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Scouts that don't scout


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GHR1227 #41 Posted Nov 01 2018 - 16:49

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Another reason for not scouting in a light: Maps that cannot BE scouted without runing into a wasp nest b/c nothing can support you. 

 

Empire Boarder and new version of Pilsen come to mind where there are too many tight spots to scout and no way to support the light. 

Troll maps like Prokhorovka/Firey Salient where you cannot (out)spot an enemy as a light even with 490m view (greater than 445 max spotting) which should in theory out spot bushes and cover of all but something like an E25 or S1 epecially when they fire.  OR city maps like say Himmelsdorf which is kinda pointless given how small that map is.  It's also not really useful to scout a map that is only 600m across and can be lit by most everything like Ensk.  Going field is kinda pointless unless you want to die.

 

The scouting hayday has long passed.  You sure cannot passive scout anymore.  Used to be able to scout on Malinovka.  You cannot anymore.  Everyone knows the scout spots and either blind fires or rushes them.  Wargaming removed/reduced the size of the cover bushes. 

 

The "magic" bush on Prokhorovka is no longer magic. You just get dead for using it.    Also, scouts are *supposed* to retain full camo value while moving and not firing.  *NOPE!*   I get out spotted all the time by TDs and Russian Heavies out to 400m while playing AMX1375, LTTB, or T54ltwt.


Edited by GHR1227, Nov 01 2018 - 16:50.


EmperorJuliusCaesar #42 Posted Nov 02 2018 - 03:38

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View PostDerJager, on Sep 16 2018 - 16:00, said:

Proposal:

 

Add metric to the code, time spent within proximity of the enemy, and time spent with the enemy in view.

 

 

If either metric does not hit a certain threshold and damage to the vehicle is not received, the light tank driver should be fined half of their credits on the account, and half of the experience on the light tank in question.

 

 

 

[edited]getting real old real quick. 

 

NEVER gonna happen.  Get over it and grind your own crew skills.  If a light tank won't scout for someone.....it's probably because he knows they are BAD and it's pointless.  If someone didn't do their job early in the game as a heavy....why should the scout help him out at the end?  I'd use you as bait, lol.



EmperorJuliusCaesar #43 Posted Nov 02 2018 - 05:58

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View PostPipinghot, on Sep 16 2018 - 21:21, said:

View PostDerJager, on Sep 16 2018 - 04:00, said:

Proposal:

 

Add metric to the code, time spent within proximity of the enemy, and time spent with the enemy in view.

 

If either metric does not hit a certain threshold and damage to the vehicle is not received, the light tank driver should be fined half of their credits on the account, and half of the experience on the light tank in question.

 

[edited]getting real old real quick.

Horrible idea, not to mention rather selfish.

 

1) How people play in public battles is their business, not yours.

2) You play 320 battles per year, there's nothing in this game that you can say is "getting old real quick".

3) You haven't played any battles in a light tank above tier IV, you have no idea how light tanks really work at higher tiers.

 

You need to get better informed about how the game works. Scout tanks don't exists simply to make the game better for you.

 

Nailed it!



EmperorJuliusCaesar #44 Posted Nov 02 2018 - 06:14

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View PostDerJager, on Sep 17 2018 - 07:20, said:

Tank that prompted this was a T71 (right up their with the best view range in the game) hiding BEHIND the TD's, clearly bunkered down in a bush on Pilsen, while an enemy T71 lit everyone up from the coal piles and arty was hammering us.

 

 

For all the nuts complaining that a light does not necessarily mean a scout, this is true, but the rest of them also fill a much needed antiscout role (or in the case of the HWK, a light TD for some reason). The T71 was doing neither.

 

Best scout I have right now is a Panther II (which was not being played in the relevant match). But the number of people who just post up and camp in a tank manifestly unsuited for the roll is becoming ridiculous.

 

Definitely didn't used to be this bad.

 

If the team was crap and it was an auto-loss, meh, it happens.  In addition, there's ALWAYS going to be stat padders and that is a stat-padding tank.  [edited]'ing about it isn't gonna help, isn't gonna change their playstyle.  Just deal with it and move on. 

 

HWK a light TD?  What?  I loved to play it as a light tank and even 2 marked it, no reason to not play it as a light.  It, unlike the tank before it has good acceleration and speed.

 

MM is absolutely trash, the camping is partly because of that.  Until we start getting balanced matches or stat shaming goes away, it will continue. 



