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Beating the Horse....XVM ruins perspective

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QuisicalGod_GW #1 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 07:23

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So it has been said many times, but recently someone in a game I had said something about the game being rigged (per usual) because they lost the last 8/10 games & only won the 2. They were upset with the game, and felt that the matchmaker was simply dolling out skilled teams against weaker teams. I spoke both in-game about it and messaged another in that game as well talking about how the game itself wasn't rigged & so forth and so on.

 

Now onto the big deal, the horse known as XVM

I know a lot of people use XVM, for one reason or another, but in reference to the above blurp about my previous game. XVM, like the game, has a set algorithm in order to calculate its probability of winning %. While I wont bad talk said programing because it isnt that the code is bad or anything of the sort. But that type of software is inherently flawed. As it does not account for player actions or decisions. This applies to the game as well, it may feel as though it is stacking very skilled players against very bad players, but one bad choice from one person, skilled or unskilled, can affect the entire game. We have all had this happen at one point or another. 

 

My point from all of this, is that the chance of you winning a game, or losing a game is affected by a multitude of factors that are calculate for and the game/XVM may try to account for these things hence what feels like the match maker rigging games or XVM giving you that abysmal <15% win probability. But the things these do not account for are the statistically bad players, that we as a community call "tomatoes" (Not all use the term, but those that do, you know who you are), seemingly performing very very well under high stress situations or doing very well through a few games because they made the right judgment call or moved to aid a flank on a map. Or even the statistically good players (even those that get that fancy "Unicum" tag from XVM because their name is purple) making dreadful choices because they over estimate their own skill or underestimate their oppenent because they are considered weaker due to their skill bracket.

 

So whats this really for?

Now all of this isn't to damn those who use XVM, or damn the upper/lower echelon of players. I honestly just dislike the idea we have as a community of the game rigging our matches. We win some and we lose some. But don't be upset if you're on that losing streak or you end up getting whacked off the winning streak. It will happen to us all. We all have days where we play 50 games, win 45, lose 5 & then play 10 more but lose all 10. But the very next day we have the opposite performance.

 

It all comes down to mindset ladies and gents. If you're having a bunch of bad games, take a break. If you're doing really well, still take a break. Dont get overconfident and doom your team for your mistake, but also don't damn you team mate who makes that poor choice in a game for the same thing you may have very well done yourself. Try and bring up your fellow tanker, not damn them or yourself.

 

With that, Signing off here.

V/R

QuisicalGod_WG

Formerly Fegalein



Christojojo #2 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 07:37

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XVM is not for short minded players. IT is a helpful tool. IT tells me who to aim for and who not to  trust on my team. a 40% player after 10k or so game sis not to be trusted a 49%+ or so player with a good win rate in his/her current tank is not a worry. But what worries me is the arty with 59% win rate in the arty he/she is playing. Saying to a team laced in its own blood (just recently I had 9 players at or below40% for all their  games) I might say hoping above alll hopes that they read and learn. Dont rush out and die it hasn't worked for you in the past, why do it again? Do not blame xvm on quitters they have quit every game i played some times fo rht elame thing as they didn't like the map they were on other times because of the team had two more deaths than they liked other because of the comments

Silversound #3 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 07:42

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I just hit my thumb with a hammer.... we really need to ban hammers!



_Gungrave_ #4 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 07:55

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Just implement the option to make stats private while in a match and have it set to private by default. If that is done then XVM becomes unreliable because good players can keep their stats private to prevent any XVM focus/sniping and bad players can potentially avoid any sort of stat shaming.

 

View PostChristojojo, on Aug 04 2018 - 07:37, said:

XVM is not for short minded players. IT is a helpful tool. IT tells me who to aim for and who not to  trust on my team. a 40% player after 10k or so game sis not to be trusted a 49%+ or so player with a good win rate in his/her current tank is not a worry. But what worries me is the arty with 59% win rate in the arty he/she is playing. Saying to a team laced in its own blood (just recently I had 9 players at or below40% for all their  games) I might say hoping above alll hopes that they read and learn. Dont rush out and die it hasn't worked for you in the past, why do it again? Do not blame xvm on quitters they have quit every game i played some times fo rht elame thing as they didn't like the map they were on other times because of the team had two more deaths than they liked other because of the comments

 

Generally stats are good when used as a metric to gauge how well you're playing the game but it should stop at that. I think they should have no involvement in battle whatsoever and its not like they're needed. I've played with XVM years ago and vanilla for the past 3 to 4 years and it doesn't take long to know which player/s I should be weary of based upon how they play,



