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A KV-5 Fiasco Breakdown. Where do we go from here.

KV-5 Pref-MM changes

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KingofDragons #21 Posted May 25 2018 - 17:38

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I paid real money for the KV-5 but lets say i payed 7500 Gold  Wouldn't the new updated KV-5 be worth more once updated ? So either they think player base is dumb or they are actually stupid..

 

My take is they are stupid.. You piss people off by taking something away and breaking our trust and now , adding insult to injury , you want to take more instead of apologizing and making things right...

 

I'm happy the community is standing up to this B.S..

 

I'll be keeping my KV-5 either way and just use it on Frontline..



FineousOrlon #22 Posted May 25 2018 - 17:38

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View Post24_inch_pythons, on May 25 2018 - 16:11, said:

 

1 Pref MM tank screws up the MM for up to 29 regular tanks.

 

Yeah, considering how long pref MM tanks have been around, I am not buying this.  WG is unable to prioritize things in their MM so that 2 valued commodities, pref MM, and the long-term loyalty of customers who have bought pref MM tanks, are adequately managed.

 

Also, 29 tanks potentially mess at least 1 pref MM tank's main selling point in any match with at least 1 pref MM tank.  A stark foundational statement can still have 2 ways to be presented.

 

edit: removed the last phrase, which was only 1/3 of a sentence.

 

 


Edited by FineousOrlon, May 25 2018 - 17:42.


FineousOrlon #23 Posted May 25 2018 - 17:41

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View PostVampiresbane, on May 25 2018 - 16:47, said:

 

Your statement oversimplifies the issue.  That 1 pref mm tank doesn't really mess it up for 29 tanks.  All the tier 8 and tier 9 tanks of those 29 tanks listed may have only been in queue for 10 secs.  That's up to 23 tanks that got +1/-1 mm because you queue'd.  I'd wager those players would much rather play +1/-1 vs 8's and 9's than be in a battle vs 8,9, and 10's.

.......

 

Now do you think most players would rather keep their pref mm tanks and deal with a minute longer queue?  I believe so.  I would and still do.  I still play my WZ-111, 112, and Super Pershing.  Having pref mm is why the majority of us bought those tanks to begin with.

 

OMG, yes.  Upvote incoming!

 



RageSimulationInProgress #24 Posted May 25 2018 - 21:55

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Mr. Python sits back and makes his compelling argument then reveals his biased position at the end. You don't care about pref MM then what do you hope to gain with this thread?

 

You sir are as full of crap as WG. Probably work for them too... And if not then stop defending wargaming for treating us like IDIOTS which is the ACTUAL ISSUE.

 

They can't figure out how to make a decent MM algorithm or they don't want to but they are happy to blame everything and everyone else for the problems.

(This Includes their community contributors who have been blamed by WG for making customers notice bad things about their games.) 

 

HELLO. EARTH TO EVERYONE! WG=SCUM

 

STOP DEFENDING SCUM 24 inch python you didn't even notice the COMPLETE BS in WG's article did you?

 

 


Edited by RageSimulationInProgress, May 26 2018 - 12:05.


24_inch_pythons #25 Posted May 25 2018 - 22:50

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View PostRageSimulationInProgress, on May 25 2018 - 14:55, said:

Mr. Python sits back and makes his compelling argument then reveals his biased position at the end. You don't care about pref MM then what do you hope to gain with this thread?

 

You sir are as full of crap as WG. Probably work for them too... And if not then stop defending wargaming for treating us like IDIOTS which is the ACTUAL ISSUE.

 

They can't figure out how to make a decent MM algorithm or they don't want to but they are happy to blame everything and everyone else for the problems.

(This Includes their community contributors who have been blamed by WG for making customers notice bad things about their games.) 

 

HELLO. EARTH TO EVERYONE! WG=SCUM

 

STOP DEFENDING SCUM 24 inch python (1 inch brain) you didn't even notice the COMPLETE BS in WG's article did you?

 

 

 

But what if their claim isn't [edited]. Why would they make all this up. Why have they been talking about Preferential MM tanks screwing up the matchmaker for years, multiple years? They were talking about how pref tanks screwed up matchmaker like three years ago.