EmperorJuliusCaesar #45 Posted Nov 02 2018 - 06:19

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View PostGHR1227, on Sep 17 2018 - 11:20, said:

How about wargaming stop making light tanks that are hunter-killers not scouts?  ie the T49 is a horrible scout, but it's still expected to do

that duty especially if it's only scout on the team.   ELC-bis is another example of a poor scout, scout tank.   There are lots of others these are

off the top of my head.

 

T49 is a great scout if you don't suck at scouting.  I scouted for over 10k in it....the only shot I got that game was the final shot of the match a "coup de grâce" on the Jagaroo.  Team was very happy as was my platoon mate, as was I, it was my LT 15.3. 



EmperorJuliusCaesar #46 Posted Nov 02 2018 - 06:26

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View PostGHR1227, on Nov 01 2018 - 22:49, said:

Another reason for not scouting in a light: Maps that cannot BE scouted without runing into a wasp nest b/c nothing can support you. 

 

Empire Boarder and new version of Pilsen come to mind where there are too many tight spots to scout and no way to support the light. 

Troll maps like Prokhorovka/Firey Salient where you cannot (out)spot an enemy as a light even with 490m view (greater than 445 max spotting) which should in theory out spot bushes and cover of all but something like an E25 or S1 epecially when they fire.  OR city maps like say Himmelsdorf which is kinda pointless given how small that map is.  It's also not really useful to scout a map that is only 600m across and can be lit by most everything like Ensk.  Going field is kinda pointless unless you want to die.

 

The scouting hayday has long passed.  You sure cannot passive scout anymore.  Used to be able to scout on Malinovka.  You cannot anymore.  Everyone knows the scout spots and either blind fires or rushes them.  Wargaming removed/reduced the size of the cover bushes. 

 

The "magic" bush on Prokhorovka is no longer magic. You just get dead for using it.    Also, scouts are *supposed* to retain full camo value while moving and not firing.  *NOPE!*   I get out spotted all the time by TDs and Russian Heavies out to 400m while playing AMX1375, LTTB, or T54ltwt.

 

Prokhorovka is a GREAT light tank map.  Easy 5k minimum every game.  I had my best game ever in WoT on that map, 11.6k spotted and 2.6 damage done(check my service record for proof).

 

Pilsen....again easy.....as for Empire's border...I've just finished 3 10s this week so I've not got to play light tank on that map yet. 

 

If you can't passive scout, that's a you thing.  I have no problem doing it for the 1st half of the battle, then going active as needed.  Malinovka.....spotted 10k.....easy to spot 3-5k on.  Again, it's a you thing.  Yes, it's pretty bs they shrank the scout spots to where it's easy to blind fire them now.  Demand a fix....

 

As for getting spotted....the longer the game goes on....the more crew skills people will have on their tanks.....it's just part of it.



GHR1227 #47 Posted Nov 02 2018 - 07:36

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View PostEmperorJuliusCaesar, on Nov 01 2018 - 23:26, said:

 

Prokhorovka is a GREAT light tank map.  Easy 5k minimum every game.  I had my best game ever in WoT on that map, 11.6k spotted and 2.6 damage done(check my service record for proof).

 

Pilsen....again easy.....as for Empire's border...I've just finished 3 10s this week so I've not got to play light tank on that map yet. 

 

If you can't passive scout, that's a you thing.  I have no problem doing it for the 1st half of the battle, then going active as needed.  Malinovka.....spotted 10k.....easy to spot 3-5k on.  Again, it's a you thing.  Yes, it's pretty bs they shrank the scout spots to where it's easy to blind fire them now.  Demand a fix....

 

As for getting spotted....the longer the game goes on....the more crew skills people will have on their tanks.....it's just part of it.

 

I have scouted in my 59-16 on Malinovka and Prokhorovka actually did LT15 for the StugIV and T28HTC missions on those two maps..   

One as a passive scout in he bushes/tree line and the other doing figure8s. With a pair of pro clan team mates who shot everything I spotted I was set and lucky.

 

But as power creep of over-powered camo rating tanks (eg STRV S1, Progetto, E25) has come into the game those same maps no longer are as good to scout on.   I have tried to go to that tree line in 59-16 recently and I was some how out spotted and derped before I got positioned.  I suspect wargaming has made gaps in the bushes making their camo value lower.

