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Cluster muinitions would solve most of the problems with high tier Arty by capping damage


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GRINCH7777 #21 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 02:26

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View Post_Promote_Synergy_, on Oct 09 2018 - 12:04, said:

The main fix to arty right now would to be limiting them to only 1 in pub battles. In clan wars you can use them to dig out camps and crack turtle defenses, so no arty limits there. The notion that arty stops camping in pubs is laughable.

 

The stun mechanic sucks at the moment because the blast radius' of the arties are so large. If the stun mechanic or blast radius was brought down a little, the current arty is fine(ish). In my eyes arty accuracy or aim time needs a nerf because they are way to accurate at the moment. It takes no skill to do mostly well in arty.

 

What you suggested isn't a good idea OP, but it opens up a discussion that arty is pretty annoying for the player base.

 

....I play arty a lot....i would gladly agree to remove the stun feature and give me back the old damage maximums.

AZandEL #22 Posted Oct 11 2018 - 03:35

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View PostDogg_zilla, on Oct 09 2018 - 18:11, said:

What are you even talking about?

 

Camping is a problem in all modes, and they already reduced accuracy by a huge amount. 

 

And stun would be eliminated if they changed the type of round. 

 

So yes, it answers what you talked about. 

 

Why is camping a problem - because it slows games down to 5 minute matches instead of 2mins? Because its what many TDs are supposed to do? Never got that argument. 

n4cer67 #23 Posted Nov 07 2018 - 21:31

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View PostDogg_zilla, on Oct 10 2018 - 13:33, said:

Arty already does loads of damage. 

 

Thats the whole problem. We dont need to make it worse. 

 

Cluster munitions would level the playing field by making sure there is a maximum amount of damage possible regardless of class. 

 

 

 

Spg's are supposed to do loads of damage but have huge reload and aim time to other classes. There is no such thing as a level playing field and cluster munitions would do nothing but add another nerf to the SPG's.

EmperorJuliusCaesar #24 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 03:53

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View PostDogg_zilla, on Oct 10 2018 - 01:00, said:

There are like 2000 threads about removing the arty. 

 

But nobody can find a solution anyone can agree on. I think this kind of eliminates the biggest complaint, which is lighter vehicles being obliterated in one shot. 

 

Hell, the tier X arty can even obliterate many tier 9 heavies. 

 

This eliminates the ability to do that without removing the ability to counter the heaviest vehicles. It hits them all for the same. 

 

There are 2000 threads because there are a lot of people who are lazy drivers, and there's many campers as well as damage farmers.  If lighter vehicles are getting hit, they are usually sitting still or driving in a straight line.  I have every tier 10 light tank and every premium light tank....yet I've been killed less than 5 times by arty.  If you play arty you will know early which tanks are gonna be easy targets as they are lazy drivers.  I don't play arty much anymore but if there's a choice between a camping Italian tank or a unicum constantly rocking his tank.....I'm not gonna waste my shot when he's constantly rocking RANDOMLY.  But yeah, I know where the snipers are gonna be sitting back chai sniping and will on some maps blind fire it and others wait until they are spotted.

 

Thankfully WG has stated that the issue is over to them and there won't be more changes coming to arty.  PLAYERS must adapt to the game, not the game adapt to them.



EmperorJuliusCaesar #25 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 04:03

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View PostDogg_zilla, on Oct 11 2018 - 02:33, said:

Arty already does loads of damage. 

 

Thats the whole problem. We dont need to make it worse. 

 

Cluster munitions would level the playing field by making sure there is a maximum amount of damage possible regardless of class. 

 

 

 

Yeah, no.  You'd see WAY more type 5s and Mice.  Give them back their damage and pen and they'll go back to whittling down heavies and super heavies again.  People cried for change.....well....they got it.

RickEdwards #26 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 04:22

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View PostEmperorJuliusCaesar, on Nov 09 2018 - 03:53, said:

 

There are 2000 threads because there are a lot of people who are lazy drivers, and there's many campers as well as damage farmers.  If lighter vehicles are getting hit, they are usually sitting still or driving in a straight line.  I have every tier 10 light tank and every premium light tank....yet I've been killed less than 5 times by arty.  If you play arty you will know early which tanks are gonna be easy targets as they are lazy drivers.  I don't play arty much anymore but if there's a choice between a camping Italian tank or a unicum constantly rocking his tank.....I'm not gonna waste my shot when he's constantly rocking RANDOMLY.  But yeah, I know where the snipers are gonna be sitting back chai sniping and will on some maps blind fire it and others wait until they are spotted.

 

Thankfully WG has stated that the issue is over to them and there won't be more changes coming to arty.  PLAYERS must adapt to the game, not the game adapt to them.

