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BillT #141 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 16:28

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View Post_Spade_, on Jul 12 2018 - 07:40, said:

FTFY. Any "history buffs" would have been irrevocably offended by WoT many years ago. If vehicles' historicalness is the end-all be-all for you, there's another tank game almost purpose-made for autists you should be playing.

 

"End-all be-all" is going a bit far.   I signed up for a game about historical tanks. Yeah, a lot of the ones in the game are based on drawings or even sketches, or are post-war, and they include some unhistorical modifications.  And that's a negative to me.  But it's still an order of magnitude better than cartoons or science fiction tanks.  

 

Sure, some people would probably want to add mechs, or steampunk crawlers, or armored dirigibles, but that's not the game WG advertised, designed, and built.  And it's not the game I've paid to play for 7 years now. 

 

So hey, you're free to encourage WG to add the Girls und Panzer tanks, or tanks from the Meng "Toons Tank" plastic models,  Ogres, Bolos, the tank from Tank Girl, and any other silly stuff you think would make this a better game.  You can even demand the "jig-saw" Haunted Tank that's in my avatar.  When I was ten years old, I thought  that tank was really cool, so it's probably right up your alley. 

 

Meanwhile I'll keep reminding WG that if they turn this game into something that silly, I'll stop playing. 



_Spade_ #142 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 17:08

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View PostBillT, on Jul 12 2018 - 10:28, said:

 

"End-all be-all" is going a bit far.   I signed up for a game about historical tanks. Yeah, a lot of the ones in the game are based on drawings or even sketches, or are post-war, and they include some unhistorical modifications.  And that's a negative to me.  But it's still an order of magnitude better than cartoons or science fiction tanks.  

 

Sure, some people would probably want to add mechs, or steampunk crawlers, or armored dirigibles, but that's not the game WG advertised, designed, and built.  And it's not the game I've paid to play for 7 years now. 

 

So hey, you're free to encourage WG to add the Girls und Panzer tanks, or tanks from the Meng "Toons Tank" plastic models,  Ogres, Bolos, the tank from Tank Girl, and any other silly stuff you think would make this a better game.  You can even demand the "jig-saw" Haunted Tank that's in my avatar.  When I was ten years old, I thought  that tank was really cool, so it's probably right up your alley. 

 

Meanwhile I'll keep reminding WG that if they turn this game into something that silly, I'll stop playing. 

 

You aren't being very consistent. You say you signed up for a game about historical tanks, then claim you don't want GuP tanks...when GuP uses historical tanks. In addition to all the napkin designs and "sekrit dokuments" tanks, there is at least one entire tank line that is purely fiction, and you don't so much as bat an eyelash. However you draw the line at the Edelweiss and would quit playing because then people will be having badwrongfun. I assure you, you won't be missed, and reiterate that there is another game almost custom made for what you want.

SkaerKrow #143 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 18:29

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View PostRush_91, on Jul 11 2018 - 09:35, said:

The LeFH is a German modification of a captured French tank. As to why it's French in-game is anyone's guess.

 

The official reason is that Germany has a ton of existent vehicle designs, while France does not. For the same reason that the FCM 36 Pak 40 is French in game, so is the LefH.

BillT #144 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 18:35

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View Post_Spade_, on Jul 12 2018 - 11:08, said:

 

You aren't being very consistent. You say you signed up for a game about historical tanks, then claim you don't want GuP tanks...when GuP uses historical tanks. In addition to all the napkin designs and "sekrit dokuments" tanks, there is at least one entire tank line that is purely fiction, and you don't so much as bat an eyelash. However you draw the line at the Edelweiss and would quit playing because then people will be having badwrongfun. I assure you, you won't be missed, and reiterate that there is another game almost custom made for what you want.

 

OK, you've convinced me to back-track on GUP.  Those are historical tanks, and if WOT wants to sell GUP skins for them (which I can avoid seeing by clicking my "Historical Only" box, just like the KV-2 ( R ) ), I'm OK with that.   In fact, I'm happy if they're able to make some money doing it.


I won't be missed?  I'm not leaving.  I already have what I want - a game where I don't have to look at cartoon tanks.  You're the one who seems to be throwing a fit because WG won't put cartoon tanks on the NA server.   And WG knows you aren't gonna quit over it, because your existence here today shows you're satisfied with the game even without those tanks.   They know they've marketed this game heavily toward history buffs like me, and they're not going to drive away those customers to suit a few anime buffs who're going to play anyway.

Go round up a hundred thousand anime fans who pledge to start playing WOT if they add the Valkyria tanks, and then I'll be nervous that WG may choose your preferences over mine.



