Jump to content


And people think the LefH is overpowered...

M44

  • Please log in to reply
59 replies to this topic

Duqe #21 Posted Sep 02 2018 - 11:49

    Major

  • Players
  • 27058 battles
  • 8,520
  • [BE_ER] BE_ER
  • Member since:
    06-19-2011

All artillery is broken, some are overpowered while being broken.

 

You are free to disagree, just like how people are free to think the earth is flat and vaccines cause autism. But like those people, you shouldn't be allowed to think so dangerously as you do.



I_QQ_4_U #22 Posted Sep 02 2018 - 16:35

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 21313 battles
  • 5,576
  • Member since:
    10-17-2016

View PostDuqe, on Sep 02 2018 - 11:49, said:

All artillery is broken, some are overpowered while being broken.

 

You are free to disagree, just like how people are free to think the earth is flat and vaccines cause autism. But like those people, you shouldn't be allowed to think so dangerously as you do.

 

Only problem is that the term 'overpowered' gets thrown around to mean anything someone doesn't like, not it's actual meaning, something SPG's definitely don't fall into.

Flarvin #23 Posted Sep 02 2018 - 16:52

    Major

  • Players
  • 53647 battles
  • 15,122
  • Member since:
    03-29-2013

View PostDuqe, on Sep 02 2018 - 05:49, said:

All artillery is broken, some are overpowered while being broken.

 

You are free to disagree, just like how people are free to think the earth is flat and vaccines cause autism. But like those people, you shouldn't be allowed to think so dangerously as you do.

 

The rectal pain is real. lol



I_QQ_4_U #24 Posted Sep 02 2018 - 16:58

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 21313 battles
  • 5,576
  • Member since:
    10-17-2016

View PostEmperorJuliusCaesar, on Sep 02 2018 - 11:46, said:

 

So "good" that it's getting nerfed according to WG.

 

They never said they were nerfing it, just keeping an eye on it. I think it may be the best SPG in the game tier for tier(in a field that mostly sucks) but I don't understand why people always think that just because something is good or even best, means it needs to be nerfed. Basically the M44 is middle of the road, all the things that make up it's performance are average, a jack of all trades. The only stats that it excels in over the other tier 6's are gun elevations and traverse limits with the latter being the biggest plus. Everything else is on par with it's peers.

black_colt #25 Posted Sep 04 2018 - 16:10

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 4006 battles
  • 2,822
  • Member since:
    01-11-2015

View PostDuqe, on Sep 02 2018 - 02:49, said:

All artillery is broken, some are overpowered while being broken.

 

You are free to disagree, just like how people are free to think the earth is flat and vaccines cause autism. But like those people, you shouldn't be allowed to think so dangerously as you do.

 

Are you so unsure that your opinion cannot withstand review and criticism that you need to lash out at others and call them names?

 

Please prove your statement that ALL artillery is broken in a cogent, concise and relevant matter.

 


Edited by black_colt, Sep 04 2018 - 16:47.


black_colt #26 Posted Sep 04 2018 - 16:50

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 4006 battles
  • 2,822
  • Member since:
    01-11-2015

View PostI_QQ_4_U, on Sep 02 2018 - 07:35, said:

 

Only problem is that the term 'overpowered' gets thrown around to mean anything someone doesn't like, not it's actual meaning, something SPG's definitely don't fall into.

 

Excellent call-out in regards to the term [over-powered] - in your opinion what would make each class of vehicle over-powered?

Duqe #27 Posted Sep 04 2018 - 19:31

    Major

  • Players
  • 27058 battles
  • 8,520
  • [BE_ER] BE_ER
  • Member since:
    06-19-2011

View Postblack_colt, on Sep 04 2018 - 16:10, said:

 

Are you so unsure that your opinion cannot withstand review and criticism that you need to lash out at others and call them names?

 

Please prove your statement that ALL artillery is broken in a cogent, concise and relevant matter.

 

 

I've been dying on this hill for 7 years now, artillery apologists haven't revised their arguments once in that time, so I'm not willing to hear the fallacy-ridden crap any longer to be honest.



vinnybagadonuts #28 Posted Sep 04 2018 - 19:36

    Captain

  • Players
  • 29836 battles
  • 1,281
  • [STRNG] STRNG
  • Member since:
    06-14-2011

ive always been amused to hear folks use the term broken...as if they themselves designed the game and those pesky people employed by wargaming somehow "broke" their design by implementing something thats been in existence since the beginning.

