Jump to content


SBMM -- Many Arguments Against!


  • Please log in to reply
55 replies to this topic

Siege_Engine #1 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 18:48

    First lieutenant

  • -Players-
  • 9735 battles
  • 917
  • [CNCRD] CNCRD
  • Member since:
    01-26-2015

I've been following a couple of threads that have devolved into arguments about the need for SBMM, and against.  Why does it always go there?  Seems like almost any debate in these forums ends up with people who are not satisfied with "random" match making.  Despite this, there are people who just as forcefully argue against SBMM.  

 

The Super Bowl, the World Series, the Stanley Cup, the FIFA World Cup, the NBA Championship, and so on ....  are ALL skill based contests.  None of these are matched at "random".   They are great games!  I think this is the basic argument for SBMM.  

 

Yet, there are others who favor "random" match making.  I would expect to see them argue that these Skill Based matches aren't desirable because they:

 

  • Punish good players
  • Are the "nail in the coffin" for their games
  • Entitle the players 
  • Are impossible to select with their limited player base
  • Are impossible to select with so many variables
  • Carry bad players
  • Cause a negative outlook for the players
  • Are less interesting for the players
  • Are too easy for the players
  • Hand out wins to bad players


 

Perhaps when other threads predictably devolve into arguments about "random" vs SBMM, then we can just point to this thread as a kind of summary of the main points.  We can avoid having to detract from other threads by regurgitating all of the arguments.  



_Tsavo_ #2 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 18:54

    Major

  • Players
  • 40573 battles
  • 16,462
  • [PBKAC] PBKAC
  • Member since:
    02-16-2011

I wouldn't be against a skill-based mode with much smaller teams.

 

In the 15 v 15 randoms, it's too much and too little to do SBMM.  Both sides are passionate, and both sides are quick to go to attacking a poster and not the content of the post.



cloudwalkr #3 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:01

    Major

  • Players
  • 53844 battles
  • 4,499
  • Member since:
    04-05-2011
...

Edited by cloudwalkr, Jul 12 2018 - 19:05.


Mikosah #4 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:12

    Major

  • Players
  • 17562 battles
  • 3,739
  • Member since:
    01-24-2013

Whether or not SBMM is implemented is far less important than a few much simpler issues- for instance whether or not 3/5/7 remains in effect. And another is how much dependence is placed on the team. As things are now, there's a massive level of team-dependence and naturally its no fun at all when your options are limited not by the enemy but by your own team. The knee-jerk reaction has been to go for SBMM in the hope that it'll make your team better, but even if it worked as necessary this problem wouldn't be significantly affected. A bad team will still take bad positions and make you miserable, even if the enemy team is just as bad. 

 

A much more relevant solution would simply be reducing team sizes. If the normal format was 10v10, imagine how much less crowding there would be for the few viable routes and positions in each map. And if there is more unoccupied space, suddenly by extension there's new viable routes and more room to maneuver. And smaller teams also means that the snowball factor would also be reduced. 



Fireplace4 #5 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:26

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 29435 battles
  • 406
  • [HARM] HARM
  • Member since:
    11-05-2011

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:48, said:

The Super Bowl, the World Series, the Stanley Cup, the FIFA World Cup, the NBA Championship, and so on ....  are ALL skill based contests. 

Yes BUT... Those players earned their way there, also they get to play MORE games as they win. If it were in world of tanks then both ends of the bell curve would get into much fewer games



Buttknuckle #6 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:26

    Major

  • Players
  • 44920 battles
  • 2,220
  • [GOONZ] GOONZ
  • Member since:
    03-19-2013

The sport analogy for pub matches is just stupid. All of those events you mention are participated in by cohesive teams of chosen players that played together through a season. Here in pubs there is no team cohesiveness with new teams compiled for each game.

 

If you must use a sport analogy a better one would be a local race circuit open to everyone, where its you against a bunch of other racers of varying skill and equipment, each of which may or may not compete in every race. The best guys in the circuit are those with the most wins.



Kenshin2kx #7 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:27

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 17887 battles
  • 5,930
  • Member since:
    07-20-2014

View Post_Tsavo_, on Jul 12 2018 - 07:54, said:

I wouldn't be against a skill-based mode with much smaller teams.

 

In the 15 v 15 randoms, it's too much and too little to do SBMM.  Both sides are passionate, and both sides are quick to go to attacking a poster and not the content of the post.