 

The base camo rating of some tanks is so high even a scout with >max 445 view range (ever point of which is supposed to count against enemy camo rating) cannot out spot them thus scouting is a risky and unrewarding business in may more cases than it used to be.    The poke-spot is countered by the poke-snap shots that so many players do.  Scouting requires being lucky and praying to RNG that you are neither like or if you are that you block a shot most of which can one shot you.



EmperorJuliusCaesar #48 Posted Nov 02 2018 - 08:18

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View PostGHR1227, on Nov 02 2018 - 13:36, said:

 

I have scouted in my 59-16 on Malinovka and Prokhorovka actually did LT15 for the StugIV and T28HTC missions on those two maps..   

One as a passive scout in he bushes/tree line and the other doing figure8s. With a pair of pro clan team mates who shot everything I spotted I was set and lucky.

 

But as power creep of over-powered camo rating tanks (eg STRV S1, Progetto, E25) has come into the game those same maps no longer are as good to scout on.   I have tried to go to that tree line in 59-16 recently and I was some how out spotted and derped before I got positioned.  I suspect wargaming has made gaps in the bushes making their camo value lower.

 

The base camo rating of some tanks is so high even a scout with >max 445 view range (ever point of which is supposed to count against enemy camo rating) cannot out spot them thus scouting is a risky and unrewarding business in may more cases than it used to be.    The poke-spot is countered by the poke-snap shots that so many players do.  Scouting requires being lucky and praying to RNG that you are neither like or if you are that you block a shot most of which can one shot you.

 

My secrets are only known to LT drivers within the Empire of Rome. I didn't make it to 23rd on the server for no reason :-)

RickEdwards #49 Posted Nov 02 2018 - 13:29

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See, there are time you wanna be scouting and times when it is pointless or impossible without dying; In those times you wait until you have a chance. Like I had a game on prok where I did very little spotting in the beginning (because there were 2 fv4005 so it was simply too dangerous to poke near the 1-2 line and the middle had people spotting already). In these times, you snipe while you wait until you can be more useful. Long story short, I ended that game with 7200 spotting damage; the game would have been lost if I had tried to scout in the beginning because I likely would have died.

WeSayNotToday #50 Posted Nov 02 2018 - 19:19

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View PostDerJager, on Sep 16 2018 - 10:00, said:

Proposal:

 

Add metric to the code, time spent within proximity of the enemy, and time spent with the enemy in view.

 

 

If either metric does not hit a certain threshold and damage to the vehicle is not received, the light tank driver should be fined half of their credits on the account, and half of the experience on the light tank in question.

 

 

 

[edited]getting real old real quick. 

 

Scouts that don't scout are irritating, and frequently not helping their team as much as they think they might be.

 

Threshold/ punishment?  Not such a great idea.  Losing from getting out-scouted, and thus earning less experience, is motivation enough; we ARE trying to keep people involved in the game.

View PostPipinghot, on Sep 16 2018 - 15:21, said:

Horrible idea, not to mention rather selfish.

 

1) How people play in public battles is their business, not yours.

 

Actually, this is a TEAM game, how you play is everybody's business that is on your team.  No way around that.  Now, your teammates may not have good ideas, or may not be good at expressing any ideas they have, and you may NEED, or WANT, to ignore them, but the point remains, how you play is your team's business.

 

Scouts that let the OPFOR out-scout them are not really helping the team.

 

View Postdunniteowl, on Sep 16 2018 - 16:18, said:

Proposal:

 

You play your tank the way you think best

 

 

.... and, hopefully, this is in a way that benefits and/ or enables your team, and is aimed at winning...

 

Block Quote

 and, when folks don't live up to your expectations, take a short breath and chillax, m'kay?

 

.... always a good idea.

 

 

Look, "You play your tank the way you want, and I will play my tank the way I want to as well," is a good coping mechanism for bad teams and different understandings of what is tactically needed in the next few minutes, but it is an attitude that can help the OPFOR.

 

Instead of punishing scouts that don't scout, highlighting and improving teamwork would be excellent.

 

I realize, this is part of the OP's original aim, yet, the negative aspect of punishment might easily drive people away, or just drive people away from playing scouts/ light tanks, even more.



Pipinghot #51 Posted Nov 03 2018 - 00:57

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View PostWeSayNotToday, on Nov 02 2018 - 13:19, said:

View PostPipinghot, on Sep 16 2018 - 15:21, said:

Horrible idea, not to mention rather selfish.