_Spade_ #145 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 18:51

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View PostBillT, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:35, said:

 

OK, you've convinced me to back-track on GUP.  Those are historical tanks, and if WOT wants to sell GUP skins for them (which I can avoid seeing by clicking my "Historical Only" box, just like the KV-2 ( R ) ), I'm OK with that.   In fact, I'm happy if they're able to make some money doing it.

 

That's a fair stance.

 

View PostBillT, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:35, said:

I won't be missed?  I'm not leaving.  I already have what I want - a game where I don't have to look at cartoon tanks.  You're the one who seems to be throwing a fit because WG won't put cartoonvideo game tanks on the NA server.   And WG knows you aren't gonna quit over it, because your existence here today shows you're satisfied with the game even without those tanks.   They know they've marketed this game heavily toward history buffs like me, and they're not going to drive away those customers to suit a few anime buffs who're going to play anyway.


Go round up a hundred thousand anime fans who pledge to start playing WOT if they add the Valkyria tanks, and then I'll be nervous that WG may choose your preferences over mine.

 

Fixed. I still take issue with the game being "heavily marketed" toward history buffs. This was already questionable when the game entered open beta, and has become more and more far fetched as time goes on.



Kenshin2kx #146 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:01

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View Post_Spade_, on Jul 12 2018 - 06:08, said:

 

You aren't being very consistent. You say you signed up for a game about historical tanks, then claim you don't want GuP tanks...when GuP uses historical tanks.

 

<Kenshin2kx>  I'd agree with you here ... with one caveat ... in the anime GuP the tanks are historical by reference, actually a lot like WG's intent IMO ... but the show has it's equivalent issues with reality with its general premise (which I actually don't mind, I found the show to be entertaining and even cute).  That said, I think WoT and GuP are alike in a number of ways, both cater to fans who like tanks, an affection for historical reference, with also elements of intentional whimsy and in some cases pure fantasy.  IMHO, brong on the GuP tanks, and I'll chuckle when I see THAT STUG on the battlefield ... I mean, I've seen some crazy paint jobs lately, but ... 

 

In addition to all the napkin designs and "sekrit dokuments" tanks, there is at least one entire tank line that is purely fiction, and you don't so much as bat an eyelash. However you draw the line at the Edelweiss and would quit playing because then people will be having badwrongfun. I assure you, you won't be missed, and reiterate that there is another game almost custom made for what you want.

 

<Kenshin2kx>  To be fair to Bill, I've had many a debate and have been at odds with a few of his ideas (as I'm sure he is with some of mine) ... but I can say that in all this time I've come to appreciate a clear motivation that I see in his arguments which underscore an appreciation of the historical when it comes to armored warfare during the period of the Great Wars and beyond ... Now I strongly suspect that like myself, Bill has to 'swallow' personal misgivings about the game ... in order to continue to play it (which remains fundamentally entertaining and worthwhile to do so even in its present state).

 

 

 



Kenshin2kx #147 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:14

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View Post_Spade_, on Jul 12 2018 - 07:51, said:

I still take issue with the game being "heavily marketed" toward history buffs. This was already questionable when the game entered open beta, and has become more and more far fetched as time goes on.

 

Now from what I can see of the games development and initial marketing 'behaviors' (I've played for about 4 years, but lurked for a year prior)  I'd say that at the time of lurking, the game was considerably more rigid in terms of 'historical' vehicle inclusion ... granted the physics and gameplay were patently, not simulator grade, but IMHO, the historical nod was there ... a cosmetic element that I think was part of the 'best guess' marketing demographic from the get go ... I find it logical that WG would try to tap into the same type of motivations that inspired a show like GuP ... centered on a group of individuals who live and breath the genre of armored warfare ... centered on the tank.  

 

I think, what has happened ... is a form of expedient business 'scope creep' ... WG likely started out with a focus on war history buffs (that play games) ... then after it's success, decided on expanding the player demographic in order to 'grow' the game to higher levels of market insertion with consequent growth in profits.  Thus, WG has ended up with a game that is IMO, more than a bit schizophrenic in identity and intended player draw ... though to be fair, at present, it seems that WG is accellerating the pace of evolution away from the historical to what ever the greater masses will support in patronage and profit.



gideon_an #148 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:42

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I like the idea of Historical but if there was Historical accuracy then it wouldn't be world of Russian tanks with so many British and German tanks sucking.

BillT #149 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:08

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View Post_Spade_, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:51, said:

I still take issue with the game being "heavily marketed" toward history buffs. 

