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[ST] IS-3A Inverse Autoreloader


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DaDoomTurtle #21 Posted Sep 10 2018 - 16:59

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View Post_Zero___, on Sep 10 2018 - 10:29, said:

 

I would truly enjoy having some more premium or high tier tanks with autoloaders or autoreloaders. It is one of my favorite mechanics in the game. Would be pretty sweet.

 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE autoloaders. Have yet to play any autoreloaders, but I'm grinding my way there. However, I think with the way Wargaming has balanced things, I'm kind of worried what they'll do if they add Soviet autoloaders/autoreloaders. The Russian lines are good enough, but too many autoloaders/autoreloaders would make the lines of other nations less unique, as well as disrupting balance. I want to keep Czechoslovakia, France, and Italy as the only countries with highly mobile autoloading meds and light tanks with autoloaders (this is only applicable to France). Also, if there are more tanks like the AMX 30 1er prototype, that would be lovely. I like very mobile tanks that have good firepower. They're fun and help reduce the amount of static games where it's a giant campfest.

Gnomon #22 Posted Sep 10 2018 - 17:06

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View PostBavor, on Sep 10 2018 - 08:01, said:

I remember reading about the actual testing of the autoloader mechanism in the IS-3.  The shells would detonate prematurely killing the crew.  Is that going to be included in the game also?

 

 

Are you saying that if you fire on shot you have to wait 18 seconds for it to reload, but if you fire all 3 shots the first one is ready in 12 seconds?  That would be the opposite of the Italian tanks.  Having the 18 second reload for single shot mode would be painful to play.  Especially when you are popping out to shoot higher tier tanks and only have time to expose yourself for one shot at a time.  With tier 8 tanks being bottom tier an overwhelming majority of the time this could be awful until matchmaking is fixed.

 

For the first part of your question, I am honestly unsure at this time. We are only currently testing the base inverse autoreloader mechanic, and we are still in the very early phases of testing that. If it is decided that this mechanic will go into the game, it would be announced in a later post or release.     

 

So, let me see if I can explain it a bit. With the Italian tanks, if you fully empty your clip, the first shell that goes back into the magazine will take the longest amount of time to reload. Then, your fancy Italian tank will reload the next shell faster. For the inverse autoreloader on heavies, it is the opposite. If you empty your clip, your reload time is quicker and then progressively takes longer with each shell.

 

Let me know if that makes sense at all :)

 

 



DaDoomTurtle #23 Posted Sep 10 2018 - 17:17

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View PostThatTrafficCone, on Sep 10 2018 - 10:56, said:

I kinda like this. I'm guessing if it goes well we'll see the system added to the Obj. 257, Obj. 260, and the IS-7? IIRC, these tanks did have a kind of conveyor-belt style ammo rack in the back of the turret that the loader could fill with shells, making them easier for him to load manually. I suppose this would be an implementation of that system then?

 

Any chance there will be additional experiments with the autoreloading mechanic to test if the second shell has the lowest reload speed? When the Italian tanks were being tested, I made a post over here discussing such a system. If the goal is to facilitate an aggressive playstyle, then I've proven that a 2/1/2 system would probably be most ideal (rather than a 3/2/1 being tested here on the IS-3A or the 1/2/3 with the Italians). Basically, your tank's DPM is poor if you fire only the first shell, or if you empty the entire drum. But if you can keep the gun singing, making sure not to shoot that final shell for as long as you can, then your DPM will actually go up.

 

^^^This is exactly what I fear: More Soviet higher tier heavies with autoreloaders. I think it would be quite difficult to balance them, and I'll be against it, but it's Wargaming after all. I mean, if they choose to, I wouldn't mind, but at the end of the day, I think there are other nations that deserve some love. Plus, I want to keep the autoloaders and autoreloaders unique to each nation. What would be the point of playing other lines if there are Russian heavies armor, mobility, and an autoloader/autoreloader? Why would I want to play a Batchat if we get the T-62 with an autoloader/autoreloader, or a T-64 with one? The Batchat will have more camo and mobility, but the Soviet meds are better rounded and far more flexible, not to mention the fact that they are well-armored.