 

Similar thought here ... I would suggest to WG that SBMM should be encouraged and promoted in the "Clan" paradigm ... where controlled affiliation is the basis for the organization.

 

Now on the opposite end of the spectrum, I would encourage WG to make pubs EVEN MORE RANDOM ... i.e. closer to true randomness.  My logic in this?  Simply the comparative model ... Professional sports is for all intents and purposes = Skill Based Match Making.  So, this begs the question what is its opposite?  Well, we have Pub Matches, also aptly called "Randoms" ... now take this one step further  and make Pubs = True Randoms (within reason of course) so no 1 vs 35 and the like ... The result for Pub Matches?

 

1.  Far greater gaming variance due to a dynamic roster that minimizes 'rote' formula doldrums ..

2.  The elimination of the existing frictions regarding vehicle class inclusion/numbers/bias ...

3.  Wider inclusive MM should help to speed up match making ...

4.  Greater dynamic inclusion should make it harder to premeditatively 'seal club' as a regularized and predictable goal/function.

 

Now as a motivator/value enhancer,  particularly in matches that randomize for a large disparity, there should also be a formula to bump up earnings and attainable experience points per level of manifest disparity (great risk = great reward model)


Edited by Kenshin2kx, Jul 12 2018 - 19:37.


Pipinghot #8 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:30

    Major

  • Players
  • 25960 battles
  • 8,387
  • [IOC] IOC
  • Member since:
    11-20-2011

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:48, said:

Seems like almost any debate in these forums ends up with people who are not satisfied with "random" match making.

The instant that you put quotes around random you lose all credibility. You have just lumped yourself in with the tin foil hat crowd and negated yourself as a person who uses logic, reasoning and critical thinking.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:48, said:

The Super Bowl, the World Series, the Stanley Cup, the FIFA World Cup, the NBA Championship, and so on ....  are ALL skill based contests.  None of these are matched at "random".   They are great games!  I think this is the basic argument for SBMM.

False comparison. Those are all championships at the end of a season for professional leagues that begin their season with a draft, who train together all season and play together all season. They have absolutely nothing in common with Public battles. Your argument is a self-defeating non-starter.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:48, said:

  • Punish good players

No, you have that backwards. SBMM punishes good players by forcing them to have an average win rate, Random battles allow people to earn their win rate based on their skill and contribution to their teams.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:48, said:

  • Are the "nail in the coffin" for their games

Better players win more often, that's the opposite of a "nail in the coffin" for good players.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:48, said:

  • Entitle the players 
Entitle which players? To what? You haven't said anything here, now you're just using gibberish trying to masquerade as a sentence.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:48, said:

  • Are impossible to select with their limited player base
  • Are impossible to select with so many variables

Neither of those points are true.

 

The MM successfully selects for the criteria that WG has chosen to include in the MM (balancing the number of arty, and other classes, for example), and the MM successfully ignores the criteria that WG wants to ignore so that they can honestly be random battles (like ignoring skill when building teams).

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:48, said:

  • Carry bad players

Almost all players who are actually good understand that it's their job to carry, that's the price they pay for having a higher win rate. There are some exceptions, but the vast majority of good players like being good, and they understand that if they want to be above average they have to carry their teams more than other people do.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:48, said:

  • Cause a negative outlook for the players

Players who already have a negative outlook are looking for something to blame. That happens in every game, no matter what kind of MM they use. People who think they're better than they really are will always find something to blame other than themselves. Every competitive game of skill that has ever existed has had players who complain about the matchmaking system for their game.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:48, said:

  • Are less interesting for the players
Just the opposite. The Random MM offers more variety than SBMM would, and that makes it more interesting than SBMM.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:48, said:

  • Are too easy for the players

If that was true there wouldn't be so many people complaining. The root cause for complaints in this game is that it's hard to win, and it's hard to raise your win rate, because this is a pure PvP game. No one ever complains that the game is too easy.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:48, said:

  • Hand out wins to bad players

SBMM would hand out more wins to bad players, and it would do so by stealing wins from good players.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:48, said:

Perhaps when other threads predictably devolve into arguments about "random" vs SBMM, then we can just point to this thread as a kind of summary of the main points.  We can avoid having to detract from other threads by regurgitating all of the arguments.  

You're about 8 years too late. Your OP is nothing more than regurgitating the same arguments that have been tried many times before. There is nothing new, nothing insightful, nothing about this thread that makes it stand out in any way from all of the other SBMM threads.