 

sure it sucks to get shot by someone you cant see, hide from, or shoot back at...but its not like artillery is a new development...nor one that is going away anytime soon.

 

Just like those that repeatedly cry about premium ammo....just because the game isnt designed around your idea of "perfect" and or  doesnt conform to the way you think it should to maximize your ability to play against the other team does not make it broken.

 

 

 

 


Edited by vinnybagadonuts, Sep 04 2018 - 19:38.


Trauglodyte #29 Posted Sep 04 2018 - 19:49

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 20159 battles
  • 3,197
  • [GSH] GSH
  • Member since:
    06-04-2016

View PostI_QQ_4_U, on Sep 02 2018 - 16:58, said:

 

They never said they were nerfing it, just keeping an eye on it. I think it may be the best SPG in the game tier for tier(in a field that mostly sucks) but I don't understand why people always think that just because something is good or even best, means it needs to be nerfed. Basically the M44 is middle of the road, all the things that make up it's performance are average, a jack of all trades. The only stats that it excels in over the other tier 6's are gun elevations and traverse limits with the latter being the biggest plus. Everything else is on par with it's peers.

 

The combination of alpha, reload, general speed, gun elevation, gun arc, and cost make it broken.  It is like the Grille at tier 5 - it can fire over everything with a massive alpha only it has a wide enough arc to where it doesn't have to reposition to fire and it is stupidly fast.  WarGaming typically hammers SPGs that have turrets/semi-turrets/wide gun arcs because of the advantage that it gives.  This is why the GW Panther is trash, at tier 7 and why the M53/M55 has less DPM than the GW Tiger while having similar alpha.  The combination of speed and gun arc demands an overall nerf in performance.  In this case, though, the M44 doesn't have the nerf.  Truth be told, the reload on the M44 should be about 23 seconds, give or take, to compensate for its positives.  The SPG is, by definitely, acceptable outside of one lever being pulled which needs to be DPM.

 

View Postblack_colt, on Sep 04 2018 - 16:50, said:

 

Excellent call-out in regards to the term [over-powered] - in your opinion what would make each class of vehicle over-powered?

 

This is such a large question that I'd say that it is impossible to answer.  You could argue that high tier Russian Mediums are OP because of their combination of alpha, speed, soft gun stats, and turret armor along with the small sizes of maps and dedicated engagement areas.  Does that make the tank OP or is it the combination of variables?

 

In the case of this discussion, the M44 is OP compared to its peers.  The Russian SU should have its DPM because it has a retarded gun arc and the Bert, while having a bit too high of DPM, is also acceptable because of the lack of daze effect and the gnat like damage.  In comparison, the leFH (which is actually a German tank but whatever) is both broken and OP because it has stupid armor, stupid vision, stupid reload, and two types of ammo that no other SPG has access to in the game.  THAT makes it both.  Why they haven't fixed that is beyond me.  It is probably the same reason that WG doesn't resize the E25 despite continuously selling it multiple times a year.



black_colt #30 Posted Sep 04 2018 - 19:53

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 4006 battles
  • 2,822
  • Member since:
    01-11-2015

View PostDuqe, on Sep 04 2018 - 10:31, said:

 

I've been dying on this hill for 7 years now, artillery apologists haven't revised their arguments once in that time, so I'm not willing to hear the fallacy-ridden crap any longer to be honest.

 

Ok - so no cogent, concise, and relevant statements from you on why ALL artillery is broken so that a discussion can occur.

Double_O7 #31 Posted Sep 04 2018 - 19:55

    First lieutenant

  • -Players-
  • 5956 battles
  • 650
  • Member since:
    01-29-2012

View Postrazzi123, on Aug 31 2018 - 17:19, said:

Pref mm or not, a good lef player can still (and fairly reliably) dictate if a side falls or not, and more often than not dictate the game.....(I have personal experience as i have a leafblower and just came out of a match with a topgun in it on province)

Province is a map built for arty, and I still hate it. Does anyone agree with that?



Double_O7 #32 Posted Sep 04 2018 - 19:57

    First lieutenant

  • -Players-
  • 5956 battles
  • 650
  • Member since:
    01-29-2012

View PostI_QQ_4_U, on Sep 02 2018 - 09:35, said:

 

Only problem is that the term 'overpowered' gets thrown around to mean anything someone doesn't like, not it's actual meaning, something SPG's definitely don't fall into.