RageSimulationInProgress #26 Posted May 26 2018 - 00:22

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The Match Maker Algorithm is the problem and if they ACTUALLY WANTED TO FIX THE GAME it would also be the solution, think about it would it not be easier to fix that then changing all of these pref mm tanks and trying to "balance" them all? YES IT WOULD. But that is not what wargaming wants. I know it. WE ALL KNOW IT.

 

They are getting exactly what they want when people believe they are genuinely trying to fix the MM with this little idea of theirs.

 

P.S. Here's a good question if they are genuine about this then why are they trying EXTRA hard to sell these pref mm tanks right now instead of doing the right thing and pulling them out of the store until they figure out what they are doing...?


Edited by RageSimulationInProgress, May 26 2018 - 00:33.


Stonecoldelf #27 Posted May 26 2018 - 04:48

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Yeah, this one is all on Match Maker. I think the ADULT solution would be to fix match maker.  No one would be butt hurt then.  Maybe the Unicums who love farming hapless -2 should take the hit on this one and we can move to a -1/+1 system.

Robert_Skera #28 Posted May 26 2018 - 10:15

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View PostStonecoldelf, on May 26 2018 - 03:48, said:

Yeah, this one is all on Match Maker. I think the ADULT solution would be to fix match maker.  No one would be butt hurt then.  Maybe the Unicums who love farming hapless -2 should take the hit on this one and we can move to a -1/+1 system.

 

Problem is you would still be bad in a -0/+0 MM.  Baddies are going to get rolled no matter what the MM does.  Ive rolled the T9 portion of an enemy team in a KV-5 while the rest of my team, T9's included, died to the enemy T8's.

 

Tiers are not what is broken with MM, inconsistent player skill is.  Player stats need to be accounted for in the MM if they aren't already.


Edited by Robert_Skera, May 26 2018 - 10:18.


24_inch_pythons #29 Posted May 26 2018 - 12:14

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View PostRageSimulationInProgress, on May 25 2018 - 17:22, said:

The Match Maker Algorithm is the problem and if they ACTUALLY WANTED TO FIX THE GAME it would also be the solution, think about it would it not be easier to fix that then changing all of these pref mm tanks and trying to "balance" them all? YES IT WOULD. But that is not what wargaming wants. I know it. WE ALL KNOW IT.

 

They are getting exactly what they want when people believe they are genuinely trying to fix the MM with this little idea of theirs.

 

P.S. Here's a good question if they are genuine about this then why are they trying EXTRA hard to sell these pref mm tanks right now instead of doing the right thing and pulling them out of the store until they figure out what they are doing...?

 

 You're right, of course. They should stop selling Pref MM premiums. They should have done that three years ago when they came out publicly that Pref MM tanks were causing problems with the MM. I addressed that in the first post of the thread. As to why I think it's happening... I think that like any company Wargaming probably has different departments in charge of different areas with very poor control overhead. So I assume that whatever department is in charge of the MM has no control over what is being sold in the Premium shop. And the department that is in charge of the premium shop is told by Wargaming to make as much money as possible so they keep selling whatever they damn well please. Either that or Wargaming really believes that people are going to be so blown away by the buffed pref premiums that they aren't going to care that they bought it today and tomorrow it gets changed. Neither is really a good corporate culture and the second possibility is probably downright stupid... but again, my guess is it's the fact of different departments given different goals / not working together on a single problem.

RageSimulationInProgress #30 Posted May 26 2018 - 12:22

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View PostRobert_Skera, on May 26 2018 - 10:15, said:

 

Problem is you would still be bad in a -0/+0 MM.  Baddies are going to get rolled no matter what the MM does.  Ive rolled the T9 portion of an enemy team in a KV-5 while the rest of my team, T9's included, died to the enemy T8's.

 

Tiers are not what is broken with MM, inconsistent player skill is.  Player stats need to be accounted for in the MM if they aren't already.

