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Over 1 Year Later, 3-5-7 MM Is A Failure

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Liberty75 #1 Posted May 27 2018 - 02:22

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Here is some feedback for you WG.

 

About 13 months have gone by since the 3/5/7 Match Maker was introduced with great fanfare and looking back now, it hasn't made matches better and it has actually made them worse. It has made the game overly repetitive with the same three templates, over and over. It decimated tier 8 tanks (and the other middle tiers as well). And now you are claiming preferential tanks are broken, which is a lie (like the 3/5/7 MM being good), OR they are broken and it shows your incompetence in making this MM change in the first place without thinking it through.

 

Just admit you screwed up with the MM change Wargaming and revert back to the previous system and tweak that one to make more balanced teams (its only flaw).



_Gungrave_ #2 Posted May 27 2018 - 02:32

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View PostLiberty75, on May 27 2018 - 02:22, said:

Here is some feedback for you WG.

 

About 13 months have gone by since the 3/5/7 Match Maker was introduced with great fanfare and looking back now, it hasn't made matches better and it has actually made them worse. It has made the game overly repetitive with the same three templates, over and over. It decimated tier 8 tanks (and the other middle tiers as well). And now you are claiming preferential tanks are broken, which is a lie (like the 3/5/7 MM being good), OR they are broken and it shows your incompetence in making this MM change in the first place without thinking it through.

 

Just admit you screwed up with the MM change Wargaming and revert back to the previous system and tweak that one to make more balanced teams (its only flaw).

 

As much as I prefer the old MM I'd rather not be able to see the chance of 5 mouth breather arty players while increasing the chances of seeing 3 a match. Remember with the arty buffs seeing 3 to 5 in most games now that would basically kill any enjoyment to be had with this game.

Edited by _Gungrave_, May 27 2018 - 02:33.


KiDiaba #3 Posted May 27 2018 - 02:36

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Lesser_Spotted_Panzer #4 Posted May 27 2018 - 02:39

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They did make some improvements, like balance between classes and less arty, but the 3/5/7 negates all the good stuff they did.

I can't imaging how new players find this game, being bottom all the time. I'm guessing they just give up before getting very far.



dominator_98 #5 Posted May 27 2018 - 02:44

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It's a pity that the core gameplay is so good, or I'd have left these devs and their [edited] decisions in the dirt a long time ago.

Liberty75 #6 Posted May 27 2018 - 02:48

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View Post_Gungrave_, on May 26 2018 - 20:32, said:

As much as I prefer the old MM I'd rather not be able to see the chance of 5 mouth breather arty players while increasing the chances of seeing 3 a match. Remember with the arty buffs seeing 3 to 5 in most games now that would basically kill any enjoyment to be had with this game.

 

I agree. But arty nerf and 3/5/7 MM change are separate things. The only common thing they have is that they were introduced in the same patch. 3/5/7 in this thread refers to the template system that has lowered the quality of the game with three generally strict templates that have produced an inferior experience compared to the previous MM. And the old MM was not perfect. It should have been tweaked instead of replaced. It only needed a team balancing tweak.

n00bfarmer #7 Posted May 27 2018 - 02:49

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One of the most common complaints I hear at the start of the large majority of battles in tiers 4-8 is players hating being bottom tier most of the time. I would rather have a more even chance to get bottom/mid/top tier even if it means having more top tier tanks. More top tier tanks would also mean more hit points in the battle which could help reduce those fast steam roll matches that seem to have greatly increased since 3/5/7 mm was introduced. More top tier tanks would spread the load of carrying a battle over a wider range of players and prevent the 3 player platoons from greatly influencing the battle. Get 3 good or slightly above average players in the top 3 tanks in 3/5/7 on one team and 3 average to below average on the enemy team's top tiers and its gg. I hate the 3/5/7 template as much as artillery. Why don't they make the template system try to form a 5/10 team first and if it can't fill that, then it can choose all same tier (if that tier has a lot more tanks in the que than the other tiers) and the very last choice should be 3/5/7. They have everything backwards with matchmaking with it choosing 3/5/7 first. That should be the last resort template...

Isola_di_Fano #8 Posted May 27 2018 - 02:53

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OP,

You obviously did not get the memo ... MM is fantastic, the problem is the Pref MM tanks ...



