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MM Preferential MM

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JTM78 #1 Posted May 31 2018 - 20:25

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https://www.youtube....h?v=8IcwR7jGsSU

I found this and just figured I would pass it along to the forum. It is in the comments below the video.

All data and original post to video done by a player going by Matt. Thank you Matt for finding the data and bring it forward.

QB, I'm sorry for the length of this explanation, and I'm sorry to throw some math at you, but this data isn't lying. Wargaming is. Blatantly. All data presented is from www.vbaddict.net from the last 30 days, with tanks with at least 1,000 battles. Total tanks in battles: about 12,465,220 Total Tier 8 tank appearances: 3,719,187 Total Tier 8 Preferential MM Premium (PMM) tank appearances: 176,185 Total Tier 8 Premium tank appearances: 1,793,644 Total Tier 8 standard tank appearances: 1,749,358 Tier 9 tank appearances: 1,892,439 Tier 10 tank appearances: 1,263,886 All together, Tier 8 Preferential Matchmaking (PMM) tanks make up about 1.4% of the total tanks played. Add in the tier 7 PMM tanks, and you're still just shy of 2% of the total tanks played. In fact, only two PMM tanks at any tier even made the top 100 played tanks, the SuperPershing (#65, 48K battles) and the E25 (#73, 47K battles). The KV-5, Wargaming's apparent problem child, ranks #398 with just over 6K battles played, or about 0.05% of the total. Wargaming's excuse is a complete fabrication. If 1.4% of the tanks played are disrupting the matchmaking, there's a bigger underlying problem with the matchmaking. I suspect that the problem with matchmaking is that 29% of the tanks that enter a battle are tier 8. Only 15% are tier 9, and only 10% are tier 10. The 3/5/7 matchmaking model fits this perfectly. There are twice as many tier 8 tanks played as there are tier 9 and 10 combined. Tiers 6 and 7 are 14% and 13%, respectively. The root problem with matchmaking would appear to be economics, both in-game and real-world. Tier 8 premium tanks are the most profitable, and thus, the most often played. There are more tier 8 tank appearances than any other tier, and more than half of these appearances are in premium tanks. Not coincidentally, there are 102 available tanks at tier 8, 50 at tier 9, and 56 at tier 10. Of these 102 tier 8 tanks, 56 are premium tanks. You read that correctly. There are the same number of tier 8 premium tanks as there are tier 10 tanks, and 6 more than there are tier 9 tanks. It's no wonder that there are so many more games played at tier 8. The horrible economics at tiers 9 and 10 force players to use tier 8 premium tanks to remain profitable overall. Why are there so many tier 8 premiums in-game? Look at all the specials in the premium store. Every week since 1.0 launched, it seems like there's been a different deal on a tier 8 premium. I haven't kept a close enough watch to be sure. The biggest real money makers for WG are tier 8 premiums, because the biggest credit earners for us are tier 8 premiums. Sorry, Wargaming, but your excuse just doesn't hold water.

the_dude_76 #2 Posted May 31 2018 - 20:44

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A- Have you ever heard the phrase "wall of text"??

 

B- This has been passed around the forum for a couple days. The problem is that the OP stops doing the math before he gets to the relevant point-

 

Out of 100 tanks in the queue 2 will be PMM

100 tanks = 3.3 battles

So in every 3.3 battles 2 PMM tanks will appear

 

That's nearly 2 out of 3...

 

Block Quote

 The KV-5, Wargaming's apparent problem child, 

 

And the KV5 is not a "problem child", it's a guinea pig.

 


Edited by the_dude_76, May 31 2018 - 20:48.


Says #3 Posted May 31 2018 - 20:51

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WG should have just said they are doing XXXXXX with pref MM tanks and not tried to rationalize it with that explanation they rolled out.

OldFrog75 #4 Posted May 31 2018 - 20:55

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View PostJTM78, on May 31 2018 - 11:25, said:

 Why are there so many tier 8 premiums in-game? Look at all the specials in the premium store. Every week since 1.0 launched, it seems like there's been a different deal on a tier 8 premium. I haven't kept a close enough watch to be sure. The biggest real money makers for WG are tier 8 premiums, because the biggest credit earners for us are tier 8 premiums. Sorry, Wargaming, but your excuse just doesn't hold water.

So what is their motivation for eliminating Pref MM tanks?  I'm hoping it's the first step in their implementing +1/-1 MM.  Once all the Pref MM tanks are gone and the tanks "balanced," they can then move away from 3/5/7 with fewer issues.


Edited by OldFrog75, May 31 2018 - 20:56.


Mega_Death #5 Posted May 31 2018 - 20:56

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So, the MM problem with Tier VIII's is a self created issue by the introduction of Tier VIII Premiums in the first place? It seems the current balance issue is the long history of selling Premium tanks that continually power creeped the Tech tree tanks in order to make a profit. That in turn has made good MM paired matches difficult to produce.