They don't need a nerf, except maybe the leafblower. Their numbers per battle need to be reduced though 



Trauglodyte #33 Posted Sep 04 2018 - 20:03

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 20159 battles
  • 3,197
  • [GSH] GSH
  • Member since:
    06-04-2016

View PostDouble_O7, on Sep 04 2018 - 19:57, said:

They don't need a nerf, except maybe the leafblower. Their numbers per battle need to be reduced though 

 

As an artillery player, I've long argued for 2 per side with only 1 per side on the small maps.  And, Grand Battles needs a max of 3x if that many.  Haven't played GB yet so I don't know how artillery plays there - pulled back from SPGs after I unlocked the GW E100 to concentrate on other tanks.

black_colt #34 Posted Sep 04 2018 - 21:09

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 4006 battles
  • 2,822
  • Member since:
    01-11-2015

View PostTrauglodyte, on Sep 04 2018 - 10:49, said:

 

The combination of alpha, reload, general speed, gun elevation, gun arc, and cost make it broken.  It is like the Grille at tier 5 - it can fire over everything with a massive alpha only it has a wide enough arc to where it doesn't have to reposition to fire and it is stupidly fast.  WarGaming typically hammers SPGs that have turrets/semi-turrets/wide gun arcs because of the advantage that it gives.  This is why the GW Panther is trash, at tier 7 and why the M53/M55 has less DPM than the GW Tiger while having similar alpha.  The combination of speed and gun arc demands an overall nerf in performance.  In this case, though, the M44 doesn't have the nerf.  Truth be told, the reload on the M44 should be about 23 seconds, give or take, to compensate for its positives.  The SPG is, by definitely, acceptable outside of one lever being pulled which needs to be DPM.

 

 

This is such a large question that I'd say that it is impossible to answer.  You could argue that high tier Russian Mediums are OP because of their combination of alpha, speed, soft gun stats, and turret armor along with the small sizes of maps and dedicated engagement areas.  Does that make the tank OP or is it the combination of variables?

 

In the case of this discussion, the M44 is OP compared to its peers.  The Russian SU should have its DPM because it has a retarded gun arc and the Bert, while having a bit too high of DPM, is also acceptable because of the lack of daze effect and the gnat like damage.  In comparison, the leFH (which is actually a German tank but whatever) is both broken and OP because it has stupid armor, stupid vision, stupid reload, and two types of ammo that no other SPG has access to in the game.  THAT makes it both.  Why they haven't fixed that is beyond me.  It is probably the same reason that WG doesn't resize the E25 despite continuously selling it multiple times a year.

 

M44

 

Just did a quick comparison of stock Tier VI artillery and the M44 does not seem to be over-powered overall for the tier.

 

Why?

 

DPM is only about 3% above average for the tier.

Damage is average for the tier.

Dispersion is average for the tier.

 

Some of the other values are higher than the others but not by more than 10 percent with the exception of Arc-Left and Arc-Right.

 

So for the M44 to be overpowered the following question must be answered:

 

Do the significantly higher Arc-Left and Arc-Right make the vehicle significantly better in terms of in-game play? 

 

If so, then the argument that it is overpowered is very strong. 

If not, then it is not overpowered.

 

Remember each player has different play-styles in-game for each vehicle so their perspective will be different depending on this.

 

LeFH18B2

 

The LeFH18B2 has significantly higher values in multiple categories compared to Tier VI - e.g. DPM and access to other ammo types - but has significantly lower values for Forward Speed, Reverse Speed, Power/Weight, and Radio Range. 

 

So for the LeFH18B2 to be overpowered the following question must be answered:

 

Do the significantly lower mobility and radio range offset the DPM, lower Tier, and access to other ammo types to make the vehicle significantly better in terms of in-game play?

 

If so, then the argument that it is overpowered is very strong. 

If not, then it is not overpowered.

 

Remember each player has different play-styles in-game for each vehicle so their perspective will be different depending on this.


Edited by black_colt, Sep 04 2018 - 21:10.


Boxhawk #35 Posted Sep 04 2018 - 21:10

    Major

  • Players
  • 31190 battles
  • 3,574
  • Member since:
    04-23-2012

View PostTrauglodyte, on Sep 04 2018 - 13:49, said:

 

The combination of alpha, reload, general speed, gun elevation, gun arc, and cost make it broken.  It is like the Grille at tier 5 - it can fire over everything with a massive alpha only it has a wide enough arc to where it doesn't have to reposition to fire and it is stupidly fast.  WarGaming typically hammers SPGs that have turrets/semi-turrets/wide gun arcs because of the advantage that it gives.  This is why the GW Panther is trash, at tier 7 and why the M53/M55 has less DPM than the GW Tiger while having similar alpha.  The combination of speed and gun arc demands an overall nerf in performance.  In this case, though, the M44 doesn't have the nerf.  Truth be told, the reload on the M44 should be about 23 seconds, give or take, to compensate for its positives.  The SPG is, by definitely, acceptable outside of one lever being pulled which needs to be DPM.

