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WN9? Simple fix for WN8


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_Kradok_ #61 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 18:14

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View PostMacDaddyMatty, on Jul 12 2018 - 06:41, said:

 

 

When I need a break from WoT I play WoWP (since they gave me so many premium planes).  but I'm usually only interested for 2-3 matches, and then I go:

"BORED NOW".


 

I couldn't stomach WoWP.  I used to play "Aces of the Pacific" and the other early Aces games... but WoWP was simply stupid to me.  If I leave tanks, I usually jump on Diablo 3.



spud_tuber #62 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 18:34

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View PostArmorStorm, on Jul 12 2018 - 11:10, said:

 

Isn’t it those tabs that read “two ship” and “three ship” right next to “solo”?  

Ummm, the site he linked to isn't the API.  It only uses the API. I can see what those tabs do.  I am more interested in how the site gets its info and why no tanks stat site does the same. 

 

As such,  I looked at the documentation for the API for both ships and tanks.  I could easily and clearly find the calls needed to get separate stats for solo vs division play for ships.  I could find no such calls for tanks regarding platoons.



Tuzban #63 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:43

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View PostBavor, on Jul 11 2018 - 16:20, said:

WN9 is dead due to Wargaming not changing tank IDs when they changed tank tiers.  

 

http://forum.wotlabs.net/index.php?/topic/20669-wn9-candidate-prototype/

 

Also, they should change tank IDs when they change the tank. For example, arty got it's damage halved in the Big Arty Nerf, but the tank IDs stayed the same. Thus, it's practically impossible to get any wn8 with an arty anymore.

Whisky_A_Go_Go #64 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:13

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View Post_Kradok_, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:14, said:

I couldn't stomach WoWP.  I used to play "Aces of the Pacific" and the other early Aces games... but WoWP was simply stupid to me.  If I leave tanks, I usually jump on Diablo 3.

 

I had already been playing WT long before WoWP came out. There's simply no contest at all: WoWP was a complete, total and epic failure in every way. They rushed it to market under pressure for it to start making money long before it was even close to ready and it cost them dearly.

 

I play D3 as well. Great game, that one and has been for years. I just goof off with it. Ran a GR94 for the first time the other day. It was a blast.

 

View PostArmorStorm, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:10, said:

 

Isn’t it those tabs that read “two ship” and “three ship” right next to “solo”? 

 

Yes. Here's a quick example of Lert. He's a CC over there and a pretty good fellow. He's always admitted that one of the major keys to success is platooning and he's never made a great secret about that.

 

So here's Lert's All Combined stats - that means every single type of PvP game he's ever played combined:

 

It's actually very good. But lets take a look at 3 ship platooning:

 

Now, his rating doesn't go up a great deal at all, but WOW look at the win rate! It instantly jumps up 7%.

 

So now we look at 2 man :

 

Again, not a quantum leap of change in the rating, but the win rate instantly drops 5%. Then we look at pure solo, him all by his lonesome:

 

And suddenly it all falls off a cliff.

 

If it weren't for Lert playing just over 41% of every game he ever played in a platoon, his overall stats would not look anywhere near as impressive as his solo stats are.

 

The game (and every game made by Wargaming) has been and always will be programmed for platoons for success. That's been the secret of tankers all along. That's why a great many brag about their solo stats and the like when fact is they know you can't really check it because Wargaming doesn't allow it on tanks.

 

It's like the spotting statistics and the like that people have always wanted to use in figuring Wn8 - they exist. Wargaming has all of that. They simply block it so it can't be accessed through the API. It was done that way from the beginning.

 

The only reason they didn't block in all in Warships was because they saw what an absolute mess the whole stat [edited]thing created in World of Tanks, so they figured by showing everything in ships, it would cut down on the stat nonsense.

 

It didn't. At all.



MacDaddyMatty #65 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:24

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View PostTuzban, on Jul 12 2018 - 13:43, said:

 

Also, they should change tank IDs when they change the tank. For example, arty got it's damage halved in the Big Arty Nerf, but the tank IDs stayed the same. Thus, it's practically impossible to get any wn8 with an arty anymore.