 

Your attempt to make a pretense of doing something new, different or original is an insult to everyone who bothers to read your OP. It's shocking that you thought you could somehow fool or trick people into thinking your OP was anything more than rehashing old, tired nonsense.


Edited by Pipinghot, Jul 12 2018 - 21:01.


BattlecryGWJ #9 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:32

    Major

  • Players
  • 34854 battles
  • 7,323
  • [RSRDD] RSRDD
  • Member since:
    12-20-2011

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 11:48, said:

The Super Bowl, the World Series, the Stanley Cup, the FIFA World Cup, the NBA Championship, and so on ....  are ALL skill based contests.  None of these are matched at "random".

 

Fair enough, but those examples are limited invitational tournaments and the players on those teams have all gone through random match making on the way to those premier tournaments and those players will often still tend to be known for playing pick up games in their old and new neighborhoods.  Random battles isn't a limited invitational tournament, they're the school yard where everyone gets to play with whatever they want, whenever they want, and that means dealing with players who are a lot better or a lot worse than you are.



NeatoMan #10 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:37

    Major

  • Players
  • 25574 battles
  • 17,102
  • Member since:
    06-28-2011
Any argument that involves professional sports must begin with the acknowledgement that pro sports are skill bracketed first and foremost.

The idea that Joe couch potato can seriously compete on the same playing field as pro athletes is laughable. They'd simply end up as spectators on the field or get trampled as they get in the way of the much more skilled participants.

Pro sports is always a bad analogy for skill balanced MM.

Fireplace4 #11 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:43

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 29435 battles
  • 406
  • [HARM] HARM
  • Member since:
    11-05-2011

View PostKenshin2kx, on Jul 12 2018 - 13:27, said:

 

Similar thought here ... I would suggest to WG that SBMM should be encouraged and promoted in the "Clan" paradigm ... where controlled affiliation is the basis for the organization.

 

Now on the opposite end of the spectrum, I would encourage WG to make pubs EVEN MORE RANDOM ... i.e. closer to true randomness.  My logic in this?  Simply the comparative model ... Professional sports is for all intents and purposes = Skill Based Match Making.  So, this begs the question what is its opposite?  Well, we have Pub Matches, also aptly called "Randoms" ... now take this one step further  and make Pubs = True Randoms (within reason of course) so no 1 vs 35 and the like ... The result for Pub Matches?

 

1.  Far greater gaming variance due to a dynamic roster that minimizes 'rote' formula doldrums ..

2.  The elimination of the existing frictions regarding vehicle class inclusion/numbers/bias ...

3.  Wider inclusive MM should help to speed up match making ...

4.  Greater dynamic inclusion should make it harder to premeditatively 'seal club' as a regularized and predictable goal/function.

 

Now as a motivator/value enhancer,  particularly in matches that randomize for a large disparity, there should also be a formula to bump up earnings and attainable experience points per level of manifest disparity (great risk = great reward model)

 

it used to be far more random, much larger tier spreads, no accounting for the type of tank, shots flew equally to any point within the reticule instead of more often to the middle, and more that I can't remember. It was not good haha, being in a tier 4 pz 38 na trying to pen IS-3's and the like was not fun. We're in a much better place than we werr

Kenshin2kx #12 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:55

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 17887 battles
  • 5,930
  • Member since:
    07-20-2014

View PostFireplace4, on Jul 12 2018 - 08:43, said:

 

it used to be far more random, much larger tier spreads, no accounting for the type of tank, shots flew equally to any point within the reticule instead of more often to the middle, and more that I can't remember. It was not good haha, being in a tier 4 pz 38 na trying to pen IS-3's and the like was not fun. We're in a much better place than we werr

 

I wasn't around for the really early MM ... I observed from about 2013 or so ... so my question would be -  Did the MM of that period have a consistency to its formula of MM?  i.e. did it spell out something like +/- 3 or 4 tiers?   If so, then my model would differ in that the goal would be greater 'real world' randomness ... in tier class AND in numbers ... so instead of a fixed 15 vs. 15 ... it could be 12 vs 14  (where there could be an equalizer in the most extreme throws of the dice).

 

I am guessing that if true randomness were increased ... there would still be blow outs, but they would be closer to a RL "$hit happens" statistic ... with an equivalent 'accidentally positive' flip of the mm coin.


Edited by Kenshin2kx, Jul 12 2018 - 19:59.


SkaerKrow #13 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 19:57

    Captain

  • Beta Testers
  • 16969 battles
  • 1,228
  • Member since:
    09-24-2010

View Post_Tsavo_, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:54, said:

I wouldn't be against a skill-based mode with much smaller teams.