 

I have to agree with this and i will be the first to admit i am at best a decent player, don't really care to be better, all i want out of this game is... FUN.

 

REMEMBER FUN IN VIDEO GAMES? yeah i know such a concept

 

but seriously for a game where the devs and players alike are SO obsessed with STATISTICS (over fun) you would think it would occur to someone to use the BUILT-IN PLAYER RATING SYSTEM to help the MM be more even on a team to team basis. I think it would help, if done right of course... add the PR# into the MM calculations...? Just a thought...

 

Most random battles these days are an easy one sided victory for the team that got most of the better players regardless of the tanks on the field.

 

I personally don't even enjoy being on the winning side of these battles, I want a fun battle that takes a little skill and forethought to win, or even a loss that came down to the other team fighting harder and smarter rather than just being stacked with unicums.



JimmyJimboJimBob #31 Posted Jun 04 2018 - 19:46

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What about the rest? The KV-5 is only the first tank to be remodeled. They fully intend to remove ALL preferential MM tanks from the game starting with this one. This is just the first step.

Ich_bin_Hass #32 Posted Jun 04 2018 - 20:14

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Ok my friends. The whole issue here is said to be wait times. LOL  I remember when you could wait a minute and a half to get into a battle long ago. I remember when battles use to time out to a draw long ago. Oh not only that. But Pref tanks screw up the MM as it searches for more T9's.  I remember when you could get dropped into a battle with up too TEN, I repeat TEN SPG's per side. Now since WoT's has screwed the MM so bad you can face up too TEN TD's per side. Now, it's Preferential MM Tanks that's the problem. The reason we have all this trouble is WoT's don't care what it's paying customer wants or feels when they get SCREWED. They cater too the big clans and most of those are based out of Europe or Russia. Why do you think that the NA servers have been hemorrhaging subscribers and players for the last three years. Because North American players don't matter.

 

  Face it people. Wargames will not treat those that paid real money for these items fairly. FORGET IT. Either pay your 2000 gold and SHUT UP. Or ! Just keep the tanks in the garage not to be seen again. Oh ! Don't EVEN pay for anymore premiums. Because if they were such trouble in the first place ? WHY ARE THEY STILL PEDDLING THEM. 



dcfan #33 Posted Jun 11 2018 - 21:42

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View PostVampiresbane, on May 25 2018 - 09:47, said:

 

Your statement oversimplifies the issue.  That 1 pref mm tank doesn't really mess it up for 29 tanks.  All the tier 8 and tier 9 tanks of those 29 tanks listed may have only been in queue for 10 secs.  That's up to 23 tanks that got +1/-1 mm because you queue'd.  I'd wager those players would much rather play +1/-1 vs 8's and 9's than be in a battle vs 8,9, and 10's.

 

Do yourself a favor.  Get a stopwatch.

1. Click battle in a tier 8.

2. Record the time to get in.

3. Click battle in a perf tier 8.

4. Record the time to get in.

5. Click battle in a tier 10.

6. Record the time to get in.

 

Now compare all three.  I'd be willing to bet 5g that the order of longest queue times are: tier 10, tier 8 pref, tier 8.  Now compare the raw times for the pref 8 to the reg 8.  Anecdotally, I'd reason your reg tier 8 tanks take anywhere from 10 seconds to 45 seconds to find a match during prime time.  Your pref 8 tanks probably take anywhere from 30 secs to 90 seconds to find a match during prime time.

 

Now do you think most players would rather keep their pref mm tanks and deal with a minute longer queue?  I believe so.  I would and still do.  I still play my WZ-111, 112, and Super Pershing.  Having pref mm is why the majority of us bought those tanks to begin with.

 

I did exactly this and got these results. Hardly scientific BUT: tier ten Super Conq:  1:08 and 1:20

                                                                                                  pref MM Jagitg 88:  :47 and :07 (top tier both games!!)

                                                                                                  tier eight T-34-2: :19 (tier 9 battle)

                                                                                                  tier eight STA-1: :39 (tier 10 battle)

This was just this afternoon, in the central time zone between noon and 3pm



Nonamanadus #34 Posted Jun 12 2018 - 02:25

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The talk about pref premiums messing with MM is pure sewage, if anything you would see those 1.4% tanks flooding the tier VIIs & VI queues. 