NeatoMan #5 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 08:40

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View PostQuisicalGod_GW, on Aug 04 2018 - 01:23, said:

Now onto the big deal, the horse known as XVM

I know a lot of people use XVM, for one reason or another, but in reference to the above blurp about my previous game. XVM, like the game, has a set algorithm in order to calculate its probability of winning %. While I wont bad talk said programing because it isnt that the code is bad or anything of the sort. But that type of software is inherently flawed. As it does not account for player actions or decisions. This applies to the game as well, it may feel as though it is stacking very skilled players against very bad players, but one bad choice from one person, skilled or unskilled, can affect the entire game. We have all had this happen at one point or another.

It's a lot like stats in baseball.  Of course players may strike out in clutch situations, but a good hitter will get on base, or drive in runs more often than bad players do in those situations.  There is a reason why analytics is widely used in baseball.  Over the length of a season it becomes a game of probabilities, and that's all that XVM is doing. 



QuisicalGod_GW #6 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 08:40

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View PostChristojojo, on Aug 04 2018 - 06:37, said:

XVM is not for short minded players. IT is a helpful tool. IT tells me who to aim for and who not to  trust on my team. a 40% player after 10k or so game sis not to be trusted a 49%+ or so player with a good win rate in his/her current tank is not a worry. But what worries me is the arty with 59% win rate in the arty he/she is playing. Saying to a team laced in its own blood (just recently I had 9 players at or below40% for all their  games) I might say hoping above alll hopes that they read and learn. Dont rush out and die it hasn't worked for you in the past, why do it again? Do not blame xvm on quitters they have quit every game i played some times fo rht elame thing as they didn't like the map they were on other times because of the team had two more deaths than they liked other because of the comments

 

I apologize if I wasn't clear with my end point there. If you will, allow me to try and clarify myself. While I agree that XVM can be helpful, it shouldnt be a matter of needing/using it as a tool to find the best guy in the game. Generally speaking those players tend to show how good they actually are via their play through said match. For example, I myself sit around 1000 wn8, which is slightly above average. But I have had games where Im pulling the weight on my team because the guys with their well above average stats are getting their behinds handed to them via XVM sniping. Or they get unlucky/crash etc (again, we have literally all had a bad lag spike and poof, drowned or crashed/flipped. Rest in peace for the fallen) Even still, Ive been playing 7 years, had a long 4 year break from the game, upgraded my system got a little older and a little better. And my stats over xyz time show it. Just because someone has bad displayed stats, doesn't mean they haven't already played 100 games and learned. The stats are slow to reflect the change if you have a large number of games under your belt is what I mean by this. (Roughly 3000 battles and you're talking 30 games, of perfect improvement to reflect the stat change. That is a hard feat for anyone, not just newer people) So give them a chance, they may get into a situation where they haven't been able to adapt properly. Hell the Object 263 when it was first introduced (and still prior/post to the Tier shift) people don't know how to handle it because it isn't seen often. Now someone may take time to go learn the weak points, while others wont. Those who do not, simply take a few shots that seem to be of no use to you or those watching, but to the man/woman firing that gun it's them trying to learn in-game how to improve themselves against a foe/situation.

 

Addendum - And I do not. Will not. Blame XVM for the people who quit battles initially due to low % win probability. That is not the softwares fault, that is the fault of the player for making a conscious choice to screw over their team / themselves and further sink said chances of winning. Again that is a Player problem, not the software. Do not confuse the two.

 

Again, I apologize if my initial or end points weren't clear. That's a mistake I would like to correct here or at any point if someone has comments on how I may do so and/or input of their own.



Bilderberger #7 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 09:03

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There will always be griefers.  Whether it be xvm griefers or arty griefers. Had a dude just turn around and TK arty the other day.  

I run xvm but don't activate player stats (team list is stock), so I just use it to have the excellent garage mods (carousel stats, bino/camo auto return, tank stats) and to tweak the zoom out, amount a few other tweaks.  So peeps can still use it for the mods and not have all the xvm colors in game.

Fractured_Raptor #8 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 09:12

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I don't see why XVM is even allowed. WarGaming said that unless the information is readily available to a player in the battle ... it's illegal. To my knowledge you can't just look at the match and tell who is what color, not without that mod. So are they being hypocrites? 