 

 

This is such a large question that I'd say that it is impossible to answer.  You could argue that high tier Russian Mediums are OP because of their combination of alpha, speed, soft gun stats, and turret armor along with the small sizes of maps and dedicated engagement areas.  Does that make the tank OP or is it the combination of variables?

 

In the case of this discussion, the M44 is OP compared to its peers.  The Russian SU should have its DPM because it has a retarded gun arc and the Bert, while having a bit too high of DPM, is also acceptable because of the lack of daze effect and the gnat like damage.  In comparison, the leFH (which is actually a German tank but whatever) is both broken and OP because it has stupid armor, stupid vision, stupid reload, and two types of ammo that no other SPG has access to in the game.  THAT makes it both.  Why they haven't fixed that is beyond me.  It is probably the same reason that WG doesn't resize the E25 despite continuously selling it multiple times a year.

The GW Panther is by far the best tier 7 arty.  IF it had the camo rating of the M44 it would be borderline op.



vinnybagadonuts #36 Posted Sep 04 2018 - 21:36

    Captain

  • Players
  • 29836 battles
  • 1,281
  • [STRNG] STRNG
  • Member since:
    06-14-2011
camo rating is super important for artillery too!

Trauglodyte #37 Posted Sep 04 2018 - 21:38

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 20159 battles
  • 3,197
  • [GSH] GSH
  • Member since:
    06-04-2016

View PostBoxhawk, on Sep 04 2018 - 21:10, said:

The GW Panther is by far the best tier 7 arty.  IF it had the camo rating of the M44 it would be borderline op.

 

I hate the GW Panther.  I can't explain what it is but it is the ONLY German SPG that I have to actually fight against to play.  So, my opinion is biased by my performance in it.

black_colt #38 Posted Sep 04 2018 - 21:49

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 4006 battles
  • 2,822
  • Member since:
    01-11-2015

View Postvinnybagadonuts, on Sep 04 2018 - 12:36, said:

camo rating is super important for artillery too!

 

Thanks for the call-out.

 

So How Does This Affect the Argument for the M44?

 

The M44 does not lead in any category - Stationary, Moving, and Firing - which should significantly weaken any argument that it is overpowered at Tier VI.

 

So How Does This Affect the Argument for the LeFH18B2?

 

The LeFH18B2 is significantly less then any of the Tier VI artillery which should significantly weaken any argument that it is overpowered.



Hurk #39 Posted Sep 05 2018 - 01:05

    Major

  • Players
  • 54952 battles
  • 17,373
  • [KGR] KGR
  • Member since:
    09-30-2012

the reason why the M44 is excellent is because its good enough in everything and has no weaknesses.

also for tier 6, it has good damage potential, which really matters for HE, and its why the 105 guns suck... too much of their damage is lost into overcoming armor, while the 155 does all that then more and has real impact. 

 

 

the fact it rides above the line for soo many players is extremely telling, meanwhile, i dont think there are any arty that people 55% + are doing well in, so the dive at the end is expected. 

 

except the lefh:

its just OP since all other arty were nerfed so they do not counter its impact properly. 

 

compare it against the other french arty: 

thats what most arty look like now... under powered and useless. 



black_colt #40 Posted Sep 05 2018 - 15:45

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 4006 battles
  • 2,822
  • Member since:
    01-11-2015

View PostHurk, on Sep 04 2018 - 16:05, said:

the reason why the M44 is excellent is because its good enough in everything and has no weaknesses.

also for tier 6, it has good damage potential, which really matters for HE, and its why the 105 guns suck... too much of their damage is lost into overcoming armor, while the 155 does all that then more and has real impact. 

 

 

the fact it rides above the line for soo many players is extremely telling, meanwhile, i dont think there are any arty that people 55% + are doing well in, so the dive at the end is expected. 

 

except the lefh:

its just OP since all other arty were nerfed so they do not counter its impact properly. 

 

compare it against the other french arty: 

thats what most arty look like now... under powered and useless. 

 

Thanks for the cogent, concise, and relevant post - very insightful.  Appreciate the graphs which help me understand your points.

 

 


Edited by black_colt, Sep 05 2018 - 16:38.






Also tagged with M44

1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users