 

Computers are really good at sorting numbers and data, so if Wargaming is having difficulty organizing the numbers then they should hire smarter programmers. At most players with pref tanks would experience a slightly longer wait time to get into a match, probably the same time limit experienced by arty players (in fact when you are loading into a match Wargaming advises you with a message that the wait times might be a bit longer). 

 

 



Strategist1776 #35 Posted Aug 10 2018 - 20:22

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You know what I say to all this Hoopla if you can't play the KV-5 in any matchmaking you probably dont know how to use it. I can play it in tier 10 all day and bounce tier 10 HEAT without issues from a JdpzE100 its fun to watch other people waste their money at my KV-5. I could care less about all the other things that has everyone else riled up its only because you guys stopped having fun and started worring about your WN8 more than playing the game as for thats all it is A GAME                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                  


Edited by Strategist1776, Aug 10 2018 - 20:23.


WhosMans #36 Posted Aug 24 2018 - 02:02

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View PostStrategist1776, on Aug 10 2018 - 19:22, said:

You know what I say to all this Hoopla if you can't play the KV-5 in any matchmaking you probably dont know how to use it. I can play it in tier 10 all day and bounce tier 10 HEAT without issues from a JdpzE100 its fun to watch other people waste their money at my KV-5. I could care less about all the other things that has everyone else riled up its only because you guys stopped having fun and started worring about your WN8 more than playing the game as for thats all it is A GAME                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                  

 

I would love to see you post a replay playing at tier 10 with a KV-5 and manage to contribute at least your HP in damage. It's one thing to say it, but it's a completely different animal to achieve that result which you think is so easy. Judging from the statistics of your KV-5, you can only muster on average 692 damage per game which leaves alot to be desired :trollface:

AZandEL #37 Posted Aug 24 2018 - 04:06

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View Post24_inch_pythons, on May 25 2018 - 14:07, said:

 Everybody, I think, has had a very understandable emotional reaction to the news of the KV-5 changes. Let's try to set emotion aside and look at the situation that Wargaming says it is in and then, without emotion, see what the best way forward might be.

 

 Let's first look at Wargaming's claim that all Preferential MM tanks, not just the KV-5, screw up the MM. People are skeptical of this claim. What we know is that Wargaming has claimed this for years now. Long before 3-5-7 was a thing Wargaming was talking about how Pref MM tanks were screwing up the MM. In fact, their first try at fixing this was to not sell Pref MM tanks anymore (uh-huh, right Wargaming, you did great at that - and have only your greed to blame). So why the skepticism? Seriously, why would Wargaming remove some Preferential MM premium tanks from the store and be talking about this for years, multiple years if this wasn't an issue, why? Think of this, for every tank with Preferential MM that wants to get into a battle there are up to twenty-nine regular MM tanks that have their MM screwed up to accommodate one Preferential MM tank. That sounds to me like Preferential MM tanks have a vastly oversized effect on the MM. So, I for one believe Wargaming that it's a problem. Now, what do we do about it?

 

 Wargaming's fix now is to buff the Preferential MM tanks enough to make them regular tanks that see +/-2 MM. Their current plan is to give players the option of keeping the buffed tank or to pay a price of no more than 2,000 gold to "upgrade" to a different, regular Premium tank. This is where Wargaming runs into problems and this is where we, their business partners, need to be willing to work with them. Sometimes we find ourselves in bad situations where nobody is going to be happy, but if we work together to negotiate an outcome that is the least bad for everybody than in a way we have won, all of us, Wargaming and its customers. 

 Some of the complaints about the implementation of the fix:

1. (And this is the biggest area that there can be no reconciliation on) People bought Preferential MM tanks specifically because they didn't want to fight Tier X tanks. If we're going to move forward you have to give this up. If Preferential MM is a problem than there is literally no way to solve it without getting rid of Preferential MM.