Edited by Fractured_Raptor, Aug 04 2018 - 09:12.


DrWho_ #9 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 09:41

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XVM out of the box doesn't have win chance enabled, mine don't show that and if it did I would turn it off, so those grieving about that at the start of the game are people actively looking for it. 

 

 

Because of the nature of this game it's a fairly useless feature and even if it wasn't I fail to understand what good that bit does other than cause grief to those who are clueless.

 

Nothing wrong with XVM, blame the bad users



ket101 #10 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 09:56

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XVM doesn't offer win % chance any more.  They took it off.  If someone has a % mod, then it isn't XVM.  You could make a guess from the stats of the players, but it's not XVM calculating that.

Pipinghot #11 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 11:31

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View PostQuisicalGod_GW, on Aug 04 2018 - 01:23, said:

Now onto the big deal, the horse known as XVM

I know a lot of people use XVM, for one reason or another, but in reference to the above blurp about my previous game. XVM, like the game, has a set algorithm in order to calculate its probability of winning %.

No. That's wrong, the game does not do anything to calculate the probability of winning, in fact the game explicitly avoids calculating the probability of winning. The MM puts teams together with no interest at all in the probability of winning, that's exactly what makes the MM random. WG built the MM to be random, which is the opposite of rigged.

View PostQuisicalGod_GW, on Aug 04 2018 - 01:23, said:

While I wont bad talk said programing because it isnt that the code is bad or anything of the sort. But that type of software is inherently flawed. As it does not account for player actions or decisions.

Of course it does, that's why there is a probability of winning, rather than a certainty of winning. If you roll a pair of dice you have a 16.67% probability of rolling a 7, it's never guaranteed. And if you play a game of WoT you have a % probability of winning or losing, it's never guaranteed either way.

View PostQuisicalGod_GW, on Aug 04 2018 - 01:23, said:

My point from all of this, is that the chance of you winning a game, or losing a game is affected by a multitude of factors that are calculate for and the game/XVM may try to account for these things hence what feels like the match maker rigging games or XVM giving you that abysmal <15% win probability.

Again, the game does nothing of the sort. The MM completely ignores skill, which is intentional. The MM never tries to create battles with any specific odds of winning, it picks the teams based on the rules that are built in to it, and none of those rules have anything to do with player skill.

 

And what XVM does is look at the overall stats for every players on both teams (after the MM has built the teams) and then it calculates a probability of winning or losing, whether a team wins or loses is up to the players.

View PostQuisicalGod_GW, on Aug 04 2018 - 01:23, said:

So whats this really for?

Now all of this isn't to damn those who use XVM, or damn the upper/lower echelon of players. I honestly just dislike the idea we have as a community of the game rigging our matches.

But we don't have rigging of our matches, and that's the point that people need to understand. If the MM gave everyone good matches all the time, if the odds were always between 40%-60% chance of winning, that would be rigging the matches. But what the MM does instead is build teams that have nothing to do with skill, and it just lets the chips fall where they may. The MM is random with regards to skill, and random is the opposite of rigged.

View PostQuisicalGod_GW, on Aug 04 2018 - 01:23, said:

It all comes down to mindset ladies and gents. If you're having a bunch of bad games, take a break. If you're doing really well, still take a break. Dont get overconfident and doom your team for your mistake, but also don't damn you team mate who makes that poor choice in a game for the same thing you may have very well done yourself. Try and bring up your fellow tanker, not damn them or yourself.

You may think that you're helping the people who get upset about the game, but you're really feeding into their paranoia and conspiracy theories. There is no rigging in the WoT MM, some days you just have good or bad luck, and every player gets the same amount of good & bad luck. The only difference between players is what each player does with that good or bad luck, it has nothing to do with rigging because that rigging does not exist.


Edited by Pipinghot, Aug 04 2018 - 14:25.


GenPanzer #12 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 12:02

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XVM is like alcohol. Some can handle their XVM, but most cannot. This game should not and does not need XVM. WG should do anything and everything to rid this game of XVM.

_Gungrave_ #13 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 12:13

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View PostGenPanzer, on Aug 04 2018 - 12:02, said:

XVM is like alcohol. Some can handle their XVM, but most cannot. This game should not and does not need XVM. WG should do anything and everything to rid this game of XVM.

 

Should probably make that to where its only getting rid of it while in a match but not removing its useful functions like session stats that work off XVM.