 

As for your second point, I find it very interesting and would like to see how it would turn out if it were to be the case. I doubt that the average WoT player would take much advantage of this though. So far, most players in autoreloaders I've met will play it almost as a single-shot, just popping off a shot or two while playing passively, until they are forced to fire more than one. Others play too aggressively and tend to just dump their entire clip at once, even when it's not nearly enough to kill the enemy. It's pleasant for me, because I know I can then push my luck and finish them off, but in terms of how these special game mechanics were intended to be used, it's often going to waste. I can't wait to get to the Italian autoreloaders though. It's a crying shame I didn't have the time to participate in the Progetto 65 Marathon. :(



churchill50 #24 Posted Sep 10 2018 - 17:36

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Personally, I find this idea quite interesting, and to be fair the IS-3A does need a little love these days.

However, in my opinion, this type of inverse-autoreloader could be quite broken. Allow me to try to explain why.

In the Italian tanks, you always have to make a choice. Do you keep your magazine mostly full and go single-shot, or do you dump your clip and deal with the horrible reload. That means that you always have to balance damage now versus possible damage in the future and decide which is more valuable.

With this kind of setup, you don't have that choice. Your best choice in almost all situations is to fire all the shells at the beginning of an engagement and then go single-shot for the rest of the engagement, since doing that does not mean that you have to incur the horrible reload on the first shell.

Basically what this means is that the IS-3A can play like a single-shot heavy, but always have that 1,170 burst damage at the beginning of an engagement. Or, to put it another way, it can play like an autoloading heavy that dumps its clip but never has to reload. That seems slightly broken to me.

 

However, we should still wait for the results of the test. Maybe it could be tweaked in some way to prevent it being broken, while still maintaining the interesting idea of the inverse-autoreloader. Or, maybe it already is balanced by its current stats, and I'm just overreacting. Only time and testing will tell.

 

Regardless, I'm interested and excited by these changes, even if I do think they need to be handled with care.

Thanks for keeping us updated Gnomon. It's always nice to be kept abreast of changes.



Gothraul #25 Posted Sep 10 2018 - 18:47

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I have to ask when is the next tank marathon seeing that we didn't get the Action X marathon that EU has gotten?

__WarChild__ #26 Posted Sep 10 2018 - 19:09

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View PostGothraul, on Sep 10 2018 - 11:47, said:

I have to ask when is the next tank marathon seeing that we didn't get the Action X marathon that EU has gotten?

 

That was already announced and is in the news for later this month (like a few days it starts).

churchill50 #27 Posted Sep 10 2018 - 19:18

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View Post__WarChild__, on Sep 10 2018 - 11:09, said:

 

That was already announced and is in the news for later this month (like a few days it starts).

 

Really? Could you give me a link. I missed it.

YANKEE137 #28 Posted Sep 10 2018 - 19:55

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Marathon? Not on this page https://worldoftanks.com/en/content/guide/events/

Front_Towards_Enemy1 #29 Posted Sep 10 2018 - 20:09

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Here's an idea...fix the Matchmaking first instead of trying to come up with some new way to make money. The crummy Matchmaking is driving more people away from the game

Avalon304 #30 Posted Sep 10 2018 - 20:45

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This sounds interesting to me. I like the idea of a heavy having an autoreloader that forces you to keep it empty if you want the highest possible DPM, making you really have to choose between burst and DPM.

Bavor #31 Posted Sep 10 2018 - 22:05

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View PostYANKEE137, on Sep 10 2018 - 10:27, said:

The T-62 had/has an autoreloader too. T-62 could use some magic sauce since it gets passed up for the Object 140 by most everybody.

Buffing up old tanks might help attract old players back too.

 

If I remember correctly, in real life the T-62 didn't come with an auto reloader.  It was later tanks that had them and it was really slow.  It was slower than manual reloading.

 

There was a TD based on the T-62 with an auto reloader, but it looked nothing like a T-62 and also had ATGMs.



vyle02 #32 Posted Sep 11 2018 - 06:13

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It could work, but having that kind of damage and your fastest reload time with an empty clip is very hard to balance, you'd have to give the tank horrific dpm with an empty clip to compensate, then the tank would either be really good in a battle or really bad, there wouldn't be much of an in between.