 

I think it's worth mentioning that many arty players xvm snipe... I play light tanks and fast mediums the majority of the time at tier 10 and whenever I am spotted I expect arty to shoot at me and always drive unpredictably. That being said, arty still shoots at me almost every game, and, with their massive splash, no matter how unpredictable I am, most of those shots are close enough to do at least 200 damage. Back to the xvm sniping thing; there's no nice way to say this, but of course you are not focused with a 45% winrate... Not that I have the best stats or anything, but I think my wr is like 54%. It makes a huge difference.

 


EmperorJuliusCaesar #27 Posted Nov 09 2018 - 04:41

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View PostRickEdwards, on Nov 09 2018 - 10:22, said:

 

I think it's worth mentioning that many arty players xvm snipe... I play light tanks and fast mediums the majority of the time at tier 10 and whenever I am spotted I expect arty to shoot at me and always drive unpredictably. That being said, arty still shoots at me almost every game, and, with their massive splash, no matter how unpredictable I am, most of those shots are close enough to do at least 200 damage. Back to the xvm sniping thing; there's no nice way to say this, but of course you are not focused with a 45% winrate... Not that I have the best stats or anything, but I think my wr is like 54%. It makes a huge difference.

 

This has already been proven wrong in two ways.  Unicum youtubers have ran the "arty damage log" mod and shown that they take little to no more damage from arty than others.  Secondly, the number of players with XVM has been tracked as well.  Only around 30% of all players run XVM and less than 5% of arty players have it.  Arty focus has been shown to be nothing more than confirmation bias. 

Nice attempt at stat shaming there, but anyway.  I'm glad I have XVM camo, if they saw my recents maybe I'd get some of this proven imaginary "focus".  You get shot at because arty shoots what's spotted.  If you're in a soft tank, you might get more shots headed your way.  Thank the arty whiners that got arty nerfed for that one.



d3xdt3_IRL #28 Posted Nov 11 2018 - 23:36

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The cluster munitions idea proposed is similar to my air-burst mechanic that I have proposed several times.  WG is almost guaranteed to suggest that cluster munitions were not available during WWII and discard it due to historical inaccuracy (which is hilarious given that a third of the vehicles are loose interpretations based on blueprints or prototype vehicles).  Anyhow, my suggestion is very similar in that an air burst occurs which rains shrapnel down on the target(s).  This shrapnel is distributed across the aim circle and while I have suggested a uniform distribution for ease in implementation, a Gaussian distribution would make more since.

 

Anyhow, lets say that a T-92 HMC has a potential shell damage of 2250 (returning to the old parameter) and we are using a uniform damage distribution model.  The arty player spots a Type 5 and fully aims in on it with no other vehicles in the aim circle.  They fire and when the air burst occurs, the Type 5 is occupying 60% of the aim circle.  As a result, the Type 5 receives a very deterministic 1350 damage.   Now lets say that 5 vehicles are grouped together.  In order to damage all 5 vehicles, the arty would have to increase the altitude of the air burst.  This would be achieved by aiming in until the aim circle is just encompassing the 5 vehicles and as a result, the 5 vehicles likewise occupy the same 60% of the aim circle area.  The same 1350 damage is caused, but now it is spread across the five vehicles rather than any one.  This would make it virtually impossible for arty to one shot any vehicle in the game while allowing the game play to more accurately depict artillery in real life, or at least as implemented on the M110A2 that I served on during Desert Storm.



dunniteowl #29 Posted Nov 12 2018 - 00:29

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View PostEmperorJuliusCaesar, on Nov 08 2018 - 21:41, said:

 

This has already been proven wrong in two ways.  Unicum youtubers have ran the "arty damage log" mod and shown that they take little to no more damage from arty than others.  Secondly, the number of players with XVM has been tracked as well.  Only around 30% of all players run XVM and less than 5% of arty players have it.  Arty focus has been shown to be nothing more than confirmation bias. 

Nice attempt at stat shaming there, but anyway.  I'm glad I have XVM camo, if they saw my recents maybe I'd get some of this proven imaginary "focus".  You get shot at because arty shoots what's spotted.  If you're in a soft tank, you might get more shots headed your way.  Thank the arty whiners that got arty nerfed for that one.

 

Just reviewed your recents.  Sir, you probably should retract this entire thing.  That is not XVM Camo from what I can see.

I'll grant the last few weeks has seen mine do a bit of a dip as well, but your current recents are BELOW your overalls in most categories.

 

I play arty a lot.  The difference between my recents and yours is: Yours are Red and Mine are Green.  I wouldn't be talking like this quoted post before I checked my own to avoid making such an embarrassing set of statements on one's own behalf.

 

The stats regarding the YouTubers and such?  I have no idea how true that is, though I would certainly appreciate some linked citational evidence.

 

I wouldn't normally stick my nose into something like this, however, I also do like honest, factual and consistent statements being used, no matter which side of the argument one stands.  Your statements with regard to that small "chest beating" above do not fit at least ONE of those qualifications.