SenaKashiwazaki #9 Posted May 27 2018 - 02:58

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I feel like i'm the only one who likes 3/5/7 MM..... :( 

_Gungrave_ #10 Posted May 27 2018 - 02:59

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View PostLiberty75, on May 27 2018 - 02:48, said:

 

I agree. But arty nerf and 3/5/7 MM change are separate things. The only common thing they have is that they were introduced in the same patch. 3/5/7 in this thread refers to the template system that has lowered the quality of the game with three generally strict templates that have produced an inferior experience compared to the previous MM. And the old MM was not perfect. It should have been tweaked instead of replaced. It only needed a team balancing tweak.

 

It wasn't a nerf, it was a buff because arty traded some alpha for increased blast radius, accuracy, aim time, and stun effect.

 

View PostSenaKashiwazaki, on May 27 2018 - 02:58, said:

I feel like i'm the only one who likes 3/5/7 MM..... :( 

 

Some don't mind it but then you have some who preferred the old MM simply because top tier games were more frequent and pref MM tanks weren't irrelevant back then. Remember now that WG is trying to "fix" the pref MM tanks rather than fixing the MM to work with them.

Edited by _Gungrave_, May 27 2018 - 03:15.


Liberty75 #11 Posted May 27 2018 - 03:10

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View PostSenaKashiwazaki, on May 26 2018 - 20:58, said:

I feel like i'm the only one who likes 3/5/7 MM..... :( 

 

The same three templates are overly repetitive in a game that is overly repetitive to begin with (15 vs. 15 battles over and over). The previous MM could put you into over 100 different team make-ups. It helped keep the game fresh. They could have easily tweaked that MM instead of a complete change.

 

Don't get me wrong, the game is still an overall decent experience, even with the downgraded MM we now have. WG just made a bad decision and refuses to admit it.



Kamahl1234 #12 Posted May 27 2018 - 03:27

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View Post_Gungrave_, on May 27 2018 - 01:32, said:

 

As much as I prefer the old MM I'd rather not be able to see the chance of 5 mouth breather arty players while increasing the chances of seeing 3 a match. Remember with the arty buffs seeing 3 to 5 in most games now that would basically kill any enjoyment to be had with this game.

 

For myself the reason I'd not want to lose the 3/5/7 (without tightening tier spread) is I don't want to see more than 3 top tiers ever, when bottom tier. As while people moan about it now, I still remember the 10+ top tiers per team we used to see pretty frequently. 

Liberty75 #13 Posted May 27 2018 - 03:50

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View PostKamahl1234, on May 26 2018 - 21:27, said:

 

For myself the reason I'd not want to lose the 3/5/7 (without tightening tier spread) is I don't want to see more than 3 top tiers ever, when bottom tier. As while people moan about it now, I still remember the 10+ top tiers per team we used to see pretty frequently

 

Frequently = hardly ever. Our memories are faulty. This was closer to your reality...

 

The red bars are the percent of bottom tier matches (taken from 2 different players) with the amount of top tier tanks in the match indicated along the bottom (in a 400 game sample size).

 

 

Over 70% of a player's bottom tier games had 5 or less top tier tanks. Most of the other 30% had about 6 to 7 top tier tanks (and that 30% basically translates to about 8 games in 100). To fix these 8 games in every 100, WG made us bottom tier in almost 50% of our games. These templates killed the variety we had in match line-ups, it made the MM very predictable (you're going to be bottom most of the time), and it certainly didn't improve the game.

 

WG relies on us having bad memories. I was even shocked when I dug through the data last year. But there it was staring me in the face: WG screwed us.



_Gungrave_ #14 Posted May 27 2018 - 03:51

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View PostKamahl1234, on May 27 2018 - 03:27, said:

 

For myself the reason I'd not want to lose the 3/5/7 (without tightening tier spread) is I don't want to see more than 3 top tiers ever, when bottom tier. As while people moan about it now, I still remember the 10+ top tiers per team we used to see pretty frequently. 

 

Being bottom tier never bothered me but the lack of top tier games in Format MM with tier 8s(especially pref MM tanks) is what bothers quite a few people. Besides that if you get bad top tier players that puts your team at a huge disadvantage.

Edited by _Gungrave_, May 27 2018 - 03:53.


pR1mal_ #15 Posted May 27 2018 - 13:54

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When I enter a match and I'm two tiers higher than 95% of the other team I don't feel good,   I feel quite the opposite.   I feel patronized,   like someone stuck a big fat XP piñata in front of me and I'm being given a window licker sticker for participation.