CapPhrases #33 Posted Sep 11 2018 - 07:58

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View PostDaDoomTurtle, on Sep 10 2018 - 11:17, said:

 

^^^This is exactly what I fear: More Soviet higher tier heavies with autoreloaders. I think it would be quite difficult to balance them, and I'll be against it, but it's Wargaming after all. I mean, if they choose to, I wouldn't mind, but at the end of the day, I think there are other nations that deserve some love. Plus, I want to keep the autoloaders and autoreloaders unique to each nation. What would be the point of playing other lines if there are Russian heavies armor, mobility, and an autoloader/autoreloader? Why would I want to play a Batchat if we get the T-62 with an autoloader/autoreloader, or a T-64 with one? The Batchat will have more camo and mobility, but the Soviet meds are better rounded and far more flexible, not to mention the fact that they are well-armored.

 

agreed, we don't need the russian tree stealing more playstyles.



Vampiresbane #34 Posted Oct 03 2018 - 23:00

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Personally, IS3a (or any tank) shouldn't get an inverted or regular autoreloader.  The appeal to the Italian tanks is that it's a balanced idea AND it's fun.  There's no good way to balance an "inverted autoreloader."

 

Let's say I have an IS-3, how the heck do I get an advantage over the IS3aR?

1. Fight face to face? Nope, he'll unload 3 shots and I'll be almost dead.

2. Trade shots? Nope, he'll just empty his clip.  If he pens JUST ONE extra shot, he'll out damage me and kill me.

3. Let him empty his clip into allies? Nope, because then if I rush him, he still have roughly the same dpm.


 

There's no good way to attack someone with a clip mechanic like that.


 

If you have to, just give the IS3a an autoreloader, but for heaven's sake, don't do this inverted autoreloader thing.  It'll just end up being the next "Defender" and I'll have to finally quit this game.

Then it's a race to the bottom for the WG balancing department: how badly overpowered can a premium tier 8 be before we lose our entire playerbase?



Wirbelfeld #35 Posted Nov 04 2018 - 18:52

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Can we at least nerf the alpha and give it a 100mm. 390 burst three times at tier 8 is just too much. Thats nearly 1200 in 6 seconds.

Hellsfog #36 Posted Nov 04 2018 - 20:37

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View PostWirbelfeld, on Nov 04 2018 - 12:52, said:

Can we at least nerf the alpha and give it a 100mm. 390 burst three times at tier 8 is just too much. Thats nearly 1200 in 6 seconds.

 

Even worse, after the 1200 burst, it looks like the reload is about the same as a regular IS-3. Every other reloader has a penalty for dumping the entire clip, this one does not. At least, that is now it looks at the moment. 

Wirbelfeld #37 Posted Nov 04 2018 - 22:16

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View PostHellsfog, on Nov 04 2018 - 19:37, said:

 

Even worse, after the 1200 burst, it looks like the reload is about the same as a regular IS-3. Every other reloader has a penalty for dumping the entire clip, this one does not. At least, that is now it looks at the moment. 

 

Yeah there is literally no downside to having an autoloader. The italian tanks have really bad dpm if you shoot all your shots, this one, once you burst, youre just a regular is-3

shrineking1 #38 Posted Dec 20 2018 - 15:41

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So to start I would like to say that Autoloaders bring a fun element to game play for the individual playing them. I really like the Progetto and enjoy the IS-3A even more so as the design is more combat friendly. 

 

If just evaluating the tank itself I think the idea and design is wonderful. If I were to consider everything else in the game along with match experience I would say there are far to many high fire power tanks with speed that is breaking the game. While there is a lot of belief that matches go so bad so quick due to player experience and skill the truth is the level set of these skills and experience has most likely not changed but what we do know that has is the tanks and what is available. 

 

I would like to see every nation receive respect and some love by bringing out tanks equally good to all other nations. For example in my opinion every nation should have a Super Heavy, Heavy TD, Stealth TD, Brawling Medium, Sniper Medium, Active Scout, Passive Scout, Artillery, and a mobile/dmg heavy. Of course this may draw away from historical principles of the game and actual history of the nations as well but in truth there are a lot of tanks that never even made it to assembly in this game so whats the harm. 

 

The continued push for high dmg output and mobility in the game is in turn risking creating the event of quick one sided matches more often than not. 






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