 

If they go tweaking the current Tier VIII Premiums to be able to be somewhat competitive when seeing Tier X aren't you just kicking the MM and balance issue down the Tier levels? Poor Tier VI's that have to go up against a Defender or Chrysler have less ability to compete than a Premium Tier VIII when seeing Tier X's.

 

They initially sold Premiums as credit earners and crew trainers. They should have spread the Premium tanks throughout the Tier levels rather than concentrating so many on Tier VIII.

 

I just don't see a way out of 3/5/7 and the current state of imbalance.

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Mega_Death, May 31 2018 - 20:57.


Hurk #6 Posted May 31 2018 - 20:58

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VBaddict data is not a complete set of data. they rely on user queries and agents to gather it. 

Striker_70 #7 Posted May 31 2018 - 21:04

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They're still selling a bunch of pref MM tanks right now.  If pref MM tanks were as bad as claimed, then they wouldn't be selling them.

 

The solution to their problem is to reverse 3-5-7 matchmaking.  Put players in same tier and 5-10 matches first, then 3-5-7 battles last.

 

 

 



Knagar #8 Posted May 31 2018 - 21:23

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View PostOldFrog75, on May 31 2018 - 14:55, said:

So what is their motivation for eliminating Pref MM tanks?  I'm hoping it's the first step in their implementing +1/-1 MM.  Once all the Pref MM tanks are gone and the tanks "balanced," they can then move away from 3/5/7 with fewer issues.

 

They screw up MM, they are obsolete, can't compete, and they no longer sell. Premium tanks that don't sell are worthless.

 

And no, +1/-1 would be stupid, that would cause more issues than pref MM tanks. 3/5/7 works just fine, gotta get good.



scHnuuudle_bop #9 Posted May 31 2018 - 21:28

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the MM is PERFECT, there is nothing wrong with the match maker, the match maker is working fine.

 

you get 34% bottom tier, 33% middle tier, and 33% top tier, so, 1/3 of the time you will whine snivel, cry and whine, about being bottom tier, Exactly how it is supposed to work.

Those who lose preferential MM, boo hoo, get over it. Pay to win, and it suffers in an extremely small way. 



Says #10 Posted May 31 2018 - 21:40

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View PostscHnuuudle_bop, on May 31 2018 - 21:28, said:

the MM is PERFECT, there is nothing wrong with the match maker, the match maker is working fine.

 

you get 34% bottom tier, 33% middle tier, and 33% top tier, so, 1/3 of the time you will whine snivel, cry and whine, about being bottom tier, Exactly how it is supposed to work.

Those who lose preferential MM, boo hoo, get over it. Pay to win, and it suffers in an extremely small way.

 

I hope your rear end is sore from pulling those numbers out of it.

BillT #11 Posted May 31 2018 - 21:51

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View Postthe_dude_76, on May 31 2018 - 14:44, said:

B- This has been passed around the forum for a couple days. The problem is that the OP stops doing the math before he gets to the relevant point-

 

Out of 100 tanks in the queue 2 will be PMM

100 tanks = 3.3 battles

So in every 3.3 battles 2 PMM tanks will appear

 

 

That's a strange way to do the math.  And it's not what WG is claiming, anyway.

G is saying that pref MM tanks are grabbing all the Tier 9s, and that forces Tier 10s to come looking for more Tier 8s.   So let's examine that.  The numbers above show that there are:

Tier Count Pct Ratio
T10 1263886 18.4% 3.0
T9 1892439 27.5% 4.5
T8 3719187 54.1% 8.8
Total 6875512 100%  


That is, the tanks are being played in a ratio of 3-4.5-8.8.  If ever tier 10 were put in to a 3-5-7 match, there wouldn't be quite enough Tier 9 tanks to do it, but there'd be plenty of Tier 8s.


There are also 176,185 Tier 8 pref MM tanks. That's 5% of the Tier 8 population.  

 

WG's explanation is that the pref MM T8s are always being put into 5-10 Tier 9 matches (because heaven forfend they should ever be top tier!).  So they'll suck half their own number (88,000) Tier 9 tanks out of the queue. That's 2.5% of the Tier 9s. 

 

So let's pull all those T8 pref and T9 tanks out of the starting numbers and recalculate.  Now the table looks like this:

Tier Count Pct Ratio
T10 1263886 19.1% 3.0
T9 1804347 27.3% 4.3
T8 3543002 53.6% 8.4
Total 6611235 100%  

 

As you can see, the Tier 8 pref MM tanks and the Tier 9s they consumed barely affect the final ratios.  (Which was obvious from the start when only 5% of Tier 8s are pref MM.)  It's ridiculous to blame the T8 pref MM tanks for forcing Tier 8 regulars into Tier 10 matches.

 

These data also show that the real problem is simply the large number of Tier 10 tanks being played, and WG's apparent reluctance to consign them to all-tier-10 matches.  


Edited by BillT, May 31 2018 - 23:27.


Gothraul #12 Posted May 31 2018 - 21:55

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View Postthe_dude_76, on May 31 2018 - 20:44, said:

A- Have you ever heard the phrase "wall of text"??

