



Almighty_Johnson #19 Posted May 25 2018 - 17:31

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If this whole issue is because WG claims the Pref MM tanks screw up the MM, just drop them to Tier 7 and leave them completely alone. (after all they were designed to be a half tier worse than a regular tank anyhow and now are power creeped into irrelevance.  Then they don't lose any stats, keep the same MM they always had (never seeing above Tier 9), and nobody complains or loses out on something they paid for.

 

They're vastly over complicating this.  All this poop-storm over JUST the KV5.....   How much more of a revolt will there be when they also repeat this with all the other Pref MM tanks?  The Type 59 that so many people spent hundreds of $$$$ on in the Christmas boxes?  The Super Pershing?  The IS6?  

 

 



Vampiresbane #20 Posted May 25 2018 - 17:34

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View PostAlmighty_Johnson, on May 25 2018 - 16:31, said:

If this whole issue is because WG claims the Pref MM tanks screw up the MM, just drop them to Tier 7 and leave them completely alone. (after all they were designed to be a half tier worse than a regular tank anyhow and now are power creeped into irrelevance.  Then they don't lose any stats, keep the same MM they always had (never seeing above Tier 9), and nobody complains or loses out on something they paid for.

 

They're vastly over complicating this.  All this poop-storm over JUST the KV5.....   How much more of a revolt will there be when they also repeat this with all the other Pref MM tanks?  The Type 59 that so many people spent hundreds of $$$$ on in the Christmas boxes?  The Super Pershing?  The IS6? 

 

 

 

If a change HAS to be made, sure, fine, drop them to tier 7, maybe alter their HP pool, but as far as I'm concerned, there really is no need for a change.  Leave those pref MM tanks as is.  Buff them a little bit so they are again 7.5 instead of the 7.1 or 7.2 most of them feel like.

I think WG HQ is fixing something that isn't necessarily broken.  The problem is that these pref mm tanks are somewhat powercreeped; that's the major issue as far as I see it.






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