 

In the 15 v 15 randoms, it's too much and too little to do SBMM.  Both sides are passionate, and both sides are quick to go to attacking a poster and not the content of the post.

 

I agree completely.

Awestryker #14 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:03

    Major

  • Players
  • 25154 battles
  • 2,663
  • Member since:
    01-15-2013

JUST make 5/10 and 15/15 MM priority over 3/5/7, problem solved...

 

Right now, people complain most about 3/5/7 because you get 1 or 2 tomatoes in the top 3 on either team, and its 7 or 8 wasted minutes because its most likely a landslide for one team or the other...

 

 



Awestryker #15 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:07

    Major

  • Players
  • 25154 battles
  • 2,663
  • Member since:
    01-15-2013

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 12:48, said:

The Super Bowl, the World Series, the Stanley Cup, the FIFA World Cup, the NBA Championship, and so on ....  are ALL skill based contests.  None of these are matched at "random".   They are great games!  I think this is the basic argument for SBMM.  

 

What you just described there above, is the equivalent of the WoT gold, silver or bronze leagues...in other words, the finals...you are not describing everyday pub matches...

 

Is every NFL game "the super bowl"? No...just at the end of the season...after the good teams got to beat up all the weaker teams, over and over...Same for all the other sports you mentioned...

 

Guess how those weaker teams/players in the NFL (and other sports) get better, by losing and learning from those loses...

 

 

 


Edited by Awestryker, Jul 12 2018 - 20:09.


Benjeeh_CA #16 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:30

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 29882 battles
  • 661
  • [DBLTP] DBLTP
  • Member since:
    04-18-2012

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 09:48, said:

The Super Bowl, the World Series, the Stanley Cup, the FIFA World Cup, the NBA Championship, and so on ....  are ALL skill based contests.  None of these are matched at "random".   They are great games!  I think this is the basic argument for SBMM.  

 

can't get out of quote block on my phone.

we have tournaments and WG league those are more comparable to these. Random MM is more like gym class or a group of people at a park. Personally I dislike SBMM only because I see it as catering to laziness, it's like where I live the passing grade is now 40% and no government exams. An excuse to not care is how I see it and its frustrating to me. Hope this makes sense as break is almost over.



Fireplace4 #17 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:41

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 29435 battles
  • 406
  • [HARM] HARM
  • Member since:
    11-05-2011
Also, if you're a meh player how are you supposed to ever get better if you only play against other meh players or with other meh players?

Nunya_000 #18 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:46

    Major

  • Players
  • 20974 battles
  • 11,965
  • [PACNW] PACNW
  • Member since:
    09-20-2013

View PostSiege_Engine, on Jul 12 2018 - 09:48, said:

 

The Super Bowl, the World Series, the Stanley Cup, the FIFA World Cup, the NBA Championship, and so on ....  are ALL skill based contests.  None of these are matched at "random".   They are great games!  I think this is the basic argument for SBMM.  

 

 

This is a very poor analogy.  In WOT, the teams are not comprised to fight multiple battles.  It is a bunch on individuals put together to fight ONE battle.  ClanWars would be a better comparison to professional sports....though even then it is not very similar.

 

Block Quote

Yet, there are others who favor "random" match making.  I would expect to see them argue that these Skill Based matches aren't desirable because they:

 

  • Punish good players
  • Are the "nail in the coffin" for their games
  • Entitle the players 
  • Are impossible to select with their limited player base
  • Are impossible to select with so many variables
  • Carry bad players
  • Cause a negative outlook for the players
  • Are less interesting for the players
  • Are too easy for the players
  • Hand out wins to bad players

 

You might want to add "Potential for Increased queue times" and ""move all players towards the mean".
 

 



SovietMemeBear #19 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:51

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 23225 battles
  • 959
  • [YOUJO] YOUJO
  • Member since:
    03-22-2012

Almost like there is a game mode where players are RANKED based on their performance, and can attain a higher RANK the better they preform. 

 

:sceptic:

 

And almost like what everyone is talking about here is RANDOM, and doesn't take player skill into account. it RANDOMly selects teams based on the tanks in queue. 

 

:facepalm:



Kenshin2kx #20 Posted Jul 12 2018 - 20:57

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 17887 battles
  • 5,930
  • Member since:
    07-20-2014
hahaha ... +1 for your refreshing directness.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users