Deputy276 #14 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 12:44

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View PostChristojojo, on Aug 04 2018 - 00:37, said:

XVM is not for short minded players. IT is a helpful tool. IT tells me who to aim for and who not to  trust on my team. a 40% player after 10k or so game sis not to be trusted a 49%+ or so player with a good win rate in his/her current tank is not a worry. But what worries me is the arty with 59% win rate in the arty he/she is playing. Saying to a team laced in its own blood (just recently I had 9 players at or below40% for all their  games) I might say hoping above alll hopes that they read and learn. Dont rush out and die it hasn't worked for you in the past, why do it again? Do not blame xvm on quitters they have quit every game i played some times fo rht elame thing as they didn't like the map they were on other times because of the team had two more deaths than they liked other because of the comments

 

Thing is, nowadays, all those win rates and teal-purple colors don't really give a good indicator of the player's abilities. Sometimes it does and sometimes those purple-teal guys seem to just yolo and die. Almost like they don't like the makeup of the team or the chance to win, so they just say [Edited] it. But I don't think giving priority to teal-purple players is a good idea. Most folks that have been around a while, and even some new players, know from YouTube how to artificially "prop-up" those stats/colors if they really want to. It doesn't necessarily make them better players.  

Dadrox #15 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 13:37

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View PostFractured_Raptor, on Aug 04 2018 - 01:12, said:

I don't see why XVM is even allowed. WarGaming said that unless the information is readily available to a player in the battle ... it's illegal. To my knowledge you can't just look at the match and tell who is what color, not without that mod. So are they being hypocrites? 

 

The "colors" are assigned by XVM to indicate the probable competency of a given player so at a glance without having to read the numbers you can get an idea of the player's ranking.

Some modders even have expanded scales of additional colors for a finer grained ranking for the OCD minded players.  It's merely a convenience for the player running XVM.

 

If you look at the rainbow of visible light from a prism it matches the order for rankings of colors from low to high.

 

 


Edited by Dadrox, Aug 04 2018 - 13:45.


GeorgePreddy #16 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 13:46

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View PostGenPanzer, on Aug 04 2018 - 08:02, said:

XVM is like alcohol. Some can handle their XVM, but most cannot. This game should not and does not need XVM. WG should do anything and everything to rid this game of XVM.

 

MOST can handle XVM and a FEW cannot is closer to the truth.

 

Thinking like yours is what got prohibition instated... and we all know how that turned out (for those who don't know, it caused the biggest crime wave America has ever seen).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



heavymetal1967 #17 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 14:15

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Like other tools XVM can be used incorrectly and abused.

 

One thing many folks overlook when they see those lesser hued players is that XVM shows overall not recent. 

 

Granted the individual tank rating(s) can mitigate, for lack of a better word, that issue somewhat.  But there is a reason folks call it XVM camo.



Bavor #18 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 16:30

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View PostFractured_Raptor, on Aug 04 2018 - 03:12, said:

I don't see why XVM is even allowed. WarGaming said that unless the information is readily available to a player in the battle ... it's illegal. To my knowledge you can't just look at the match and tell who is what color, not without that mod. So are they being hypocrites? 

 

You can look up player stats during the countdown or during battle.  That information is readily available on many web pages and the WoT players lookup page.  That's why XVM is legal according to Wargaming.  You can also estimate a player's stats based on clan tags.  After you play for a while you can estimate a player's stats on how they are playing.  Wargaming also has said that if information is available with communication with team mates, its legal.  Your arty player or KV-2 player, etc... has time between shots to ALT+TAB to the web browser and look up players stats.

 

There are also mods that load the Wargaming player stats(WoT PR and win rate) for you instead of XVM.    Those are legal.

 

World of Warships had a mod that made a list of the players on your team and the enemy team in battle and showed their stats from the WoWS player page on a separate web browser page.  It automated the process for you.  That was legal according to Wargaming.



SporkBoy #19 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 18:05

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That win % number from XVM is a lie. Dont believe the lies.

Anything that causes players to suicide out of the gate points to a problem with those players.



Bavor #20 Posted Aug 04 2018 - 18:16

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View PostSporkBoy, on Aug 04 2018 - 12:05, said:

That win % number from XVM is a lie. Dont believe the lies.

Anything that causes players to suicide out of the gate points to a problem with those players.

 

The old XVM win percentage was pretty accurate if you looked at the data over hundreds or thousands of battles.  I don't know if anyone analyzed the new win chance mod yet which is just the difference in WN8 between the teams.







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