 

B- This has been passed around the forum for a couple days. The problem is that the OP stops doing the math before he gets to the relevant point-

 

Out of 100 tanks in the queue 2 will be PMM

100 tanks = 3.3 battles

So in every 3.3 battles 2 PMM tanks will appear

 

That's nearly 2 out of 3...

 

 

And the KV5 is not a "problem child", it's a guinea pig.

 

 

I've seen and have read through much worse, at least it is not the tax code.

the_dude_76 #13 Posted May 31 2018 - 22:37

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View PostBillT, on May 31 2018 - 20:51, said:

 

That's a strange way to do the math.   That's only true if all the matches are all-tier-8. 

 

With 3-5-7 MM creating Tier 10 matches, 100 T8 tanks in queue is enough for 7 matches, and only 2 of those could possibly be screwed up because the 2 pref MM tanks aren't available.  (This is the other extreme from what you described)

 

But neither of these is what WG claims is the problem.  WG is saying that pref MM tanks are grabbing all the Tier 9s.  So let's examine that.  The numbers above show that there are:

Tank tier

T10 1263886 18% 3.0
T9 1892439 28% 4.5
T8 3719187 54% 8.8

 

The post I'm responding to refers specifically to tier 7 & 8 tanks. I didn't start the math, I just finished it.

Edited by the_dude_76, May 31 2018 - 22:37.


the_dude_76 #14 Posted May 31 2018 - 23:02

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View PostscHnuuudle_bop, on May 31 2018 - 20:28, said:

the MM is PERFECT, there is nothing wrong with the match maker, the match maker is working fine.

 

you get 34% bottom tier, 33% middle tier, and 33% top tier, so, 1/3 of the time you will whine snivel, cry and whine, about being bottom tier, Exactly how it is supposed to work.

Those who lose preferential MM, boo hoo, get over it. Pay to win, and it suffers in an extremely small way. 

 

3/5/7 = 20% on top, 33% in middle and 47% on bottom

 

Math is your friend...



BillT #15 Posted May 31 2018 - 23:28

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View Postthe_dude_76, on May 31 2018 - 16:37, said:

 

The post I'm responding to refers specifically to tier 7 & 8 tanks. I didn't start the math, I just finished it.

 

Sorry, I accidentally posted only halfway through the edit, so please re-read my posting in the entirety.

And the T7 tanks are irrelevant - a red herring. 

Edited by BillT, May 31 2018 - 23:31.


scHnuuudle_bop #16 Posted Jun 01 2018 - 00:28

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View PostSays, on May 31 2018 - 21:40, said:

 

I hope your rear end is sore from pulling those numbers out of it.

 

I believe someone who provides actually data, rather than anecdotal numbers.

 

Just like so many other sad whines and snivels about so many things in this forum, MM is fine.

 

 

 



Liberty75 #17 Posted Jun 01 2018 - 02:24

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View PostJTM78, on May 31 2018 - 14:25, said:

QB, I'm sorry for the length of this explanation, and I'm sorry to throw some math at you, but this data isn't lying. Wargaming is. Blatantly.

 

They have been lying for some time now. WG lied about how good the 3/5/7 template system is last year, they lied about not selling special reward tanks (and then sold the Mutant), and now this. Get used to it.

commander42 #18 Posted Jun 01 2018 - 03:55

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OP two issues, wall of text and vbaddict.  vbaddict is only a small subset of the population, wall of text makes everything harder to read.
 

commander42 #19 Posted Jun 01 2018 - 03:58

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View PostscHnuuudle_bop, on May 31 2018 - 15:28, said:

the MM is PERFECT, there is nothing wrong with the match maker, the match maker is working fine.

 

you get 34% bottom tier, 33% middle tier, and 33% top tier, so, 1/3 of the time you will whine snivel, cry and whine, about being bottom tier, Exactly how it is supposed to work.

Those who lose preferential MM, boo hoo, get over it. Pay to win, and it suffers in an extremely small way.

 

hope sarcasm? even the hardest of wg defenders wouldn't say the mm is working fine.  Any person who pays any attention whatsoever knows it has many issues but the people who defend it claim it is better than the old one, which is debatable but is a valid point.


depending on the tier the numbers are <5%-top 20%-med >75%-bottom

scHnuuudle_bop #20 Posted Jun 01 2018 - 06:16

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View Postcommander42, on Jun 01 2018 - 03:58, said:

 

hope sarcasm? even the hardest of wg defenders wouldn't say the mm is working fine.  Any person who pays any attention whatsoever knows it has many issues but the people who defend it claim it is better than the old one, which is debatable but is a valid point.


depending on the tier the numbers are <5%-top 20%-med >75%-bottom

 

sorry, match maker is fine, prove your numbers other wise it is nothing more than exaggeration. I play a lot of games, and it sure seems fine to me.

Perhaps switching tiers is what is happening to you, it just feels off, last game in your tier 5 you were bottom rung, then next shazam, in your tier 8 you are bottom again. OMG, call the cops, it happened twice in a row.

 

Sorry, nothing wrong with it.

 







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