 

To me it's obvious.  Maybe that's because I've been around a long time and over the course of 30-odd years of computer game development, I've never seen another tank driving video game that tried so hard to be historical. 

WG went to a lot of expense to carefully model the real appearance of actual WWII tanks, down to the last weld and bolt.  That was a lot of effort to go through if they didn't think that kind of accuracy was valued by their customers.  Likewise they were diligent in details like the Panther having a "7.5 cm KWK 42", when they could have just said "75mm" or "75 L/70" or even "Attack Power 12".  They went to the extra effort to use the historical nomenclature.  They didn't need to make the Tiger's armor values exactly match the historical numbers (100 mm front, 80mm sides), but they did.  They didn't need to match each tank's actual crew configuration -- they could have just put five crew in all of them.  Who would care, except the history buffs?  Why didn't they include drawing-board tanks from the outset, and instead only added them later to fill gaps in the historical lines or because they ran out of ideas for premium tanks to sell? Then there's all the work they did to make the mechanics seem realistic; gun disperision, penetration mechanics that are different for AP, APDS, and HEAT, armor slope and angling, turret traverse rates, ground resistance...

 

It's all wasted effort if the customers don't care -- a lot -- about the appearance of historicity. 



The_Ice_Cream_Man_ #150 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:23

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View Postgideonan, on Jul 12 2018 - 19:42, said:

I like the idea of Historical but if there was Historical accuracy then it wouldn't be world of Russian tanks with so many British and German tanks sucking.

 

dude its russian game. in russia they believe make better electronics and more technologically advanced than japan lol.

BillT #151 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:25

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Jul 12 2018 - 13:14, said:

I think, what has happened ... is a form of expedient business 'scope creep' ... WG likely started out with a focus on war history buffs (that play games) ... then after it's success, decided on expanding the player demographic in order to 'grow' the game to higher levels of market insertion with consequent growth in profits.  Thus, WG has ended up with a game that is IMO, more than a bit schizophrenic in identity and intended player draw ... though to be fair, at present, it seems that WG is accellerating the pace of evolution away from the historical to what ever the greater masses will support in patronage and profit.

 

Based on their past statements, behavior, and the product they built, I think the WG staff includes a lot of "kindred spirits" -- tank history buffs who are fascinated by the details of historical tanks, just like me.  They found a way to make money doing what I've spent money to do for fun all my life.


I think about 20 years ago, they were probably sitting around thinking, "Man, it would be great if there were a video game simulator that let me drive WWII tanks and experience how they handled and fought."  I was sitting around thinking the same thing, and doing my best to get there with table-top simulations using miniature models and reams of data.  But they had computer skills and capital that I lacked, and the will to make it happen.  But they also realized that the number of people who were aching for such a detailed game was fairly small, and was shrinking year after year as WWII slides into history.  To make real money with their game they'd have to appeal to a wider audience, especially the younger crowd, which apparently is all about fast-paced action.  So they built something that's not a simulator, but is way beyond any arcade game in terms of complexity and accuracy, and it appealed to enough people to float the business.

 

And it may be that to continue surviving, WG will eventually have to betray its historical roots and embrace anime, sci-fi, simpler mechanics, eliminate RNG, or whatever.   Clearly that day has not yet come, and clearly they're resistant to doing that.  Otherwise we'd already have the Valkyria tanks on the NA server.



Deputy276 #152 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:27

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View PostBillT, on Jul 12 2018 - 13:08, said:

 

To me it's obvious.  Maybe that's because I've been around a long time and over the course of 30-odd years of computer game development, I've never seen another tank driving video game that tried so hard to be historical. 

WG went to a lot of expense to carefully model the real appearance of actual WWII tanks, down to the last weld and bolt.  That was a lot of effort to go through if they didn't think that kind of accuracy was valued by their customers.  Likewise they were diligent in details like the Panther having a "7.5 cm KWK 42", when they could have just said "75mm" or "75 L/70" or even "Attack Power 12".  They went to the extra effort to use the historical nomenclature.  They didn't need to make the Tiger's armor values exactly match the historical numbers (100 mm front, 80mm sides), but they did.  They didn't need to match each tank's actual crew configuration -- they could have just put five crew in all of them.  Who would care, except the history buffs?  Why didn't they include drawing-board tanks from the outset, and instead only added them later to fill gaps in the historical lines or because they ran out of ideas for premium tanks to sell? Then there's all the work they did to make the mechanics seem realistic; gun disperision, penetration mechanics that are different for AP, APDS, and HEAT, armor slope and angling, turret traverse rates, ground resistance...