 

 

OvO



dunniteowl #30 Posted Nov 12 2018 - 00:48

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View Postd3xdt3_IRL, on Nov 11 2018 - 16:36, said:

The cluster munitions idea proposed is similar to my air-burst mechanic that I have proposed several times.  WG is almost guaranteed to suggest that cluster munitions were not available during WWII and discard it due to historical inaccuracy (which is hilarious given that a third of the vehicles are loose interpretations based on blueprints or prototype vehicles).  Anyhow, my suggestion is very similar in that an air burst occurs which rains shrapnel down on the target(s).  This shrapnel is distributed across the aim circle and while I have suggested a uniform distribution for ease in implementation, a Gaussian distribution would make more since.

 

Anyhow, lets say that a T-92 HMC has a potential shell damage of 2250 (returning to the old parameter) and we are using a uniform damage distribution model.  The arty player spots a Type 5 and fully aims in on it with no other vehicles in the aim circle.  They fire and when the air burst occurs, the Type 5 is occupying 60% of the aim circle.  As a result, the Type 5 receives a very deterministic 1350 damage.   Now lets say that 5 vehicles are grouped together.  In order to damage all 5 vehicles, the arty would have to increase the altitude of the air burst.  This would be achieved by aiming in until the aim circle is just encompassing the 5 vehicles and as a result, the 5 vehicles likewise occupy the same 60% of the aim circle area.  The same 1350 damage is caused, but now it is spread across the five vehicles rather than any one.  This would make it virtually impossible for arty to one shot any vehicle in the game while allowing the game play to more accurately depict artillery in real life, or at least as implemented on the M110A2 that I served on during Desert Storm.

 

Actually Cluster Munitions WERE used in WWII.  Butterfly bombs were used in France and during the Blitz on Britain.  Russians also used Cluster Munitions in WWII.

 

What were they, though?  They were bomblets that dropped onto the ground (essentially mines) with proximity fuses, for the most part.  They were only actively deployed during battle in rare instances.  Most cluster munitions were also, during WWII delivered by aircraft.  (Yes, I looked it up the other day when I first decided to read this thread's OP).

 

Cluster munitions were primarily used to deliver Mines and Proximity Bomblets that were intended to explode during troop movements, NOT during battle.  Their other primary uses were as incendiary devices or leaflet delivery.  From the article in Wikipedia, it appears that very few were fired from ground artillery until during the Korean War.  Even to this day, the primary delivery system of Cluster Munitions is airdrop.

 

Most guns in WoT are TOO SMALL for Cluster Munitions.  Usually around 155m and larger.

 

You can read about it here:  Cluster Munition

 

After reading the article, one would have to come away with the idea that THIS IDEA is BAD for the game in the same way that the Real Deal is addressed by the Convention on Cluster Munitions, who's objective is:

 

The Convention on Cluster Munitions is a humanitarian imperative-driven legal instrument which prohibits all use, production, transfer and stockpiling of cluster munitions. In addition, it establishes a framework for cooperation and assistance to ensure adequate assistance to survivors and their communities, clearance of contaminated areas, risk reduction education and destruction of stockpiles.

 

Cluster Munitions are, like using general poisons, too indiscriminate to be trusted.  You really want someone's splash damage from a misdirected (even if it's off map and ordered) swath of delivered bomblets to strike an entire area that, when you called for it was All Red Team, but by the time it got there is now All Green Team occupied?


How will you deal with proximity fuzes and shaped charges?  Are you just going to ignore all that in favor of getting rid of an SPG from the game?

 

Not me, man.  I'll take the current splash, stun and power of SPGs without the CM, thank you.  Cluster Munitions are a BAD Idea™.

 

 

OvO

 



Ich_bin_Hass #31 Posted Nov 12 2018 - 18:11

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View Post_Promote_Synergy_, on Oct 09 2018 - 12:04, said:

The main fix to arty right now would to be limiting them to only 1 in pub battles. In clan wars you can use them to dig out camps and crack turtle defenses, so no arty limits there. The notion that arty stops camping in pubs is laughable.

 

The stun mechanic sucks at the moment because the blast radius' of the arties are so large. If the stun mechanic or blast radius was brought down a little, the current arty is fine(ish). In my eyes arty accuracy or aim time needs a nerf because they are way to accurate at the moment. It takes no skill to do mostly well in arty.

 

What you suggested isn't a good idea OP, but it opens up a discussion that arty is pretty annoying for the player base.

 

The main problem. was long ago you could get up too ten SPG's per side. Now with the advent of XVM mod pack. With artty sniper mod. That became DEATH ! But instead of just limiting artty to one or two per side. They made some artties snails that couldn't move and took their AP and heat rounds away. Then put in STUN that now everyone JUST LOVES !!!!!

 

  WG's has already SCREWED this game up so much by nerfing this tank. Not really touching ANY Russian tanks mind you. The 268 4 comes to mind. OP'ing that premium Russian heavy tank and removing maps that certain big clans and the unicums didn't like. That the more you expect them to fix something. The more they're going to SCREW UP.


Edited by Ich_bin_Hass, Nov 12 2018 - 18:16.





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