 

1) How people play in public battles is their business, not yours.

Actually, this is a TEAM game

Except no, it's really not. At most it's team'ish, but not truly a team game.

 

If you want true, honest-to-goodness teamwork then play skirmishes & CW, but in public battles people can play however they want. You may not like how they play, I may not like how they play, but as long as they're not afk, not tk'ing and not cheating it's none of your business how they play. In public, random battles people have the right to enjoy the game on their own terms, now how you think they should play. Simply put, you are not the boss of them. The only player you have the right to control is yourself.

 

At most, you temporarily have a mutually shared interest with 14 strangers whom you have never met, who don't play the same as you, and who each have their own ideas about the best way to play the game. If you don't like their ideas, that's too bad, you have 30 seconds to convince people of how to play that battlle, and then you do your best. That's it, it is not truly a team game.

 

Real teams train together, real teams practice together, real teams know each other and are able to communicate effectively during games, and that's not how pub battles work.

View PostWeSayNotToday, on Nov 02 2018 - 13:19, said:

how you play is everybody's business that is on your team. No way around that. 

Good luck with that. Feel free to tell your "teams" how to play in every battle and see how far it gets you.

 

Again, the only player you have the right to control is yourself.

View PostWeSayNotToday, on Nov 02 2018 - 13:19, said:

Now, your teammates may not have good ideas, or may not be good at expressing any ideas they have, and you may NEED, or WANT, to ignore them, but the point remains, how you play is your team's business.

Scouts that let the OPFOR out-scout them are not really helping the team.

Well you definitely have the right to hope that they'll do the right thing, and you have the right to talk to them and hope they listen. But if they don't then it's still none of your business, they have every bit as much right to be there and play the way they want to as you do.



JTM78 #52 Posted Nov 04 2018 - 08:23

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Look 9.18 KILLED LIGHT TANKS!!!!!!!!!! When WoT decided to make light's and medium's view range the same per nation and tier. WoT has removed scouting with that change. If I can play a medium with more health, more pen, more armor and the same view range, why would a light tank scout?

WoT needs to give light tanks back their role as scouts but they won't because they don't care.

RickEdwards #53 Posted Nov 04 2018 - 16:17

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View PostJTM78, on Nov 04 2018 - 08:23, said:

Look 9.18 KILLED LIGHT TANKS!!!!!!!!!! When WoT decided to make light's and medium's view range the same per nation and tier. WoT has removed scouting with that change. If I can play a medium with more health, more pen, more armor and the same view range, why would a light tank scout?

WoT needs to give light tanks back their role as scouts but they won't because they don't care.

 

I mean, the on the move camo rating really shouldn't be underestimated; if anything, the real issue is TDs getting max view range and being able to out-spot light tanks. If anything makes an LT useless it's getting out-spotted by an STRV in a bush and still not being able to spot it even while it is shooting. But yeah, to an extent, mediums make better scouts than light tanks... I made a post about how to fix this issue with light tanks actually being scouts: http://forum.worldof...ore-meaningful/



AZandEL #54 Posted Nov 04 2018 - 17:24

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View PostDerJager, on Sep 16 2018 - 09:00, said:

Proposal:

 

Add metric to the code, time spent within proximity of the enemy, and time spent with the enemy in view.

 

 

If either metric does not hit a certain threshold and damage to the vehicle is not received, the light tank driver should be fined half of their credits on the account, and half of the experience on the light tank in question.

 

 

 

[edited]getting real old real quick. 

 

4k games lol. Here's a better idea. Uninstall. No one wants a net nanny game. If the game metric doesn't encourage good games then it will die.

FearTheBadger #55 Posted Nov 06 2018 - 16:51

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just learning to get the hang of playing a scout tank since I need it to complete the lite tank missions.  From what I noticed if a scout tank (lite tank) can still be spotting an helping and is still alive half way through the match I think the lite is doing there job.

RickEdwards #56 Posted Nov 06 2018 - 17:14

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View PostFearTheBadger, on Nov 06 2018 - 16:51, said:

just learning to get the hang of playing a scout tank since I need it to complete the lite tank missions.  From what I noticed if a scout tank (lite tank) can still be spotting an helping and is still alive half way through the match I think the lite is doing there job.

 

Mostly, yeah; if the scout can be spotting things throughout the whole game, that is ideal though... Being a good scout is knowing when you can spot things without dying and knowing where your support can actually shoot and spotting enemies there.




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