 

It's all wasted effort if the customers don't care -- a lot -- about the appearance of historicity. 

 

They kinda "goofed" with the M10/Panther. The real ones actually had the Panther muzzle brakes still on them. The ones in-game have them sawn off. 

 



BillT #153 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:28

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View PostThe_Ice_Cream_Man_, on Jul 12 2018 - 14:23, said:

 

dude its russian game. in russia they believe make better electronics and more technologically advanced than japan lol.

 

"Wideo gaming was inwented in Russia, by old babushka in Petropavlovsk."

BillT #154 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:34

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View PostDeputy276, on Jul 12 2018 - 14:27, said:

 

They kinda "goofed" with the M10/Panther. The real ones actually had the Panther muzzle brakes still on them. The ones in-game have them sawn off. 

 

 

Good point.  That error would have gone unnoticed if WOT players weren't obsessed with historical accuracy.  Indeed, this obscure tank modification would never have been added to the game if a lot of the customers weren't history buffs.



Kenshin2kx #155 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:51

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View PostBillT, on Jul 12 2018 - 09:25, said:

 

Based on their past statements, behavior, and the product they built, I think the WG staff includes a lot of "kindred spirits" -- tank history buffs who are fascinated by the details of historical tanks, just like me.  They found a way to make money doing what I've spent money to do for fun all my life.


I think about 20 years ago, they were probably sitting around thinking, "Man, it would be great if there were a video game simulator that let me drive WWII tanks and experience how they handled and fought."  I was sitting around thinking the same thing, and doing my best to get there with table-top simulations using miniature models and reams of data.  But they had computer skills and capital that I lacked, and the will to make it happen.  But they also realized that the number of people who were aching for such a detailed game was fairly small, and was shrinking year after year as WWII slides into history.  To make real money with their game they'd have to appeal to a wider audience, especially the younger crowd, which apparently is all about fast-paced action.  So they built something that's not a simulator, but is way beyond any arcade game in terms of complexity and accuracy, and it appealed to enough people to float the business.

 

And it may be that to continue surviving, WG will eventually have to betray its historical roots and embrace anime, sci-fi, simpler mechanics, eliminate RNG, or whatever.   Clearly that day has not yet come, and clearly they're resistant to doing that.  Otherwise we'd already have the Valkyria tanks on the NA server.

 

I agree ... good summary with a model that fits nicely with what we see as WoT 2018.  As you pointed out, it makes even more sense if the original core team behind WoT were themselves to some degree historical/gaming buffs ... dreaming of a game that incorporated their interests as well as made money.  :great: 

Kenshin2kx #156 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:51

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View PostBillT, on Jul 12 2018 - 09:34, said:

 

Good point.  That error would have gone unnoticed if WOT players weren't obsessed with historical accuracy.  Indeed, this obscure tank modification would never have been added to the game if a lot of the customers weren't history buffs.

 

Hahaha Touche.

_Spade_ #157 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 21:53

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View PostBillT, on Jul 12 2018 - 14:28, said:

 

"Wideo gaming was inwented in Russia, by old babushka in Petropavlovsk."

 

Now that is an excellent reference.

Spoiler

Edited by _Spade_, Jul 12 2018 - 21:53.


Rush_91 #158 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 22:04

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View Post_Spade_, on Jul 12 2018 - 17:08, said:

 

You aren't being very consistent. You say you signed up for a game about historical tanks, then claim you don't want GuP tanks...when GuP uses historical tanks. In addition to all the napkin designs and "sekrit dokuments" tanks, there is at least one entire tank line that is purely fiction, and you don't so much as bat an eyelash. However you draw the line at the Edelweiss and would quit playing because then people will be having badwrongfun. I assure you, you won't be missed, and reiterate that there is another game almost custom made for what you want.

The Edelweiss isn't a GuP tank. Its from Valkyria Chronicles iirc. Consoles and blitz both got a premium GuP Pz. IV H that i would like to have tho.



BillT #159 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 22:36

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View Post_Spade_, on Jul 12 2018 - 15:53, said:

 

Now that is an excellent reference.

 

Hats off to you for recognizing it !



_Spade_ #160 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 22:41

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View PostRush_91, on Jul 12 2018 - 16:04, said:

The Edelweiss isn't a GuP tank. Its from Valkyria Chronicles iirc. Consoles and blitz both got a premium GuP Pz. IV H that i would like to have tho.

 

I'm aware. You may want to reread what was posted if you think that's what I was saying.




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