 

Couldn't they have delineated the stat by date?

Games prior to X-date = A.

Games after X-date = B.

?


Edited by MacDaddyMatty, Jul 12 2018 - 20:26.


BillT #66 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 22:53

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View PostMacDaddyMatty, on Jul 12 2018 - 14:24, said:

 

Couldn't they have delineated the stat by date?

Games prior to X-date = A.

Games after X-date = B.

?

 

I think it ends up the same either way.  Suppose you played a Hummel before and after 9.18.  Then your personal profile would have two lines for the Hummel; pre-nerf and post-nerf.  It wouldn't matter if the split was handled by XVM, or by WG changing the vehicle ID. And then anyone who wants to know how well you play the Hummel really has to look at both entries and decide how to average them.

I imagine the XVM people just don't want the hassle of maintaining all those dates for, potentially, every tank in the game, nor the risk of making a mistake when they do it.  It would work better as the OP suggested, if WG just changed the vehicle ID whenever there's a major change to its performance.  Still, even that's a judgement call.  Re-labeling all SPGs after 9.18, sure.  But what if they change the characteristics of a single gun, like the 88 L/56.  Do they start a new ID number for every tank that can carry that gun?  Is that worth basically re-starting everyone's stats?  Probably not -- folks won't like it.  "I was at 94% on my third MOE, and you jerks changed the vehicle ID.  Now I have to start over!"   Should all the vehicles have received new IDs when WOT 1.0 was released?  What if they introduce a new map (let's call it "Schmaris") that's great for heavy tanks and lousy for every other class?

I think there's no good answer, but some answers are worse than others. :-)  

spud_tuber #67 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 23:38

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View PostWhisky_A_Go_Go, on Jul 12 2018 - 09:23, said:

 

It didn't guess. It used the API and knew it. What they tried to do was make a "platoon padding" stat to try to hide how much they platooned. What that stat was supposed to do was say, "Well, even though this guy platoons 90% of his games, he only gets carried by the other guys he's in the platoon with 50% of the time".

 

But they couldn't make it work for a lot of the guys that spent most of their time getting carried, so they axed it entirely.

 

View PostWhisky_A_Go_Go, on Jul 12 2018 - 13:13, said:

*snip*

 

The game (and every game made by Wargaming) has been and always will be programmed for platoons for success. That's been the secret of tankers all along. That's why a great many brag about their solo stats and the like when fact is they know you can't really check it because Wargaming doesn't allow it on tanks.

 

It's like the spotting statistics and the like that people have always wanted to use in figuring Wn8 - they exist. Wargaming has all of that. They simply block it so it can't be accessed through the API. It was done that way from the beginning.

 

The only reason they didn't block in all in Warships was because they saw what an absolute mess the whole stat [edited]thing created in World of Tanks, so they figured by showing everything in ships, it would cut down on the stat nonsense.

 

It didn't. At all.

 

Interesting self contradiction there. Bolded the most interesting tidbits. So, are platoon stats available to WN9 through the API or not?  And if not, will you be retracting your earlier statement regarding whether WN9 had to guess at platoon rate?



Whisky_A_Go_Go #68 Posted Jul 13 2018 - 12:29

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View Postspud_tuber, on Jul 12 2018 - 17:38, said:

Interesting self contradiction there. Bolded the most interesting tidbits. So, are platoon stats available to WN9 through the API or not?  And if not, will you be retracting your earlier statement regarding whether WN9 had to guess at platoon rate?

 

Yes and no.

 

Yes you can access it if Wargaming allows it, which they allowed team XVM and a few others to do and part of how Wn9 was being worked on.

 

No, not just anybody can access it.

 

On World of Warships though, it's allowed to be accessed by everybody.



NeatoMan #69 Posted Jul 13 2018 - 13:30

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View PostWhisky_A_Go_Go, on Jul 13 2018 - 06:29, said:

 

Yes and no.

 

Yes you can access it if Wargaming allows it, which they allowed team XVM and a few others to do and part of how Wn9 was being worked on.