 

When I enter a match and I'm two tiers lower,   I get pissed off every single time.   If I wanted to drive a tier Z tank I would have queued up in an ofking tier Z tank.   Ferk off and die with your bs MM.

 

That's why I stick with FL,   skirmishes,   and low tiers.    The rest is trash due to the MM.



dunniteowl #16 Posted May 27 2018 - 15:22

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View Post_Gungrave_, on May 26 2018 - 19:59, said:

 

It wasn't a nerf, it was a buff because arty traded some alpha for increased blast radius, accuracy, aim time, and stun effect.

 

They also LOST HALF their penetration for these "buffs."  Don't forget that.  That was significant.  No other vehicle has ever been nerfed as hard as SPGs in this game.  If this were D&D the Magic User would be gone from the game already -- which sort of kills the whole D&D aspect to that game.

 

 

Some don't mind it but then you have some who preferred the old MM simply because top tier games were more frequent and pref MM tanks weren't irrelevant back then. Remember now that WG is trying to "fix" the pref MM tanks rather than fixing the MM to work with them.

 

Just thought I'd share that detail you KEEP LEAVING OUT when you talk about what happened to SPGs as if they got this "great deal" with the changes, which simply isn't true.  Please, if you're going to be factual, then be completely factual.

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF

(been wanting to say that for a while now, about a year, I guess)



dunniteowl #17 Posted May 27 2018 - 15:34

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Separately:

 

I liked the old MM.  I didn't mind the way it worked or how unbalanced it was.  It was crazy and you really never knew what might occur.  Now, to be fair, I don't have a problem with ONLY +/-2 MM and tiers 1-3 seeing only +/-1.  That's fine, I guess, but it takes the variety of what might occur RIGHT OUT.  In some (many) ways, that may be a good thing.  I just liked how insane the MM was back then, because sometimes it was just amazingly frustrating -- and then, somehow, your team would win something you thought unwinnable on it's face, six heavy, four tank destroyers, two lights a medium and two arty -- what? -- that kind of insane, being matched against something like two heavy, six medium, three tank destroyers a two lights and two arty.

 

That's the sort of stuff that made, in my view, the matchmaking awesome.  You couldn't count on meeting a balanced by unit team and if you did, it was usually wildly crazy in the distribution of skill anyway.  Literally anything could happen.

 

That was its appeal to me.

 

 

I think balancing for tiers to keep it more even is probably a good idea, even though I liked the old MM.  I would be okay with some set of balancing algorithms, like 3/5/7, then also, say, 5/5/5, 4/6/5, 7/8,  2/4/9 might even be fun.  Maybe have them set to 'rotate' every forty minutes or thirty minutes or so, in order that all the algorithms get used, maintaining a semblance of greater variety in matching and battle types without tossing out the entire tiering concept that makes this game what it is in terms of challenge.

 

I don't mind it the way it is, though I have to admit, I miss the old MM in it's entirety.  I have found nothing in the new MM that makes me go, "Well, gosh darn it, I think this New MM is the Bee's Knees!"  And you can quote me on that.  It's okay.  I do know that I am more often now bottom tier than I was before, though I don't really mind that usually.  Felt pretty much like that when I played the Leopard or Chaffee and saw tier tier VIIIs regularly.  You get used to it.

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF



_Gungrave_ #18 Posted May 27 2018 - 15:47

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View Postdunniteowl, on May 27 2018 - 15:22, said:

 

Just thought I'd share that detail you KEEP LEAVING OUT when you talk about what happened to SPGs as if they got this "great deal" with the changes, which simply isn't true.  Please, if you're going to be factual, then be completely factual.

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF

(been wanting to say that for a while now, about a year, I guess)

 

Penetration doesn't matter because arty shoots HE which is what makes it a broken mechanic.

dunniteowl #19 Posted May 27 2018 - 15:54

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View Post_Gungrave_, on May 27 2018 - 08:47, said:

 

Penetration doesn't matter because arty shoots HE which is what makes it a broken mechanic.

 

Not true and you know it.  Penetration matters.  If it didn't, there wouldn't be a mechanic for it.

 

So, now what?

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF



Goat_Rodeo #20 Posted May 27 2018 - 16:00

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I have a deep suspicion that thoroughly thinking this games balance aspects through before implementation, is not this companies strong suit. If they would just put a temporary hold on the introduction of all these new tanks and for just a few months and invested some time, and more importantly, thought into the MM testing, they might be able to stop painting themselves into (edited) corners. 

Edited by Goat_Rodeo, May 27 2018 - 21:37.






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