2. The "upgrade" for 2k gold is about the stupidest thing Wargaming could think of. Asking people to pay more money after they feel that they have been taken advantage of. Wargaming needs to give it up and apologize for making this an "option".

3. Players who demand a full cash refund or they'll "sue Wargaming" or "quit playing" or "never spend another penny". Now you're being just as unreasonable as Wargaming asking you to pay 2k gold to "upgrade" to another tank. First off, if you tell a business that you are done doing business with them or you are going to sue them, then they have literally no reason to try to help you or work with you in anyway on anything. Secondly, many people have probably played the tank, most people probably many, many times. Wargaming has always been clear they don't offer refunds on in-game goods that have been used. No matter what Wargaming does to the KV-5, you don't get a cash refund when you've played the KV-5 two-thousand times. The vast majority of players, I would be willing to bet, have more than gotten their fill of the KV-5 for one reason or another and have moved on to other tanks.

 

 If we can't get our cash back and we aren't going to spend 2k gold to "upgrade" to a different tank then how will we agree to move forward with this bad situation that we all find ourselves in?

1. Obviously, is to keep the new KV-5. Undoubtedly some people will be happy with this outcome.

2. A full gold refund of the tank at the highest gold value it ever had in the premium shop. Some people paid more than 7,500 gold equivalent. Some people will undoubtedly be happy with this outcome.

3. Not everyone will agree to #1 or #2 above, what would be acceptable? Gold and premium time? A gifted new premium especially and exclusively for people who fell into this? 

 

 Let's try to get over the emotion and think about what we want out of this to make ourselves content that we have partnered with Wargaming and come up with a solution that may not be perfect, it may not have been everything we wanted, but it get's us through this as best it can. 

 - No cash back

 - No spending more money for "upgrades"

 

BTW, I'm a collector. I don't buy tanks for the Preferential MM so I couldn't care less if my Preferential MM tanks lose that status. Generally I'll be happy because I pretty much hate all my Preferential MM tanks... not the FCM, though.

 

You are over thinking this. You paid real money to buy a virtual tank with pref MM and ran if for many many games. Many bought it and dominated games despite the fact that they were well below the ability to actually earn a tank at that tier. Surely you didn't think a bunch of pixels was permanent. 7500 is what $25? Consider that entertainment money - you spend more at the movies or Netflix or cable for a month. The real problem is that there are so many tanks in this game now that they are bound to be unbalanced and simply correcting that will take more and more time than they have time to do. Then they keep adding new ones every week and have to claim they are somehow special which compounds the problem. Its like a ball of string. Add to that the power creep and meta which is clearly brief corridor games (didn't used to be that way) and you have where we are now with now easy way to correct without pissing off a big chunk of the players. They will probably have to switch the whole game to pay to play.

yruputin #38 Posted Aug 24 2018 - 05:01

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Wargaming says BOHICA to it's players .It's their illness.

Mikosah #39 Posted Aug 25 2018 - 00:14

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The idea of rebalancing limited-mm premiums for normal MM wasn't such a terrible idea in itself, the problem is that first of all 3/5/7 is a much greater concern as of right now so dodging that issue is insanely counterproductive. And secondly, the actual rebalancing attempt was clumsy at best. Not to mention that far more practical alternatives exist. They could have dropped the KV-5 down a tier and that would have made balancing much easier. Or they could do what they eventually decided on- buffing based on the realities of the current MM. And then there's the gold surcharge WG asked for, which was needless stupidity.

 

If it were up to me to make the KV-5 work with regular MM at tier 8, I wouldn't even bother changing the armor, that's a lose-lose. It'd be a royal pain to tiers 6 and 7, and still wouldn't pose much of an obstacle to tiers 9 or 10. The current armor meta has been nothing but ebola for this reason. The simplest way to make even the clunkiest, most underpowered POS playable is just to give it abundant penetration. That alone would do incredible things for tanks like the KV-5 or JT88, limited MM or otherwise. The current proposal to buff the pen by just a few millimeters just isn't enough. 

 

The problem in a nutshell is having to load gold just to pen weakspots.






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