 

No, not just anybody can access it.

 

On World of Warships though, it's allowed to be accessed by everybody.

Yes, anybody can access the WoT API.   I've accessed it, and there is nothing in there about platoons/non-platooned games.  The only method to currently get this info is if you have vbaddict's active uploader running in the background when you play.



Whisky_A_Go_Go #70 Posted Jul 13 2018 - 13:37

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View PostNeatoMan, on Jul 13 2018 - 07:30, said:

Yes, anybody can access the WoT API.   I've accessed it, and there is nothing in there about platoons/non-platooned games. 

 

Because they don't allow it on Tanks.

 

You do grasp the concept that it is THEIR data and they can pick and choose which parts of that data to give the public access to, don't you?

 

It's the same exact reason many people wanted other stats made a part of the overall Wn8 ratings but they simply couldn't do it because at the time Wargaming didn't allow access to it. It's not that they don't have it, it's that they simply don't make it available to the general public via the API.



NeatoMan #71 Posted Jul 13 2018 - 13:41

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View PostWhisky_A_Go_Go, on Jul 13 2018 - 07:37, said:

Because they don't allow it on Tanks.

You do grasp the concept that it is THEIR data and they can pick and choose which parts of that data to give the public access to, don't you?

I've gone into their API.  It's not there.  It's not not because they only allow a select few to see that info.  It's simply not there,  XVM and WN8 makers can't get it either   They are accessing the same things that you or I can access.  They don't get a special pass.

 

WoWS had the benefit of setting up their API based on previous experience with WoT.  WoT didn't have it in the beginning, and haven't added it not because they can't, or want to hide anything.  They are simply too damn lazy. 



Kliphie #72 Posted Jul 13 2018 - 14:04

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View PostWhisky_A_Go_Go, on Jul 12 2018 - 06:46, said:

Wn9 was abandoned over a year ago. Not one single thing has been done to it since then.

 

The reason for that is simple: Wn9 was going to show stats from solo play, clan wars play, platoon playing and other things of that nature much like World of Warships does.

 

The unicums didn't want that to happen at all because it would be painfully clear to see that most of their win rates and stats don't come from solo random pub matches, but rather strongholds, power platooning non stop and things of that nature.

 

So they let it die a quiet death.

 

View PostWhisky_A_Go_Go, on Jul 13 2018 - 07:37, said:

 

Because they don't allow it on Tanks.

 

You do grasp the concept that it is THEIR data and they can pick and choose which parts of that data to give the public access to, don't you?

 

It's the same exact reason many people wanted other stats made a part of the overall Wn8 ratings but they simply couldn't do it because at the time Wargaming didn't allow access to it. It's not that they don't have it, it's that they simply don't make it available to the general public via the API.

 

So did they drop WN9 development due to pressure from Uni's to not do what they couldn't do, or because they were unable to do it in the first place?  

 

This is very confusing  :amazed:



spud_tuber #73 Posted Jul 13 2018 - 15:23

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View PostWhisky_A_Go_Go, on Jul 13 2018 - 05:29, said:

 

Yes and no.

 

Yes you can access it if Wargaming allows it, which they allowed team XVM and a few others to do and part of how Wn9 was being worked on.

 

No, not just anybody can access it.

 

On World of Warships though, it's allowed to be accessed by everybody.

I call BS.  You're making up more lies to try to cover your ealier lies or ignorance.  Proof, or get out. 

 

No one has been able to access platoon info from the API, and it is possible that WG doesn't even store such stats separately for tanks.  Even if they did, you can bet it wouldn't separate dynamic from pre existing platoons, which would make it of limited value anyway.



Hurk #74 Posted Jul 13 2018 - 17:41

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frankly, they just need to change WN8 to a rolling 90 day average instead of all time. 

I already have it setup in game to show me Per Tank rankings on the team rosters and Per Player + Per tank on the Tab view of the rosters. allows you to instantly judge how well a player will play in that given match and tank. I also use battle count per tank so i know if they are new to it or not. 


Edited by Hurk, Jul 13 2018 - 17:42.





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